Religion

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Stosh]

^{Yeah well a person can lie about the sentiments they have}

^{they can be confused about the significances of their experience}

^{they can get high and see gods}

^{It is a point with no concievable point other than to disparage scientific investigations of reality}

^Stosh

[Marblehead]

No ET Science is not the atheists religion

Read my mouth, atheism just means one doesnt believe in a deity -god or gods !

Science it a method regarding objectively verifiable truth.

 

And its perfectly possible to have atheist religion

Sometimes Taoists have gods sometimes they dont.

 

Stosh

I'm not sure about that sentence I bolded but do agree with everything else you said. Atheism really has nothing to do with science as it can exist within or without of science.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[GrandmasterP]

Atheism just means not accepting a God figure.

Not necessarily believing in science or anything else.

Taoists (some of us) have lots of Gods n Godesses we just don't 'believe' in them 'per se'.

Some atheists are very devout about their atheism it's almost like a religion for them. They have atheist books, songs, poets, meetings, merchandise. High 'Priests' of a sort such as Richard Dawkins who is a bit of a pope figure for many of them.

They revere him..

Bit like the Roman Catholics in a way.

There's lots of atheist kit to buy if they want it.

[Stosh]

Alright , I might get corrected on that line about the possibility of atheists being able to have religion

maybe its a definition thing. Its just so common for religious folks to have no respect for beliefs other than their own

that I see it as almost inevitable that say, monotheists define the only true religions as monotheist etc

But I dont see why supernatural humans are the only conclusion a people could come up with to answer the question of why it snows , where did the world come from , what is good to do.

Its possible that a person can believe that gods exist and yet never try to beg from them, never try to kow tow to them etc

 

Frankly I dont even know what 'believing in them' is accurately supposed to mean.

 

As I have said before I consider myself philosophical Taoist (to satisfy a label ) and I dont consider myself religious

since I follow no rituals attend no grouping etc.. but atheist is a label which connotes to many ,the belief in nothing of spiritual caliber , and thats not my position either.

 

Actually yall have me wondering , am I the only one who posts here that doesnt believe in supernatural stuff at all?

Stosh

[Stosh]

I'm not sure about that sentence I bolded but do agree with everything else you said. Atheism really has nothing to do with science as it can exist within or without of science.

 

I thought you considered yourself to be Taoist , you dont consider your beliefs to be religion then?

You define religion by ,or require the belief in, god gods spirits etc ?

Stosh

[Stosh]

Wow if this is the case then the the Joke surely will be on me

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

:0

Stosh

[Fū Yue]

Actually yall have me wondering , am I the only one who posts here that doesnt believe in supernatural stuff at all?

Stosh

 

 

I don't believe in 'supernatural stuff', everything that cultivation causes within the human system can be explained scientifically through nature. However, the current paradigms of science also need to be updated in order to keep up with this rapidly evolving nature, so sticking only to what science has currently 'proven' will not work when exploring these 'new' fields of experience.

[Marius Tudor]

Science is a great tool which helps us in our daily lives or atleast the product of it, but I think you went too far.As I said a few days ago you make long statements about nothing and lately it has been really hard for my attention span.Please keep it simple.

Btw et-thoughts you have interesting ideas which I actually absorbed but lately your comments repell me from further reading.

 

this is a summary of the latest comments: the truth is that the truth is non truth that in religion you don;t need truth but science is truth which is proven ....and the truth is that the truth is the truth....bla bla bla atheist is non religion.......wrong

 

Random question:How can someone believe with all his heart in something and does need to proof for it and get to live and act accordingly?

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Marblehead]

I thought you considered yourself to be Taoist , you dont consider your beliefs to be religion then?

You define religion by ,or require the belief in, god gods spirits etc ?

Stosh

Hehehe. Yes Stosh, I am also a Philosophical Taoist (my label).

 

And yes, I believe religion requires supernatural powers of some sort. I do not believe in supernatural anything. No ghosts either.

[Stosh]

Hehehe. Yes Stosh, I am also a Philosophical Taoist (my label).

 

And yes, I believe religion requires supernatural powers of some sort. I do not believe in supernatural anything. No ghosts either.

 

Ok , you dont consider your beliefs to constitute religion

but you take them possibly as serious and diligent and fulfilling

as many might take religion, or even more so

right?

 

So it has always seemed to me that the criteria of religiosity

could basically be satisfied by belief systems that dont include

monotheistic style gods.

Some dudes might believe in spirits in the rocks and water and trees

which 'animate' or inhabit those things , and that might still constitute "religion"

Or persons could relate to their ancestors

Others to the virtues of fire water wind metal and earth as they play out on the stage of Tao...

and yet still not believe in any sort of superman dude directing things.

And yet these other things might get called 'religion'

 

I was under the impression that there were different approaches that folks had under the

heading of Taoism , some of which included folks on higher levels like immortals ,

(but who dont actually "run the show")

And other folks believed that thier spirits could float around out of " normal context"

or that there were things which science hadnt discovered yet but which still would abide by rational principles

or that there was really only one sentience which was sort of parcelled out.

