Religion

[Stosh]

 

You know there is a little problem.Mr Happy from Happy Town does not seem to me the right thing, even though I might have a perverted view on what happiness really is.There is an issue which arrises from the depths of my mind.How does happiness affect my ability to attain the truth about life and how does knowing the truth affect the extent to which you are happy? They say afterall that ignorance is bliss.Why I am so full of pesimism?I don't know either.So TRUTH or HAPPINESS?

 

Seems to be a nice stretch , good to set you up for the day.I will give it a try definetely !

 

Hi Marius ,

Ill say this ,,and then you can examine it for validity....

Pessimism is an attitude like other attitudes

we develop them over time and they become habit

not everything we learn to do, or make a habit, is in our own best interests long term

I know from another pessimist that its possible that one can feel that there is

a greater liklihood of being right , predicting events to come ,

a security that one has a fine 'bead' on things ,

eventually one may come to trust in the pessimism they have, maybe too much ..

In fact some scientific studies on attitude ,show that pessimists DO actually have a clearer view

of things going on around them !

There however is a flip side to the coin

the stresses they must endure regarding relationships , the world view that pessimists are burdened with

takes a toll on their quality of life (as they themselves see it! )

Its entirely up to you whether to carry the burden, or open oneself up to fanciful whimsey (in moderation)

There is validity in both world views or somewhere inbetween.

 

Personally , I think that its good to put proper importance on "just your own personal quality of life" ,

rendering mental middle-fingers to anybody who disapproves

there is a wisdom all its own in that,

even if it leads you to misjudge a bit here or there.

Stosh

[GrandmasterP]

Good post Steve. Osho's book 'When the shoe fits' is a brilliant intro to Taoism via some Chuang'tzu stories plus it has some great jokes. If you like to read Marius then there is a Romanian edition of that available.

Happiness is happier than pessimism but Xtia ideas of original sin andguilt etc do make it a rather gloomy path. That and needing a priestly caste with exclusive rights to do eituals for the punters. By and large Taoists more or less can do all that stuff in temple ourselves wenever we like. No need to wait til Sunday mass and some old boy in a frock doing things 'for' the audience. Taoism is kinda participatory. Everybody can play. Our priests are more along the lines of caretakers.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[GrandmasterP]

Good point.

Sorta like delusions attempting to 'fill' an omnipresent emptiness.

'Clay is fired to make a pot

Pot's use comes from emptiness' [TTC 11].

A most cheering idea, on so many levels..

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Marius Tudor]

Hi Marius ,

Ill say this ,,and then you can examine it for validity....

Pessimism is an attitude like other attitudes

we develop them over time and they become habit

not everything we learn to do, or make a habit, is in our own best interests long term

I know from another pessimist that its possible that one can feel that there is

a greater liklihood of being right , predicting events to come ,

a security that one has a fine 'bead' on things ,

eventually one may come to trust in the pessimism they have, maybe too much ..

In fact some scientific studies on attitude ,show that pessimists DO actually have a clearer view

of things going on around them !

There however is a flip side to the coin

the stresses they must endure regarding relationships , the world view that pessimists are burdened with

takes a toll on their quality of life (as they themselves see it! )

Its entirely up to you whether to carry the burden, or open oneself up to fanciful whimsey (in moderation)

There is validity in both world views or somewhere inbetween.

 

Personally , I think that its good to put proper importance on "just your own personal quality of life" ,

rendering mental middle-fingers to anybody who disapproves

there is a wisdom all its own in that,

even if it leads you to misjudge a bit here or there.

Stosh

Yes it seems to me now that quality of life is the most important however I can tell you that I am pessimistic about both attitudes towards life(pessimism and "allways look on the bright side of life").And this is not a game of words,and I feel that there is something genuinely wrong about my view.Why shouldn't I be able to see the good in both attitudes?

Good post Steve. Osho's book 'When the shoe fits' is a brilliant intro to Taoism via some Chuang'tzu stories plus it has some great jokes. If you like to read Marius then there is a Romanian edition of that available.

Happiness is happier than pessimism but Xtia ideas of original sin andguilt etc do make it a rather gloomy path. That and needing a priestly caste with exclusive rights to do eituals for the punters. By and large Taoists more or less can do all that stuff in temple ourselves wenever we like. No need to wait til Sunday mass and some old boy in a frock doing things 'for' the audience. Taoism is kinda participatory. Everybody can play. Our priests are more along the lines of caretakers.

