ayahuasca

[snowmon]

Hey -

 

Has anyone on this board ever tried the stuff? I mean in a spirtitual setting with a shaman etc. I checked out a couple of vids on google and it looks kinda interesting.

 

I seem to remember reading some posts about the South American spiritual tradition here and on healingdao.com that seem somewhat negative, or that one should exercise caution. Does anyone here have any direct experience in this area?

 

I guess I feel I am sorta *glumphing* through life right now and my current practices aren't really helping me tackle some of my heavier personal issues.

 

thanks

[Yoda]

Herbal enhancements is a gap in my education, but welcome to taobums anyways!

 

-Yoda

[Taiji Bum]

Herbal enhancements fascinate me so I hope this thread gets some action. I have never used any (not even marijuana) but I have studied the South American Shamanic stuff and might try that someday. I researched Peyote and decided not to try that but the South American stuff looks different and it seems to have very consistent effects.

[Wayfarer64]

Hi Darin et al...

 

I just met a guy from the 101 recently... He told me about jumping out of planes while "tripping" as some of the very best experiences of his life. He was a recreational user- and he says most of the airborn guys were pretty zapped much of the time back then...

 

Still, for me - jumping out of a perfectly good airplane seems riskier than glomming down some shrooms. Why not give it a try? Experimentation with organics has aided many in their questing. Just have a good guide and a convivial place to take-off and land...

 

Followed by some nutritious food and a time to rest and think about the voyage...Used as a tool not a play-thing such ingestibles and their subsiquent internal cognative activities may be of some use. But it ain't for everyone...

[spyrelx]

Every time this topic comes up I am astounded at the lack of experience on this board with psychedelics. You'd think a bunch of cosmic adventurers like the tao bums would be all over this. I mean you've all proved yourselves to be seekers of the mystic, and experimenters with all manner of questionable, laughable, anti-establishment, and flat-out weird practices. Yet when it comes to drugs most of you are like "uh, no, I mean I think I SAW some marijuana at a party once . . . "

 

Sheesh people, I know most of you are Reagan-youth (or Bush-youth) but you also live in a post-1960's world.

 

FEED YOUR HEAD!

 

 

About Ayahuasca, I haven't had personal experience but I was in Latin America a few months ago and talked to a number of people who had. It's a powerful drug and has a reputation for being a bit rough to take. It's also know for having very different effects on different people. One person, who'd been to a lot of ceremonies, told me "5 people will take the same batch at a ceremony, one will fall asleep, one will vomit all night, one will shit all night, one will feel OK, one will talk with God for 8 hours".

 

In my last trip to Latin America I took part in a San Pedro ceremony. San Pedro is a cactus with hallucinogenic properties. It is, I think, chemically related to mescaline but I'm not sure. San Pedro is known as being gentler than Ayhuasca and maybe it is, but it was pretty powerful in its own right.

 

If you're going with "natural" substances, then mushrooms (various types), San Pedro, Ayhuasca, real mescaline are probably the easiest to get. In the US by far the easiest of these would be mushrooms.

 

And then there's acid, which I would reccomend to anybody looking for a psychedelic experience. Maybe not "natural" like shrooms, but from my experience, often more enjoyable.

 

Remember what the door mouse said . . .

[snowmon]

Thanks for the input!

 

BTW here's a couple o' links - a video and a place that offers the ceremony.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=49...uasca&hl=en

(there's another vid as well that's good, with Terrance McKenna - follow the links at google - but this one is a little more enteratining)

 

http://www.ayahuasca-wasi.com/

(obviously I'm not affiliated with them - this is just one place I stumbled upon while surfing)

Edited December 13, 2006 by snowmon

[thaddeus]

Every time this topic comes up I am astounded at the lack of experience on this board with psychedelics.

I think if you read the posts on here, most of us are about being more aware. Psychedelics are alot of fun, but c'mon, it's total dead end. It's probably the spiritual equivalent of reading comic books. You can talk to god for 8 hours right now, you don't need a drug to crap in your pants and believe you're communing with spirits. Even castaneda was smart enough to drop it in the 60s.

I'm not dissing ancient tribal rituals either, so don't even go there. It has it's place. If you want to go down this road, then start building an altar so you can rip people's hearts out to please those same gods too..

T

[Taoist81]

"In my last trip to Latin America I took part in a San Pedro ceremony. San Pedro is a cactus with hallucinogenic properties. It is, I think, chemically related to mescaline but I'm not sure. San Pedro is known as being gentler than Ayhuasca and maybe it is, but it was pretty powerful in its own right."

