Be done with knowledge

[Aaron]

I was in a discussion today with a friend and the topic came up regarding Taoism and Philosophy. The more I hear about other philosophies, the more I see how they are the antithesis of what Lao Tzu was advocating. Lao Tzu said everything we need to know about philosophy in one simple phrase "Be done with knowledge". In this phrase we understand that learning is, in and of itself, a harmful thing, because the vast majority of what we learn leads us away from what is natural and instead instills an artificial sense of mores and values upon us.

 

In my opinion the most important thing we can do as human beings is recognize that morality and virtue, in and of themselves, should never be defined by man, nor the mouths of men, but instead they should be expressed through the subjective experience of each and every one of us. We should not rely on a book or person to tell us what is right or wrong, but rather what our actions do.

 

I use the example of a small boy drowning in a river. If he is close by and all we have to do is walk out and grab a hold of him to save him, but we don't, aren't we just as much to blame for his death, then if we had actually pushed him in the river?

 

My problem with philosophy stems from the twisted idea that so long as we are not participating in a wrong, that somehow that absolves us from blame. We use philosophy to allow us to behave any way we choose too, to find some reason to absolve us from blame. We can say, "that boy was a muslim extremist" or "I was wearing my good clothes and he was poor" or "I was afraid he'd pull me under as well", but none of that erases the fact of what happened, it only absolves our conscience.

 

Lao Tzu understood this and it was one of the reasons he mentioned that religion and philosophy lead us from Te, our natural way of living, and instead cause more harm than good. We need to understand on a personal level that religion and philosophy are not beneficial, especially if they are teaching us to make value judgments on our actions, rather than examine our actions based upon the harm they cause others.

 

The simplest solution to this conundrum is to understand the important of the three jewels, compassion, frugality, and never striving to be first in the world. These should be the simplest things any of us could follow, yet our brains have been wired in such a way by what we've learned through school, church, temples, and the media, that we are caught up in this false need to be first, to have more than others, and to spend, even when we don't have the money to spend.

 

It's this false dichotomy that allows us to wake up every morning and say "nothing is wrong", when what we should be seeing is how little is right, but even then that's not true, because there is nothing right or wrong to begin with, and it is only our own expressed definitions of what is wrong that allows us to continue to fool ourselves into believing this is true.

 

If we can live our lives as compassionate human being, being satisfied with what we need, and not competing with others to have more or be better, then much of the harm that occurs in this world would disappear, however anyone who is of a religious and philosophical bent will tell you this can't be done? Why? Because society is incapable of it? Bah! It's simply because living in a world like this would mean there would be no rich people, that there would be no one telling others how to live, that each and every person could live as they please, so long as it didn't cause harm to others.

 

It's simple, realistic, and possible, but we are convinced that it can never be. I say the first step is waking up and being done with knowledge. Give up Christianity, Hinduism, Socrates, Sartre, Confucius, Buddhism, existentialism, humanism, and nihilism, and instead embrace living life as humans just being. Allow those natural impulses we are all born with to come forth, wash away the bigotry and hatred we've been taught, and just live, so that each of us can return to the perfect state of the child. That is where our hope lies and I hope that we are wise enough to realize it before it's too late.

 

Aaron

[i am]

Amen.

 

I mean...yes.

[XieJia]

nice post aaron, well written.

 

One question;

could one be done with be 'done with knowledge?

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Lindelani Mnisi]

Maybe we should just relocate to a deserted island and try to start the human race a new

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[GrandmasterP]

Well first get your degree, a decent job with choices and a good income.

Then be done with knowledge, once you can afford that choice.

The alternative is a minimum wage job working alongside morons for cretins or living out in the woods with the bears.

[GrandmasterP]

Or monasticism / communal living of some description and most western Taoists have more sense than to go down those repressive routes.

[Lindelani Mnisi]

Ok, so the easy, confrontational way out, is never the best way out I guess

[GrandmasterP]

Trouble is in the west we have this Xtian hangover of conflating selfishness with sinfulness. No such issues East of Suez.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Aaron]

Edited to add this reminder... 'if you choose to read this post thats your doing you do have a choice to stop at any instant and just move on..., in fact, that you are still reading this indicates your willingly choose to read it'... evidently this post was only intended for those willing to know and do stuff with knowledge of what they do always... ---

When the wise say 'be done with knowledge' the wise mean that whatever you do do it with knowledge... not that one should give up knowledge and instead embrace living life as humans just being, allowing those natural impulses we are all born with to come forth... learning is, in and of itself, learning ... if one learns harmful things or beneficial things in and of itself learning is learning... what one does with the insights now thats what determines if its beneficial or harmful.

