Aetherous Posted September 19, 2012 Just something I contemplate sometimes...how much better life is when I don't impose my will upon anyone else. Just let them be as they are, and I am completely separate. It can be incredibly challenging to change that behavior in myself, in regard to some people. For instance, when another imposes their will upon me in a very rude way, I impose my will upon them right back in an attempt to get them to stop. Or if I see someone doing incredible harm to the world...at first it seems impossible to step back and do nothing about it. What if I was the one that stopped, and simply allowed everything to be as it is, in a very assured way? That would be amazing. Mitt Romney can be himself...my parents can be themselves...my ex girlfriends can be themselves... ...and I can be myself. I don't know...random thoughts for you today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydog Posted September 20, 2012 This is what I like about the Taoist texts. Very often we get the urge unconciously to project our desires on others... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted September 20, 2012 The idea was actually kind of cemented into my head by an obscure Christian group, believe it or not, who felt that it was sinful (or not beneficial for oneself) to ever have a say in anyone else's life but your own. Attempting to put it into real action has been the source of a lot of learning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) I think it's called not being first in the world. It's not easy, but when you can do it, a world of possibilties opens up to you. Just don't forget that in order to accomplish this you must also be able to be compassionate and also frugal, which means that you must be able to differentiate between needs and wants. This is otherwise known as following the 3 treasures. Aaron Edited September 20, 2012 by Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted September 20, 2012 Aaron, your post (not being first in the world, having compassion) reminds me of the eight verses of thought transformation... 1. With the thought of attaining enlightenment for the welfare of all beings, who are more precious than a wish fulfilling jewel, I will constantly practice holding them dear.2. Whenever I am with others I will practice seeing myself as the lowest of all, and from the very depth of my heart I will respectfully hold others as supreme. 3. In all actions I will examine my mind, and the moment a disturbing attitude arises, endangering myself and others, I will firmly confront and avert it. 4. Whenever I meet a person of bad nature who is overwhelmed by negative energy and intense suffering, I will hold such a rare one dear, as if I had found a precious treasure. 5. When others, out of jealousy, mistreat me with abuse, slander, and so on, I will practice accepting defeat and offering the victory to them. 6. When someone I have benefited and in whom I have placed great trust hurts me very badly, I will practice seeing that person as my supreme teacher. 7. In short, I will offer directly and indirectly every benefit and happiness to all beings, my mothers. I will practice in secret taking upon myself all of their harmful actions and sufferings. 8. Without these practices being defiled by the stains of the eight worldly concerns, by perceiving all phenomena as illusory, I will practice without grasping to release all beings from the bondage of the disturbing unsubdued mind and karma. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XieJia Posted September 20, 2012 not imposing the will on yourself; it wouldn't be imposing others in any other ways. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Melanie Posted September 21, 2012 Not imposing your will on others can be difficult especially when others request that you do. Being asked your opinion, desire, thoughts or even instructions then trying to answer without extending your personal will can be a challenge. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiverSnake Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) When you have a strong will or lots of charisma it becomes natural for you to dominate any particular situation...one should always be conscious of whether your acting out of egotistical reasons instead one your deeper wisdom. -My 2 cents, Peace Edited September 21, 2012 by OldGreen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Aaron, your post (not being first in the world, having compassion) reminds me of the eight verses of thought transformation... I think there is a difference between what's been taught in the eight verses and the Tao Te Ching, in particular the TTC, and we can say Lao Tzu, were proponents, not of humility so much, thinking that you were less than others, but rather of not competing with others. So it's okay to know you're good at something and recognize that and even tell people that you are good at it, but it's not okay to compete with others and strive to be the first, this is where harm arises. That's why the Zen Buddhists (Zen being heavily influenced by Buddhism) follow the idea of doing the best you can at whatever you're doing at that point in time, but at the same time being detached from it, not placing value on doing your best. The difference lies in how we present ourselves to the world. You can respect someone that says, "I strive to be the best", but not someone that says, "I am the best at this, no one else can compete!" The reason is simply that you feel no threat from the first statement, but you do the last. Even on a deeper level, the person that says I strive to be the best is exhibiting compassion and self restraint (the notion that he does not NEED to be the best), while the person who is boasting is exhibiting neither. One could say that the problem with Society, almost universally speaking, is this notion that we need to be the best and that losing is somehow a failure, when in fact we should be teaching that it's more important to give it our best than to actually be the best. So long as we are trying, then win or lose, we have done everything we could and if we do fail, we cannot blame ourselves for it. This is one reason I hate sports, because they are teaching children predatory behavior, to be the strongest and enforce their strength over others, rather than just be the best they can be. It's the major reason the majority of bullies in school are jocks. It's this idea that the strong should rule over the weak, rather than protect the weak, which is what Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu were advocating (and the Zen Buddhists too). Aaron Edited September 21, 2012 by Aaron 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raimonio Posted September 21, 2012 I've been paying alot of attention to this matter for the last three weeks. It has been eye-opening to spot all the situations where you go into the mode of selfishness and imposing your will. When I've spotted it my level of conciousness has increased dramatically in those moments and I've been able