Is this the book? http://www.messagefr...e_Shoe_Fits.pdf .Anyway I'd rather the book was in english so that I could practice more since I speak my native languange all the time I also done that workout the first thing in the morning and I can tell that it's a really good physical exercise t though I could not mimick those moves precisely, but I think in time it will get better.

 

#Yesterday I felt that I got enough on the topic but I forgot the key parts.According to Christianity there is only one life that you get and according to how you act during it you may be rewarded or punished by either going to heaven or hell.At the first glance this statement sounds pretty good, however when I look closer I become intrigued by two facts.The first would be, if I do bad in my life and after death I go to hell , will it be permanent?if it is , it would not sound fair to me since to degree to which you are punished is higher than you deserve.Therefore if you are sent to hell , can you move to heaven or viceversa?The other fact that struck me is how do you asses good and bad?And I can go further , and ask what is good and what is evil?Simply put this binary system would deserve a mental middle-finger

Edited September 28, 2012 by Marius Tudor

[Jetsun]

The idea of permanent hell I think goes against the natural laws seeing as everything changes hell will change too and your position within it will change as well. It is more likely this is an idea invented to scare people into being obedient. In Buddhism they talk about hell realms too but there is no permanent hell and you can work your way out of them, plus the concept of hell might be more to do with where your mind is fixated rather than an actual physical place.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Marius Tudor]

In a different thread... someone (I don't remember who ) pointed out that the pessimists and optimists that see half empty half-full glass are both delusional... I mentioned that the glass is ALWAYS full... eventually came to the conclusion that the realists is the one who sees the glass... as the glass with something in it... even if that something is just space full of air and empty of water... to answer your first question... maybe you should see the good in each attitude...

 

On to the point you mentioned about going to hell or heaven... its all about individuals freedom and what they choose to accept... depending on your actions you get to 'enjoy' certain experience ... what you do now determines what to 'enjoy' forevermore... let me put it this way you are given a situation and you choose the experience to have in that situation... note that regardless of what you choose the experience to be in that situation the situation be the situation... you can accept it, you can reject it, you can do all sort of things... love it, have it... enjoy appreciate learn understand and many many other possibilities both good and bad... here is the crux of the matter if you now choose a certain course of action what makes you believe intuit think that you will choose a different course of action if given the choice again. Say if you choose to be bad this just once and do good next time... next time you do the same thing... forever justifying your current choice on doing good the next time and forever choosing the bad choice... Now say you choose to be good this just once and do bad next time... next time you do the same thing... forever justifying your current choice on doing good this just one time and forever choosing the good choice..

 

My point is that even if it be permitted that those in hell repent and seek forgiveness would those in there choose to do it, or just say to hell with that... some choose love and some choose hate... when someone loves them and cares about them...

 

if you are sent to heaven , can you move to hell and vise versa? Sure... question is if you are there would you choose to go to the other place? Its actually the same question regardless of the place you are sent... would you choose to move from where you are? The last question you pose involved the original temptation... 'eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil' , with the temptation that leads to the forbidden fruit... the problem from what I see was that adam and eve did not resort to God for discernment... heck God told them not to do it to begin with... when tempted they could had gone to God and asked for permission... even after the disobedience they could cad resorted to God and asked for mercy and forgiveness... BUT NO they started the victim's blame game... and entered into a delusional fantasy that someone made me do it... rather than it being a personal choice...

 

Do you think that if given the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for certain actions that individuals will recognize what they have done and repent and seek forgiveness? I say that how one lives is how one dies... meaning that if through life you choose to recognize what you did and sought forgiveness when the time comes you will do the same... let me reiterate what I said above... "let me put it this way you are given a situation and you choose the experience to have in that situation... note that regardless of what you choose the experience to be in that situation the situation be the situation... you can accept it, you can reject it, you can do all sort of things... love it, have it... enjoy appreciate learn understand and many many other possibilities both good and bad... here is the crux of the matter if you now choose a certain course of action what makes you believe intuit think that you will choose a different course of action if given the choice"

 

hope this helps

Yes indeed it helps.I believe that the best attitude towards the glass of water for instance is a "non-attitude".Who cares if the glass is half empty or half full?If there is too much water you can simply discard it,too little water..? eh you got to think a way to get water.

People should leave delusion behind.

The problem that I see here is how do you cultivate such attitude so that in the end you will achieve a state of wellbeing?