 

To use the example of the small boy drowning in a river. If the boy drowns then the boy drowns. if we save the boy then we save the boy. Is anyone to blame for saving or not the boy (especially if there is nothing right or wrong to begin with in saving or not saving the boy)? For that matter if one saves the boy is one responsible for the atrocities that child commits latter in life? Surely if one had not interfered in the present, the atrocities would had not happened latter on.

 

Morality and virtue serve as a guiding maps to act wisely under uncertainty. By defining appropriate course of action by man, morality and virtue help to act in the moment. morality and virtue are dependent on morality and virtues not the subjective experience of individuals. The vindictive parent may feel justified in killing the murderer and all of its family but that hardly justifies it morally.

 

Oh I know that these words are not welcomed... but hey 'there is nothing right or wrong to begin with' so would my words not be welcomed to begging with? It rather simple these words reveal something that some want keep hidden... and untold...

 

Please stop posting on these topics, you're only showing others how completely ignorant you are regarding Taoism and the Tao Te Ching. I don't think you even understood what I posted. I want to be compassionate to you, but I see you as the person standing on the soapbox in front of the class telling all the other kids they need to playing with Yu-gi-Oh cards, instead of Pokemon. I'm telling the kids that they don't need to play with cards at all, that the experience of living doesn't require external stimulus or other ideas to make it worthwhile and beneficial to them and others, instead it comes from being aware of who you are and what you're doing. It comes from understanding that being kind is more important than being right, that there is no need to rationalize if you don't do any harm in the first place, and that there is no need to accumulate things if you already have everything you need.

 

The sad fact is that you've bought into everything that you've been told and never questioned anything. I bet you haven't even bothered to read the TTC yourself, rather you've read a book written about it and you really don't even have your own ideas about it, rather they are the ideas you've been told to have.

 

My question is why the hell do you feel the need to talk, if you have nothing to say that will benefit the topic? Is it just to hear yourself speak? Think about this, because I doubt anyone here can really understand how you got what you did, from what I wrote, unless you didn't actually read all of it or perhaps you're just so arrogant you don't think you need to or should have to.

 

I was told to read this post, so I did, but I wish I hadn't. All I get when I read your stuff is more confused as to how someone can come to a Taoist site and spout all the crap you do, clearly showing how little they actually know about the topic. Damn your response regarding "Be done with knowledge" was a riot in and of itself. I can't wait for you to point out the passages that support that individual heap of... well no need to go on, I think I've made my point. Since you don't wish to stay out of my conversations and topics, I'll make a point to point out where you are incorrect in your assumptions or request that you back them up using actual verses from the TTC and Chuang Tzu... which I seriously doubt you will be able to do.

 

Aaron

Edited September 24, 2012 by Aaron

[GrandmasterP]

Yes I think you are right. I made that point more with the younger posters in mind.

Wouldn't want any of them going away with the idea that Taoism condones erse sitting bone idleness or excuses ignorance and indolence. Very busy and quite often materially successful folk are Taoists. Even our hermits tend to work for their living.

[Aaron]

Well first get your degree, a decent job with choices and a good income.

Then be done with knowledge, once you can afford that choice.

The alternative is a minimum wage job working alongside morons for cretins or living out in the woods with the bears.

 

I have two degrees, BAs, and I work beside minimum wage PEOPLE, because I can't get a job with my education. This is what I'm talking about when I talk about bigotry and hate. Who taught you to resent uneducated people so much? I think living out in the woods would probably be infinitely more enjoyable that living alongside people with attitudes like yours any day. Really, I can understand that you teach philosophy, but that doesn't give you the right to talk down to uneducated people.

 

My entire issue with philosophy and religion is that they define what doesn't need to be defined. No one needs to tell someone what is right and wrong, it's simply a matter of not causing harm to yourself or others. If you can do those things, then there's no need for a complex moral code or a soliloquy about the virtue of virtue, which in and of itself is redundant, rather we can simply enjoy the life we are living here in this moment.

 

Here's a bit of something I've been thinking about, what if teachers allowed their students to come to their own conclusions, rather than tell them what to conclude? Wouldn't that be interesting? Of course it would also be moot, because we all know that at its root education is about instructing social mores and values, more than it is about fostering creativity and individuality.