 

San Pedro contains Mescaline. It has a lower quantity than Peyote but it is the same chemical. It also has the benefit of being legal to possess in the US. As long as it is "not intended for human consumption". The same with Fly Agaric (sp?) mushrooms. As for the value of enthenogens in spiritual practice: the can be just as valuable as anything. If not the multiple societies around the globe wouldn't have found them so useful throughout the ages. Better than meditation etc.? no, but definitely a useful complement for those who are willing to use them and see them in a way other than "just for fun". It is the same with sex, food, alcohol, whatever. Anything can be a spiritual tool to someone willing to open their mind to its use in such a way.

[Wayfarer64]

Yeah I guess drinking piss makes a lot more sense than eating mushrooms. Or Sitting for days/years in a cave is more likely to stimulate your mind than trying a psychotropic substance that alters your perceptions will.

 

I am so very glad that life has not passed me by in my trepidation of the otherness and naughtyness of such activity and experimentation. I know I have reached higher levels of transcendent bliss sharing physical love with my lovers than with hours of meditation. I have gained myriad insights into the cosmic wonder of it all - beyond what I've read in books-by doing what I was scared to do...That is transcendent in itself.

 

Mind may be everything - and getting that is a pretty big deal-even if its just getting quantum theory and never meditating at all... But being alive and being a part of the world as an experienced phenominom is the real deal.

 

Being a genuine person and not a facade of projected thoughts and willfullness is being in the moment.

 

I say go stub yr toe! It is more likely to bring you enlightenment then many of the esoteric trials that just become new habits are apt to...There are no dead-ends except not trying new ways to be a better you.

 

All experience enriches, suffering or gleeful joy -So I say go, do, be, (even smoke a doobee!) be a humanbeing doing human things and pay attention to what you are feeling and thinking and what these things make you want to do next. Pay attention to your desires to understand them and keep them in perpspective. Desiring to be a man or woman in a full experience of humanity's essence offers us much more than meets the eye. Go deep within yourself to get yrself right, in a basic humble fashion. Then if ya still seek something else at least you've been a real person first.

[cloud recluse]

Snowmon,

 

if your going to roll the psychdelic dice,Ayahuasca is definetely one to have a crack at,but you might also might have a look at Iboga.Ayahuasca is a mighty & demanding purgative of both mind & body,& Iboga/Ibogaine is a lifetime of psychotherapy in one trip.Whether or not you survive it,you definetly wont be "glumphing" anymore.Your cage will be rattled BIGTIME.

 

Now this wont necessarily enhance your awareness in any yogic sense,but it will give your personal psychology one hell of a big stir !! The reconciliation of psychological material MAY free up your attention for meditation,but that assumes you have a stable practice to begin with.

 

There is definetely a psychotherapeutic value to skilled psychedelic use,& its now sheer ignorance to say otherwise.But its still VERY demanding,not at all fun if its Ayahuasca or Iboga,& its still not Yoga.

 

Though,as that Total Champion Of Awareness,Baba Ram Dass ,pointed out,you can do most yogas so that they dont really 'do' you,your cage remains intact.But quality psychedelics wont leave you any room to hide in!

 

Check out Pinchbecks BREAKING OPEN THE HEAD for a more historically recent look at the advantages & drawbacks of this stuff.Cracking read too (though his later religious obsessions give me pause).

 

Regards,Cloud

[snowmon]

Thanks Cloud for that post. Perhaps if it is really that intense I will hold off for now and continue doing my current stuff ...but I think I eventually would like to experience this...and check out the rainforest too.

Edited December 14, 2006 by snowmon

[Ian]

This is a useful book.

 

www.erowid.org is a very comprehensive site.

 

My suggestion would be never to do these things other than with a serious and sincere purpose, and to try to communicate that purpose directly to the vegetative entity(ies). Otherwise one can REALLY get one's nose rubbed in one's own frivolity.

 

I have heard, indirectly, that even some (or at least one) traditional high-level Buddhist teachers acknowledge that Ayahuasca is of a different order to other psychedelics and can be used spiritually, although it's rarely a good idea in any given case.

 

True Hallucinations is another very enjoyable book.

 

Hope helps,

I

[spyrelx]

Yeah I guess drinking piss makes a lot more sense than eating mushrooms. Or Sitting for days/years in a cave is more likely to stimulate your mind than trying a psychotropic substance that alters your perceptions will.

 

I am so very glad that life has not passed me by in my trepidation of the otherness and naughtyness of such activity and experimentation. I know I have reached higher levels of transcendent bliss sharing physical love with my lovers than with hours of meditation. I have gained myriad insights into the cosmic wonder of it all - beyond what I've read in books-by doing what I was scared to do...That is transcendent in itself.