[Stosh]

Yes it seems to me now that quality of life is the most important however I can tell you that I am pessimistic about both attitudes towards life(pessimism and "allways look on the bright side of life").And this is not a game of words,and I feel that there is something genuinely wrong about my view.Why shouldn't I be able to see the good in both attitudes?

Is this the book? http://www.messagefr...e_Shoe_Fits.pdf .Anyway I'd rather the book was in english so that I could practice more since I speak my native languange all the time I also done that workout the first thing in the morning and I can tell that it's a really good physical exercise t though I could not mimick those moves precisely, but I think in time it will get better.

 

#Yesterday I felt that I got enough on the topic but I forgot the key parts.According to Christianity there is only one life that you get and according to how you act during it you may be rewarded or punished by either going to heaven or hell.At the first glance this statement sounds pretty good, however when I look closer I become intrigued by two facts.The first would be, if I do bad in my life and after death I go to hell , will it be permanent?if it is , it would not sound fair to me since to degree to which you are punished is higher than you deserve.Therefore if you are sent to hell , can you move to heaven or viceversa?The other fact that struck me is how do you asses good and bad?And I can go further , and ask what is good and what is evil?Simply put this binary system would deserve a mental middle-finger

Marius , I was raised Christian , I gotta say I dont believe any of it now, for various reasons.

Youre hitting on quite a number of topics ,in just that one post.

As far as I know it the Christian dogma is actually that there are multiple levels of purgatory -hell , it isnt forever after, that one day Jesus comes back to earth with all who have ever lived but things are better in some way.

General parishoners tend to get various simplified scenarios, so if thats where your faiths basically lay,,

then all you need to do is get a more thorough understanding of IT, there are certainly many varied views of the judaeo-christian formula.

Lots of Tao Bums have talked on the subjects of what makes for virtue , and with some digging you will come up with all sorts of raw data to crunch. The TTC in fact talks quite a lot about it , but you should understand that virtue doesnt always equate with Christian views of "goodness".

I still think you need to slow down and pick your most important focus, is it 'how to be good' or' how to feel good' or 'what exercises are helpful' 'why am I pessimistic' blah blah blah.

Stosh

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Marius Tudor]

I noticed that I went off-topic the most of the time, but to be honest firstly I didn't have any idea about what to start with.However as the thread "evolved" new ideas just began to flow and felt to I should continue here even if I were to get off-topic.Anyway you made a point out there and I'll try to focus on small things in the future since the fuzzyness inside my head has been organised a bit.

[GrandmasterP]

That whole Heaven and Hell thang is simply an Xtian story. Other religions have similar. Folk seem to like the idea that those they don' like end up in a bad place whlst people they do agree with end up in Heaven. So Xtians onsign all the rest to Hell cos we int Xtians. Now that's their right even though they are wrong. I was brought up surrounded by nominal Xtians

and as people they were fine,same as us. But the born again ones who take it seriously they are a serious pain in the erse.

All fanaticism and fundamentalism is stunting. Nobody can reach their full potential by wearing blinkers.

[Marius Tudor]

Yes it is something that I have stumbled across many times.All those people are making you feel guilty for not being a christian, and I fell on this trap many times.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Panas trismegistos]

Hello everyone

 

Yesterday I wanted to post something in thetaobums forum in order to get some insights about certain topics but I realised that merging so many topics would be catastrophic.Therefore I've put my thinking cap on and after a while I decided that I should begin with the basics, and after I get enlightened on the topic and my attention span is still big enough I would go further into topics such as breathing, meditation, tao,sexuality,health and the list goes on.

 

The subject which I intend to talk today about is a succinct comparison between major religions of the worlds and which one reflects the truth.Therefore I will begin by summarizing according to my knowdledge the basics of my religion.

 

I am a Christian Orthodox and I will do my best to illustrate it in few words using local tradition and information gathered in religion classes in school and so on.Here are the basics of "my" religion:

 

#There is a single God which is seen as a "trinity?" which is composed of the holy father, spirit, and son ( I do not really grasp the meaning of that and I would appreciate if you could feel me in about this matter)

#According to your doings while you live you will be granted a ticket to either heaven or hell after you die ( this somehow is simmilar to karma) while in Catholic version there is an extra dimension called purgatory which is between heaven and hell.