to switch the wrong pattern off by using my intention to drop it. Over the course of a few weeks the occurance of these moments has lessened. Spending time with the people who generally summon this problem within me has been much more enjoyable. It almost feels too easy and good when it works, you can just glide trough situations feeling content I think this particular topic can be approarched trough any religion. Humility is one of the main aspects of all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 21, 2012 when another imposes their will upon me in a very rude way, I impose my will upon them right back in an attempt to get them to stop. Assering my will and stand in a very courteous nice way :-) imposes on the imposers the courtesy of the courteous ways... while being courteous to the courteous. Sometimes one just got to do what one got to do Forcing tolerance unto the intolerant reflects back at them their intolerance while cultivating tolerance... of course it would be better for each to willingly embrace tolerance as their ways... though why is the tolerant to tolerate the intolerance of the intolerant? Paradoxically something similar happens in many domains... the attests feel offended at the beliefs others hold without recognizing their offices towards the beliefs of others... if there was an actual separation of the state and the religion the state would refrain from anything related to do with religion... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 21, 2012 You can respect someone that says, "I strive to be the best", but not someone that says, "I am the best at this, no one else can compete!" The reason is simply that you feel no threat from the first statement, but you do the last. Even on a deeper level, the person that says I strive to be the best is exhibiting compassion and self restraint (the notion that he does not NEED to be the best), while the person who is boasting is exhibiting neither. One could say that the problem with Society, almost universally speaking, is this notion that we need to be the best and that losing is somehow a failure, when in fact we should be teaching that it's more important to give it our best than to actually be the best. So long as we are trying, then win or lose, we have done everything we could and if we do fail, we cannot blame ourselves for it. This is one reason I hate sports, because they are teaching children predatory behavior, to be the strongest and enforce their strength over others, rather than just be the best they can be. It's the major reason the majority of bullies in school are jocks. It's this idea that the strong should rule over the weak, rather than protect the weak, which is what Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu were advocating (and the Zen Buddhists too). Aaron I feel no thread from either one... in fact I am a bit humored by the second... When someone states: "I am the best at this, no one else can compete!" I would probably state "I see you are afraid of competition, and discovering the truth" I agree with you that we should be teaching that the strong should protect the weak... I also agree that its the predatory behavior that is quite problematic in society... and see than the agrarian behavior should be cultivated... 'Competencia' --- can mean: 1- to compete or 2- ability to do something... I like the second... I think doing our best is as important as accomplishing the task... wether we, beat someone and won, or, got beaten and lost, distracts of from the important thing which is to compete, participate until we accomplish the task! The game of life is not about wining or loosing its about playing... and do note that the word 'beat' can have different meanings... if we do fail, we ought to look and see what we need to learn and do to succeed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 21, 2012 I've been paying alot of attention to this matter for the last three weeks. It has been eye-opening to spot all the situations where you go into the mode of selfishness and imposing your will. When I've spotted it my level of conciousness has increased dramatically in those moments and I've been able to switch the wrong pattern off by using my intention to drop it. Over the course of a few weeks the occurance of these moments has lessened. Spending time with the people who generally summon this problem within me has been much more enjoyable. It almost feels too easy and good when it works, you can just glide trough situations feeling content I think this particular topic can be approarched trough any religion. Humility is one of the main aspects of all. I wonder what can be done to switch the wrong pattern off by using ones intention ... as a way of shift interactions from 'the mode of selfishness and imposing (someones) will' towards understanding and embracing the right patterns and just glide trough situations feeling content How to get a teacher to correct an error they made which lowered our grade and increase their appreciation of us... rather than getting on their bad side for daring to point out the error and insisting the correction be made... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) I feel no thread from either one... in fact I am a bit humored by the second... When someone states: "I am the best at this, no one else can compete!" I would probably state "I see you are afraid of competition, and discovering the truth" I agree with you that we should be teaching that the strong should protect the weak... I also agree that its the predatory behavior that is quite problematic in society... and see than the agrarian behavior should be cultivated... 'Competencia' --- can mean: 1- to compete or 2- ability to do something... I like the second... I think doing our best is as important as accomplishing the task... wether we, beat someone and won, or, got beaten and lost, distracts of from the important thing which is to compete, participate until we accomplish the task! The game of life is not about wining or loosing its about playing... and do note that the word 'beat' can have different meanings... if we do fail, we ought to look and see what we need to learn and do to succeed Please don't engage me in conversation. I'm not particularly interested in what you have to say. I wish I could say this in a kinder way, but you tend to keep pushing (imposing your will), even though I've made it clear I would rather not talk to you. Aaron Edited September 22, 2012 by Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 23, 2012 Please don't engage me in conversation. I'm not particularly interested in what you have to say. I wish I could say this in a kinder way, but you tend to keep pushing (imposing your will), even though I've made it clear I would rather not talk to you.Aaron Some take my responses quite personally rather than focusing on the issues at hand... some even consider that I am talking to them rather than exposing a certain particular topic for all to consider... Evidently some still have to realize the stuff they keep pushing