 

Mind may be everything - and getting that is a pretty big deal-even if its just getting quantum theory and never meditating at all... But being alive and being a part of the world as an experienced phenominom is the real deal.

 

Being a genuine person and not a facade of projected thoughts and willfullness is being in the moment.

 

I say go stub yr toe! It is more likely to bring you enlightenment then many of the esoteric trials that just become new habits are apt to...There are no dead-ends except not trying new ways to be a better you.

 

All experience enriches, suffering or gleeful joy -So I say go, do, be, (even smoke a doobee!) be a humanbeing doing human things and pay attention to what you are feeling and thinking and what these things make you want to do next. Pay attention to your desires to understand them and keep them in perpspective. Desiring to be a man or woman in a full experience of humanity's essence offers us much more than meets the eye. Go deep within yourself to get yrself right, in a basic humble fashion. Then if ya still seek something else at least you've been a real person first.

 

 

 

Wayfarer 61, I agree completely.

 

 

Cloud Recluse, have you ever tried iboga or are you just talking from what you've heard/read?

[snowmon]

Thanks again for all the responses. I realize I have plenty on my plate to work with right now without blowing my mind into the stratosphere Man, that must be some wild stuff.

 

Ian - thanks for the book and web site info. Looks very interesting.

 

BTW Cloud yeah, I think Ram Dass is amazing as well (I guess you caught the *glumphing* reference). Not too long ago a friend of mine gave me a bunch of Ram Dass tapes where he just answers questions from the audience. Lots to work with there.

 

Spyrel - I see you are fellow NYC practitioner. Are you studying with any teachers right now?

[cloud recluse]

 

Cloud Recluse, have you ever tried iboga or are you just talking from what you've heard/read?

 

Spyrelx,

 

Not tried it as yet.

 

I was researching it a few years ago to help a junkie "freind" (whose since burnt & slandered me bigtime),& was so taken with it that I was also contemplating it myself (but not as a chemical dependency cure).Anyhow,my 'best laid plans' collapsed,& my life entered a phase not conducive.Its still a "test" I want to put myself through though,but its now been shelved for quieter times

 

Regards,Cloud.

[spyrelx]

Yeah, I've been interested in iboga myself, but i think you have to go to Africa to find out (or at least hang out in different circles than I do).

 

snomon, I'm not studying with anyone right now. I've decided to simplify. I took a seminar from Sifu Wong a few weeks ago and I'm doing his chi kung every morning and (sometimes) evening. I'm also trying to do about a half hour of sitting meditation a day (mostly empty mind but throwing in some Healing Tao stuff once in a while).

 

I decided I wanted to hammer away at a few simple practices and also build up my practice time, so this seemed like a way to do it. I'd like to start experimenting with a martial art in the new year, for structural alignment and exercise rather than fighting. The Sifu Wong guys in NY might start giving a kung fu class so perhaps I'll end up there.

 

Always looking for stuff though, so if you've got a class you like, do let me know.

 

Hmmm, you're in NYC? That makes you, me, thaddeus and plato? Am I missing anyone?

[Taomeow]

Cloud Recluse,

 

have you tried iboga? I researched it quite a bit but I'm not aware of it being available outside West Congo. Ibogaine, its derivative, used to be administered by a guy in Staten Island in a psychotherapeutic setting, but the FDA kicked him out eventually. In Venesuela, there's a clinic that offers it, but the price is more than steep.

 

As for ayahuaska, I know a guy who has a South American shaman fly in once a year and hold a session with a bunch of local ayahuasqueros. They've been doing it for close to two decades I think. He asserts it is not for unsupervised experimenting, a shaman has to be there and control the energy lest it run away in all the undesirable places. I tend to agree that sacred plants cannot be beneficial when used in non-sacred ways. I've met too many people who have mushroom soup for brains to believe that "recreational" use of consciousness serves any useful purpose. It is my impression that modern urbanites experimenting with these potions bear every resemblance to a neolithic man experimenting with computer use... What is missing in both cases is the first idea of what the whole culture of which this one item is an integral part is all about.

[cloud recluse]

Taomeow,

 

No I Havent actually tried it yet.In fact Ive decided to 'digest my head' in a slightly more gentle way for a while.No hacking at my skull with psychedelic crowbars any time soon,I dont really feel up to it.

 

To be perfectly honest,its a somewhat turbulent skull at the moment,so psychedelic amplification isnt really required

 

I pretty much concur with your observations on use & misuse I think.

[Taomeow]

Taomeow,

 

No I Havent actually tried it yet.In fact Ive decided to 'digest my head' in a slightly more gentle way for a while.No hacking at my skull with psychedelic crowbars any time soon,I dont really feel up to it.