 

Aaron

Edited September 24, 2012 by Aaron

[GrandmasterP]

Once you succeed in securing work that reflects and rewards your effort and intelligence then the anger will subside Aaron.

It all part of the journey and you are qualifed to take the opportunities others less fortunate cannot once those opportunities present. I wish you well and trust that shall be soon.

Cretinism and the moronic are karmic. All have their place and no one is 'better' or 'worse' than anyone else. Things and people are just as they are. You and I included.

[Aaron]

Once you succeed in securing work that reflects and rewards your effort and intelligence then the anger will subside Aaron.

It all part of the journey and you are qualifed to take the opportunities others less fortunate cannot once those opportunities present. I wish you well and trust that shall be soon.

Cretinism and the moronic are karmic. All have their place and no one is 'better' or 'worse' than anyone else. Things and people are just as they are. You and I included.

 

I would recommend that you not take that kind of tone with me. You may be under the impression that you have all the answers, but I can assure you that you don't. I am in no way frustrated because of my job, rather I appreciate that I have the opportunity to earn money and have an income. also I enjoy being around the people I work with immensely, because they are diverse and from various backgrounds.

 

I understand that this thread attacks the very foundation of your own life's work, but if you think that this is an idea I have recently come up with, you would be wrong. I have put a great deal of thought and insight into this topic and if you believe that you will be able to dissuade me from my opinion, I am sure that you are mistaken.

 

in a month or so I hope to be teaching middle school English, what I can assure you is that I will never ever tell a child that they are wrong because they came up with a different idea about a story than what other people have concluded. my desire is to teach children to be creative and to nurture there individuality.

 

I would also recommend that you think carefully before engaging me further in dialogue regarding this topic, I am not some person who just started reading the Tao Te Ching, I have studied it for over 20 years. I will always strive to be as compassionate as I am capable of each day, but that does not mean I will allow people to push an incorrect or damaging message on to others in the name of Daoism. You may know a lot about qigong, but you have a heck of a lot to learn about Daoism.

 

Aaron

[GrandmasterP]

You have passion and conviction Aaron. Those are essential attributes for effective teaching.

One has no desire for opinions posted to seem in any way more worthy than others. Accepting posts as they are rather than 'should' be; then all, surely; have equal merit.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[thelerner]

In college I was getting way to top heavy. Too many books not enough .. living, experience, doing. Put'em down worked on martial arts and life for a few years. It was good.

 

Nowadays I'll spend years collecting & reading books, then years thinking they're all bullshit and did I spend the time reading them. It's a kind of a balance I guess.

 

Reading the books and listening to lectures gives me insights and knowledge from people far wiser then I am. But unless I can assimilate the wisdom it may well be an infomercial. And I won't truly get 'it' if I'm too busy chasing other pieces.

 

 

semi random thought

On the third hand if we we say drop all ism's but Taoism we can be in danger of coming from the same space as bigots.

Edited September 25, 2012 by thelerner

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[konchog uma]

sounds like youre describing emptiness from a madhyamaka perspective

 

i won't tell anyone

[Aaron]

semi random thought

On the third hand if we we say drop all ism's but Taoism we can be in danger of coming from the same space as bigots.

 

Hello Lerner,

 

You're absolutely right and Lao Tzu advocated this as well, but most people fail to see it. In the Tao Te Ching Lao Tzu gives us each the directions we need to realize this. Take for instance the following passage from Chapter 38 (translated by John C. H. Wu)

 

 

Failing Tao, man resorts to Virtue.

Failing Virtue, man resorts to humanity.

Failing humanity, man resorts to morality.

Failing morality, man resorts to ceremony.

Now, ceremony is the merest husk of faith and loyalty;

It is the beginning of all confusion and disorder.

 

Lao Tzu gives us an intimate understanding of where the problem lies. It is humanity, but what does this actually mean? Well it means that the failing of man occurs when we begin to think as a group, rather than individuals. Lao Tzu knew that Taoism, in and of itself, was absolutely as bad as all the other -isms, but he also understood that there needed to be a link at the end of the chain to break the cycle that was repeating. That link is found within this passage, but also throughout the Tao Te Ching, it is a return to our original nature, Te, a return to the state of a babe, to begin anew, wash away all that we've learned and begin to see the world, not as a society sees it, but as an individual; an individual experiencing what happens, recognizing the wonder, doing away with the avarice and solemn acceptance of what we've been told the world is and seeing it for what it is and what we really are.