and cultivating... say how they push stuff onto others which they can't tolerate from others... (some impose their will unto others without accepting nor tolerating that others assert individual rights and impose on some limitations that ensure rights be respected)... When I am not particularly interested in some of the stuff that some individuals say I just choose to focus on what I am interested... Who am I to go asks them to not do stuff that i do myself... if I am not particularly interested in the stuff that someone post I don't replay to them. Each demonstrates what they value care and want to cultivate by what the do (and not do). Now if I am in 'a public place', say a restaurant, or even an open debate floor... and someone there states 'hey you don't you dare say something about what I am saying' because I am not interested in what you have to say... I will kindly point out that others may be interested in hearing what I have to say... even if its just one voice it suffices to enlighten the interchange... In a way some say stuff and I say stuff... the truth be self evident for all to see and determine what corresponds to the truth and what to a delusion... each then chooses which side to stand upon... will one reject the truth or embrace the truth?Oh and for the record I do not seek to impose on anyone my will... I do think it wise for each and everyone to choose and embrace the truth rather than the alternatives... but hey 'you' go right ahead and choose what 'you' want to cultivate... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted September 23, 2012 Assering my will and stand in a very courteous nice way :-) imposes on the imposers the courtesy of the courteous ways... while being courteous to the courteous. Sometimes one just got to do what one got to do Forcing tolerance unto the intolerant reflects back at them their intolerance while cultivating tolerance... of course it would be better for each to willingly embrace tolerance as their ways... though why is the tolerant to tolerate the intolerance of the intolerant? Paradoxically something similar happens in many domains... the attests feel offended at the beliefs others hold without recognizing their offices towards the beliefs of others... if there was an actual separation of the state and the religion the state would refrain from anything related to do with religion.. The following is one of my teachers... “Friendliness toward the joyful, compassion toward the suffering, happiness toward the pure, and impartiality toward the impure.” - Yoga Sutras 1:33 Sometimes I'm not a good student. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted September 23, 2012 No fun at all if we can't bend wills. That's surely 'Tao 101' [30 actually] "Use Tao to help rule people". This stuff has practical applications guys. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted September 23, 2012 No fun at all if we can't bend wills. That's surely 'Tao 101' [30 actually] "Use Tao to help rule people". This stuff has practical applications guys. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 23, 2012 No fun at all if we can't bend wills. That's surely 'Tao 101' [30 actually] "Use Tao to help rule people". This stuff has practical applications guys. Actually it being fun depends on the will ... you are right this stuff has practical applications... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 23, 2012 The following is one of my teachers... Sometimes I'm not a good student. so lets be friendly, joyful, compassionate happy pure merciful and just... liked the second quote you posted thanks... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 23, 2012 so lets be friendly, joyful, compassionate happy pure merciful and just... liked the second quote you posted thanks... Now that is asking for one hell of a lot!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted September 23, 2012 Happy I'll buy. As for those others though....... Charity begins at home. My old teacher used to say.... 'Show kindness and compassion to those who oppose you..... It drives them crazy'. Another one [i am procrastinating this evening]. Never criticise anyone until you have first walked a mile in their shoes. That way, if they don't like what you have to say; they are a mile away. Without shoes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted September 23, 2012 Happy I'll buy. As for those others though....... At least personally, I am happiest when merciful. My view is that compassion is our bliss. But maybe my heart is just weird. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 24, 2012 Happy I'll buy. As for those others though....... Charity begins at home. My old teacher used to say.... 'Show kindness and compassion to those who oppose you..... It drives them crazy'. Another one [i am procrastinating this evening]. Never criticise anyone until you have first walked a mile in their shoes. That way, if they don't like what you have to say; they are a mile away. Without shoes. That sort of reminded me of something...The planed crashed in the middle of the jungle... Outside the roar of the beasts was evident within it was just a matter of time for the plane to explode... two survivors where pondering what to take with them... one of them said wait I need to find and change my shoes, I just have to put my running shoes... the other one said you are crazy man it sound as if its ready to explode and I am not going to wait for you and jumped out the plane. A little while later the man with the running shoes caught up with the other one... as they walked the first man out the plain " you are crazy man. you took an unnecessary risk at the plain. Why in the world did you do that?" The man with the running shoes said "Well its the jungle and I need to run the fastest to stay alive". "you are crazy man. you can out run the beasts here". A loud roar was heard and a lion was running in their direction... The man with the running shoes said "Just as you did, I am not going to wait for you and I just need to be a bit faster than you to stay alive"!BTW it seem some of the stuff I sow does drive some a bit crazy ... they blame the image on the mirror on me bringing up the mirror instead of taking a close look at the mirror... if someone does not like the image they see in the mirror they better change what causes the image and generally it not the mirror... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted September 24, 2012 I'm trying this thing at the moment where I just keep watching myself. Find out in each case 'whose' 'will' is being asserted at any given time. Sometimes I feel sick when I understand just 'whose' 'will' it is. It's rarely mine arising from the present circumstances is what I'm finding. Very unpleasant indeed. Even saying this, I know it's not 'my will' but a wish to come across as a 'good practitioner'. Hahaha. Et-thoughts, has it occurred to you that your pissing some people off might not be their doing? I've seen this before on here. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
