The emotion of apathy (whats the point, who cares, I give up, no matter how hard I try it never works, I cant be bothered" Taoism

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Marblehead]

Nothing really important to say at the moment.

 

The last time I had a Christian visitor she asked me, "May I tell you about Jesus?" I said, "Sure, but only if you allow me to tell you about Lao Tzu." She asked, "Who is Lao Tzu?" and I told her that he was the founder of Taoism, my belief system. She had no idea, said, "Have a nice day." and left.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Stosh]

This is usually my first response as well, but this morning something occurred to me from the Tao Te Ching that put things in a different perspective:

 

Therefore the ancients say, "Yield and overcome."

Is that an empty saying?

Be truly whole,

And all things will come to you.

 

The wisdom of Lao Tzu continually emphasizes the virtue of being like water, of going with the flow. When two forces collide there is an explosion. When one yields to force the force is dissipated. This is not an indication that one should submit to another's will, but simply that they should not be affected by the urgest of others. Karma is unfulfilled desire. Don't let others create Karma for you.

 

No I dont think it an empty saying , I think Lao was supplying an alternative paradigm to that which was ,and is ,standard operating proceedure. When one has more than a single option they have more freedom in their actions. Those that have only the one gut reaction they have already developed , they are predictable , and they have forfeited flexibility for the sentiment of certainty or for the maintenence of thier self image.

More colorfully I would say that a deer generally runs or is wary in order to impose his will on the wolf, since it is the will of the deer merely to continue living. The wolf has to engage and overcome in order to impose his will on the deer.

The yeiding aspect is that one must accept that which it is that is their situation , and accept the truth of what they are ,

and act accordingly to those circumstances,, rather than pretend that one is what one is not , or rather than pretend that if they just give up ,,,their enemy will go away or come to them as dinner.

The enemy has his reasons , just as you do

in some situations there is an inherent conflict

in other situations there is not.

 

 

I dont believe in Karma other than as an abstract idea about consequences

The wolf must eat

The deer must avoid being eaten

 

Each upheld ,undone ,by each others way

Stosh

[Stosh]

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Edited October 3, 2012 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Nothing really important to say at the moment.

 

The last time I had a Christian visitor she asked me, "May I tell you about Jesus?" I said, "Sure, but only if you allow me to tell you about Lao Tzu." She asked, "Who is Lao Tzu?" and I told her that he was the founder of Taoism, my belief system. She had no idea, said, "Have a nice day." and left.

 

Yep , thats what I mean too.

Seeing the situation , understanding the motives and manners of the enemy

Working within the scope of circumstances at hand to achieve your goal

Without creating fresh conflict.

Nicely done Mh.

 

Stosh

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Stosh]

I think folks only seem to change ( very much)

based on which of many aspects of themselves are exposed

at any given moment

Im still largely the child I was at six or eight

and he was very much the adult I am now

If other folks change significantly I cant say

since there is really only the subjective witness to

testify to the question.

Stosh

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Marblehead]

But if we are truely apathetic there is never a reason to change.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Marblehead]

... and considering that individuals will change without a true reason well it means we can't be truly apathetic ...

Logic is lacking.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[SunLover]

Again just contemplating the emotion of apathy.

 

Apathy is saying... "Im fed up of the way things are, I wish I could change them, but I feel powerless so, I wont even bother, I am a victim of life"

 

"It also says no matter how hard I try things never go how I plan, repressed anger at life being this way and a general distrust in nature and self"

 

"Feeling that you cannot achieve your goals, so whats the point of trying, the universe doesnt like me, things arent going how I wanted, I am dissapointed and resist the flow, I resist everything"

 

Apathy is in a way good, because it shows you the futility of trying too hard.The futility of believing you are fully in control, because you are not, it sheds these illusions. Yet it makes the ego feel weak.

 

Whereas if one understands the connection with everything we have no goals/desires/no expectations/no plans and no fixed ideas and thus there is no dissapointed, whatever is is what is what is, what looks bad only looks that way to fixed ideas and is furthermore a part of the universe, when we say something is bad we are not riding the wave of tao, (well we are to a certain) extent but not to the full extent. It implies trying to change which is also part of the tao yet only part of the tao if done without effort, effort usually implies seperation from the tao, so in a way effort is part of the tao yet (still an idea) less part of the tao..

 

When one trusts in self, tao, universe, and realise that nature always gets things done but never in a hurry, for example when one spontaneously moves one heals the body, this is a prime example of the power of none doing.