 

To be perfectly honest,its a somewhat turbulent skull at the moment,so psychedelic amplification isnt really required

 

I pretty much concur with your observations on use & misuse I think.

 

 

Glad to hear it, Cloud Recluse!

 

Here's one of the stories the ayahuasquero told me about one way ayahuaska is used by the tribe he's been in contact with. In the third month of pregnancy, they start giving it to the future mother and her husband. The purpose is to enable them to hear the baby's unique song, the song of a new life. When they hear it, they learn to sing it. Then they teach it to the whole tribe, whose all members proceed to rehearse it to perfection. When the baby is born, they give her some ayahuaska and the parents and the whole tribe sing the baby's very own personal life song to her. This way the unbreakable bonds are formed right from the start, the baby knows that everybody knows and understands her, and so no one needs to be admonished to "love thy neighbor," this love is imprinted systemically and is as natural as breathing. It is a rite of acceptance and respect for the new and unique human being on the block.

To compare, when a baby is born in our culture, she gets eighteen shots of dead bugs laced with mercury and a bunch of designer petrochemicals into the blood stream. Quite a rite in its own right, don't you think?..

Edited December 19, 2006 by Taomeow

[riverheron]

hello all ~

 

I have been lucky enough to have had the opportunity to work with a female peruvian shaman in aya ceremony twice. Just to clarify, in true Daoist style, this is experience is nothing at all what your mind thinks it is before actually taking the medicine. So that clears up some issues about expectation and trepidation. Also, if you experience Ayahuasca yourself, your experience may be nothing at all like what I describe below. I just feel called to share a free flowing presentation of this spirit medicine and how it effected me.

 

I feel that it is important to realize, when working with such plant spirit medicine, that we are actually taking the Spirit of the plant into our body and consciousness. It is a symbiotic process through which the Spirit of Ayahuasca, a female presence known as the Mother Vine, moves through our body, mind and spirit. As a generalization, first she travels through our meridians, in a sense diagnosing our current state. Then she activates the Purge ~ this is when we release toxicity on every level, physical, emotional, and psychic. After the purge, often we find ourselves in a visionary state, where aspects of our life are shown to us. What needs attention in my life? Oh, I need to clean my room . . . holy order. And in my experience, I was shown how to share the transmission I recieved from my journey with others through a state of presence.

 

On another level, there is often a transportation into a realm of geometry, sound, light and fluid Oneness with all that is. This experience is beyond words.

 

And then, on another level, I experienced my Spirit dwelling in the rainforest of Peru, as the Aya spirit did her work with my body. We switched homes for a little while, and learned from one another.

 

After the ceremony, over 6 hours of the shaman singing her Icaros (magical songs of healing taught to her by the plants), there is an overwhelming feeling of Belonging * * tribal consciousness, multi-dimensional connection with Nature, other people, my family.

And a renewed sense of purpose, wholeness, dedication to grounding my lessons into the present moment of my life. My qigong practice was what helped me to integrate the lessons of Aya. into my cells, into my heart/mind. I was shown a door . . . and realized that Qigong is the path which opens the door and allows me to walk through on a daily basis. One realization came through so clearly to me ~ that my Qigong teacher, and my Peruvian Shaman are spiritual family. They are doing the same work in the world as if brother and sister. I am so thankful for both of them, and the teachings they share.

 

Ayahuasca and Qigong can be partners in the dance of life. As the great explorers of the Way that all of you are, I suggest keeping an open heart when it comes to the teachers of Nature, the plant spirits. Our culture had done much to demonize these substances as 'evil', and there are remenants of this programming in each of our cells. Perhaps the very reason that they are illegal, is because they teach us to awaken from the 'Matrix', the great dream of our society which tells us we must conform and pay our taxes so that the good war can continue.

 

Sleeping Tiger Awakes

 

Spiritual Sword slays the Demon

 

Returning Everything to the Heavenly Cave.

 

blessings and love qi,

 

riverheron

[thelerner]

Thank you for the experienced insight. I doubt the plant and experience will ever come my way and without your description if it did I wouldn't know enough to go for it. You remind us we have to meet the experience within its sacred context, not as a Westerner experimenting with a drug du jour.

 

 

 

Michael

[Wayfarer64]

River Heron!-

That was wonderful. I just came from writing my experiences as a very young child communing with the trees and animals of Connecticut back in 1957-8 or so...The oneness I feel with living plantlife, the energy bestowed as food and the wisdom found in a few psychotropic substances that plants offer us, is a large part of the deepest elements of my Taoist beliefs.

 

Being one with all is very real at times and worth many an effort to reach an understanding of how we are able to reach that state of being...

Thank you for that sharing...