#There are 10 commandments which everyone must obbey and you can check them out here http://1stholistic.c...ommandments.htm

#The teachings of both catholic and orthodox versions of christianity are based on the Bible which is composed of the old testament and the new one. ( tell me if I'm wrong)

#There is a hierarchy system in both orthodoxism and catholicism which I recall to be one of the reasons that Christianity split into the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church in the Great Schism.Due to some issues I cannot tell much about the hierarchy system of both since there is a barrier of knowledge and language (english is not my native language) but I know that the split was made because political and economical interests and catholics talk about

Papal infallibility which means that the Pope is s preserved from the possibility of error ( quote from Wikipedia.org) which to orthodoxism appears to be an outrage and aqward to me aswell.

#Speciffic prayers such as "Lord's Prayer" http://en.wikipedia....rd's_Prayer

#Some traditional rituals which I don't know if they are practiced in my country such as performing a gesture upon passing near a church which depicts the holy cross

#Other rituals such as adopting a sort of vegetarian diet before easter or christmass but you can however fish based products in certain situations. (fasting I guess is the name)

#Jesus Christ is a central figure in both orthodox and catholic church.He is considered to be the son of god which gave his life in order for us to be redeemed.However in islamism or jewish religion he is either depicted as a mere prophet (again tell me if I'm wrong)

#Creation of the world:6 days to create it and the 7th was for rest, Adam and Eve, the Apple issue (was the snake Steve Jobs? ) , followed by the banishment from the garden, the arch of noa, jesus,and so on.Evolution is sort of discounted.

#Some differences between orthodoxism and catholicism, in orthodox church there are no chairs , the architecture is different whilst in a catholic church there is a chorus and there are chairs for people to sit.Other that that to me the western church seems to be more somptuos and classy whilst the easter one is more basic and simple.

Orthodox crossCatholic cross

Before ending here is a link which may come in handy for you: http://www.patriarhi...zentare_en.html

Now I would like if you could tell me a thing or two about the other important monotheistic religions (jewish and muslim) and about hindu religion which I recall is a politheistic religion which has 3 gods ( brahma vishnu and shiva) and then tell me about buddhism.I want to add that there i have an acquaintance which studied theology at Oxford and told that the Orthodox and Catholic church might merge again and also told me that Christian religion is "the best" (which of course I took with a grain of salt).That's why I want so bad to get more informed.The last thing that I want to add is that that as I said my native language is not english so please forgive any eventual mistakes in my language which may include grammar and the correct usage of words, meaning , bla bla bla...

 

My 2 eurocents , peace!

 

 

 

If we discuss about major religions as the Big 3 Abrahamic religions !

1) Judaism 2) Christianity , 3) Islam .

 

So let me tell you something , There isn't any truth there !!!

 

Monotheistic religions are fraud .

There isn't any such thing as one big god . Which is very good . But he wants the people be slaves to him . And he can't to say no to the money , always he wants more .

 

 

There is much truth and Wealth in many religions as Paganism , Polytheism , Shinto , Taoism , Confucianism , Buddhism , even in wicca .

 

The big difference is that the Abrahamic religions have no SPIRITUALITY !!!

As above spiritual religions that the very little people follow .

[GrandmasterP]

By and large the Abrahamic paths are based on a book or books whereas we tend towards aiming to transcend written knowledge through practical training.

You do find spirituality in some Xtian cultivations. The eremitical Desert Fathers for example or maybe Jesus Prayer cultivators in the Orthodox tradition but those ways are identical to ours and much of what passes for Desert Fathers wisdom such as the Philokalia is a gloss on Buddhist sutras or straight rip offs of Taoist tales with just the names changed.

Jesus Prayer is Nembutsu-like as to a lesser extent is the Catholic rosary-repetition ritual.

Anybody interested in cultivation is better off doing it than reading about it. 8 Strands of Silk Brocade is a simple but very effective way in.

[Aetherous]

In my view, anyone who uses the term Abrahamic has missed the mark. Anyone.

[Stosh]

In my view, anyone who uses the term Abrahamic has missed the mark. Anyone.

What do you mean by that there? Turtles

Yes, Panas is taking a hard line ,(GMP a softer one ) but I dont see why the term indicates confusion.

Stosh

Edited September 28, 2012 by Stosh

[Aetherous]

I don't discuss religion. Sorry no offense and nothing personal. Just wanted to blurt that idea out there.

[Stosh]

Ok ,,I ,,sort of ,,get that , but that was the topic ..

Have a good weekend

Stosh

[fizix]

God has no religion.