 

Apathy is the desire to be in control, to have power, because of a feeling of powerlessness. So this idea comes from the feeling that we ever will have control or power, not feeling part of the universe.

 

Hmmm, I don't understand. To have apathy is to be indifferent to the outcomes of anything which we do in our lives yet to have apathy is also the desire to be in control and to have power? If a man is indifferent to gaining control of his life, indifferent to gaining power over his life, how can you call such a man to be desirious of control and power over his own life?

 

Furthermore, many spiritual paths demand detachment from anything, especially detachment from the achievement of "goals" on the spiritual path. Many spiritual teachers have taught that man is too attached to his goals and thus should remove these attachments to goals. So are you teaching the reverse of what most spiritual teachers? Which is we must be attached to our goals?

[SunLover]

Because some do care...

What if what is going to happen didn't happen because of your apathy? Besides being hopeful is much better way to live...

 

What happen will happen. What will not happen will not happen. Let the Universe and Tao take control of everything and surrender control of your life to the Universe and Tao. What's there to be hopeful or unhopeful about? In the end, it is only a matter of time till we all pass away and become ashes. Why do you worry? What do you worry about? Hahahahaha...

[zanshin]

But if we are truely apathetic there is never a reason to change.

 

No intrinsic reason, yet change still happens all the time. We get pushed snd pulled, or we drift like a jellyfish. Reasons might change, but change doesn't change, not sure how often change happens for reasons even if we do have reasons. Am I still the girl I used to be? I don't know and I don't care.

[zanshin]

double

Edited October 3, 2012 by zanshin

[zanshin]

Triple, really!

 

Fortunately, I also do not care about mildly annoying technical things.

Edited October 3, 2012 by zanshin

[SunLover]

Mrs GrandmasterP runs a benevolent dictatorship.

I quite like that.

Makes for an easy life.

:-)

 

I have often imagined that if there were ever to be a world government this would be the best form.

 

Nostalgia aint what it used to be I know but, ups and downs aside; China under the emperors lasted for a heck of a long time.

Democracy is a nice idea but the problem is everybody gets to vote so you tend to end up with elected politicians who reflect the folk who put them into office.

I.e. Avaricious imbeciles.

 

Only if someone like Jesus Christ or the Buddha is the dictator. If you have George Bush or Saddam as the dictator, then shit happens. Democracy will never work because low-level humans will never understand the thought processess of higher-level humans.

 

For eg, smoking is bad for your health. But many people still smoke. Imagine a democracy which wants to eliminate smoking as an unhealthy past-time but the niccotine addicts still want to hang on to their bad habits.The addicts will vote no to freedom from addictions which will create the same old democratic paradigm where smoking still remains as an unhealthy past-time.

 

Democracy is a zero-sum game. No going forwards or backwards. The backwards people in a democracy will always pull the higher people down so to create a higher civilization, the backwards people in any democracy must be muffled and silenced.

[SunLover]

Emperor is at the top and does sod all.

Everybody can have a go at civil service exams.

Only the very best pass the exam.

They then administer.

What's not to like?

The brightest run the country using minimum interventions.

OK women can't take the exams and slaves get a bit of a rough deal but I know loads of women stuck in jobs who would give their eye teeth to be able to be kept in luxurious indolence.

As far as slavery is concerned any poor sod working a dead end job for minimum wage is no better than a slave

I'm all for elites running the place.

 

Depends on which kind of elites. Not every elite is equal. In the ideal Empire, the Emperor will open the doors to benevolent aliens who will share alien technologies and philosophies with the slaves so that slaves will never need to work as slaves again. If an Emperor claims he can create an empire where nobody ever has to work again, as a slave or otherwise, why couldn't such a benevolent dictatorship be a paradise?

[SunLover]

But if we are truely apathetic there is never a reason to change.

 

Ah but there is a difference between apathetic to change and being apathetic to outcomes of change. The former means you do nothing to change but the latter means you do everything to change but remain detached to the outcomes of change, whether they be good or bad.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Marblehead]

 

Hmmm, I don't understand. To have apathy is to be indifferent to the outcomes of anything which we do in our lives yet to have apathy is also the desire to be in control and to have power? If a man is indifferent to gaining control of his life, indifferent to gaining power over his life, how can you call such a man to be desirious of control and power over his own life?

 

Furthermore, many spiritual paths demand detachment from anything, especially detachment from the achievement of "goals" on the spiritual path. Many spiritual teachers have taught that man is too attached to his goals and thus should remove these attachments to goals. So are you teaching the reverse of what most spiritual teachers? Which is we must be attached to our goals?

Excellent post and reasoning.