 

When we can do that we no longer need Taoism, or for that matter any other philosophy or religion, because we can begin to see who we REALLY are. We are born with compassion, frugality, and no desire to be first in the world. We just want to be fed when we are hungry, to be loved and to love, and to explore the world and understand it. How hard is it to understand this, yet no one seems to see it. Lao Tzu even said that his words were simple, but no one understood them. The reason is that we're convinced the only solutions are complex ones, that require economic and social planning, that it can't be as simple as changing the way we think and behave towards others and ourselves.

 

If we have no religion, no social mores, if we just allow ourselves to live with the innate qualities of compassion, doing no harm to other or ourselves, allowing compassion to flow like a brook through our hearts, and allowing ourselves to be happy with what we have and need, not desiring to be the manager or have the best car or biggest house, then we will be able to provide for our own needs and in so doing be able to provide for those in need as well. Is it really that difficult? Apparently so, because the notion of poverty, subsisting on only what we need and being happy seems quite alien to most. The notion of not trying to be the best at a sport or whatever we do seems to go against everything society teaches us.

 

We need only stop what we are doing and begin to appreciate our lives as they are, accept who we are for what we are, and then everything else can fall into place. How many people are willing to do this? Not many and it is threatening for many, because the notion goes against everything they've worked so hard to achieve in life, but if you can do this, then freedom can be achieved, true freedom. You will understand the real meaning of loyalty and faith, of compassion and humans being.

 

Aaron

Edited September 25, 2012 by Aaron

[Aaron]

Aaron,

 

I consider that there is a vital reason to talk an realize that being kind and being right coexist... know that I do have my own ideas about many things that come from wondering and pondering about the things not just buying into what someone has thought said or written.

 

Why to I feel the need to talk... to expose what be going on and benefit the topic... it isn't based on nothing, it's based on something... it is not to hear myself speck it is to hear the truth spoken... and embraced... Yes I did read all of what you posted and focused on the particular I consider important... from your responses now and in the past its evident you do not want to have a dialogue on the issues nor understand why I say what I say... I respect that you do not want to dialogue thats up to you... if you say 'its that way' and I say 'its this way' let what be determine who be right and who be wrong...

 

BTW who keep judging the other and alluding to arrogance and character traits rather than just focusing on the issues?

You reported you where told to read this... and apparently you where obedient and read it... and chose to judge it as crap... that your doing... as is the 'damnation expressions involving damn'... what the point in providing you the support for what I state if you will damn and choose to judge it as crap... I would welcome that you actually point where I am incorrect in my assumptions it would be a learning experience for us all... and before we get all wrapped up on the actual verses of this or that book and this or that translation lets first focus and clarify on what be that each cultivates and promotes...

 

Oh if you please be courteous and civilized... lets have a true dialogue focused on the issue...

 

I've no desire to carry on this discussion. You want me to believe what you believe, I believe you don't need to believe what I believe, but that there is an answer if you so choose. That's the difference, you're pushing an agenda, I'm advocating true freedom for each of us. Carry on with your mission and leave me be, otherwise I can dissect your ideas into little pieces and show you why they don't make sense, you'll probably get upset and then say something you wont be happy about, and then we'll both suffer, me for having caused you to suffer and you because you did something you regretted. There's an old English expression, "let sleeping dogs lie", I would suggest you don't wake up this particular dog.

 

Aaron

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Great thread!!

[XieJia]

 

We need only stop what we are doing and begin to appreciate our lives as they are, accept who we are for what we are, and then everything else can fall into place.

How many people are willing to do this?

Not many and it is threatening for many, because the notion goes against everything they've worked so hard to achieve in life, but if you can do this, then freedom can be achieved, true freedom.

You will understand the real meaning of loyalty and faith, of compassion and humans being.

 

Aaron

 

Hello Aaron, nice thoughts you have there.

 

It is naturally for water to flow to the four great oceans;

it is in man's tendency to think that he/she craves or creates; we managed to change cow's milk into cheese, yogurts and butter, which in reality in really just milk. Milk at the end of the day also rots, such as clean water gets dirtied to dirtied water.

At the end of the day, maybe us human of the society achieved something maybe we didn't.

 

In Daoism, there are places for great people; there are places for lesser men, places for thieves, places for sage, lords, beggars and such.

It is the current nature of the world, what could one do but to nurture and cultivate one selves.

In the end, maybe much is wrong with the world, maybe nothing is wrong at all.

 

I am looking forward to your thoughts.