 

I personally dont see why belief in supernatural beings needs to be required to assign the designation of 'religion'

since there is no real common denominator which excludes you.

Sorry Im not saying it well.

 

Fu Yue, do you consider your faith etc.... 'religion which does not include a god?'

 

Viator ,

Im really just trying to find wording to fit the

question I just asked Fu Yue , to see if I would have

support for my claim that its possible to have 'atheist religion' ,,

since I just shouldnt speak for anybody else on the matter.

 

Et,

the 'this' I was referring to was if all the Taoists here were theists.

Since I had always thought the clear and refreshing message of it all was atheist

(to me and to others )

 

I always felt like I was banging my head against a wall

speaking to a non receptive audience now I suspect I see why.

So I laugh at myself , the irony is rich

Stosh

[GrandmasterP]

Round our way at the whacky end of Taoism we have ritual, liturgy, robes n silly hats, the works. Not to go shopping in but for special occasions. Fortune telling, all sorts so supernatural is kinda second nature. But if I broke a leg the last thing I want to hear is...'Let me through, I'm an acupuncturist' No sirreee I want someone with seven years medical school minimum tending to me.

That whole supernatural schtick is window dressing really. It works if you believe it. Sometimes. Other times it doesn't. Probably is an explanation for it but nobody has come up with one that everybody can agree on. Yet.

[Marblehead]

Hi Stosh,

 

I said it well enough.

 

Taoism: Religious; Alchemic; Philosophical

 

Yes, I feed my fish every evening, religiously. But this has nothing to do with religion, as such.

 

Marblehead: A Materialist; A Nietzschian; An Atheist; A Taoist

 

I really don't follow any of them 'religiously'. Presented with conditions I will take whatever is needed from any of the four above and apply it to the conditions. True, my actions may not be Taoist but it is very probable my actions will be consistent with one of these four philosophies.

 

Is it possible to define a belief system as a religion without it having a godhead? Well, there is Buddhism.

 

Is it possible to believe in a godhead without holding to any particular religion? Well, there are Pantheists.

[Stosh]

I do get your point Mh , but

 

do you reconsider your doubt ( that it is possible to have atheist religion ) as expressed suchly...

 

"I'm not sure about that sentence I bolded"

 

Would not Buddhism be an atheist religion as some practice it? You would know better than I .

 

Anyway theres another angle for me personally , and about Tao

I just find it so ironic that the very things I cherish so well , the clarity and wisdom ,

the rejuvenating freedom of escaping the supernatural explanations

about how the world all fits together ,is so unpopular

in the very tradition where I find it so persuasive !!…

 

That all the Taoists who dont believe in Gods dont think they have religion???

 

Not only that , but I find this out on a day when I finally put my early journal notes onto my ppj !

 

Now I get why Aaron said I was speaking Stoshism!

That’s rich J

Stosh

[Fū Yue]

Ok , you dont consider your beliefs to constitute religion

but you take them possibly as serious and diligent and fulfilling

as many might take religion, or even more so

right?

 

So it has always seemed to me that the criteria of religiosity

could basically be satisfied by belief systems that dont include

monotheistic style gods.

Some dudes might believe in spirits in the rocks and water and trees

which 'animate' or inhabit those things , and that might still constitute "religion"

Or persons could relate to their ancestors

Others to the virtues of fire water wind metal and earth as they play out on the stage of Tao...

and yet still not believe in any sort of superman dude directing things.

And yet these other things might get called 'religion'

 

I was under the impression that there were different approaches that folks had under the

heading of Taoism , some of which included folks on higher levels like immortals ,

(but who dont actually "run the show")

And other folks believed that thier spirits could float around out of " normal context"

or that there were things which science hadnt discovered yet but which still would abide by rational principles

or that there was really only one sentience which was sort of parcelled out.

 

I personally dont see why belief in supernatural beings needs to be required to assign the designation of 'religion'

since there is no real common denominator which excludes you.

Sorry Im not saying it well.

 

Fu Yue, do you consider your faith etc.... 'religion which does not include a god?'

 

Viator ,

Im really just trying to find wording to fit the

question I just asked Fu Yue , to see if I would have

support for my claim that its possible to have 'atheist religion' ,,

since I just shouldnt speak for anybody else on the matter.

 

Et,

the 'this' I was referring to was if all the Taoists here were theists.

Since I had always thought the clear and refreshing message of it all was atheist

(to me and to others )

 

I always felt like I was banging my head against a wall

speaking to a non receptive audience now I suspect I see why.

So I laugh at myself , the irony is rich

Stosh

 

I know what you are saying, I think. Really a religion is just a set of doctrines and/OR beliefs and protocols which do not neccesarily need to be related to any sort of 'God'-like figure and so a doctrine such as Buddhism before the deification of the Buddha could have been considered an atheist religion, being concerned not with any 'supreme being' but with the cessation of suffering. (and the steps toward that end).

 

I do not adhere to any faiths, doctrines or teachings. There is nothing here on this world which I take as a given or accept on the grounds of belief, and that includes the physical, mental and 'spiritual' worlds, anything I think, anything I do or another does, what I look like on any given day or whether what I'm seeing is 'real' or not. Actually, when I first started seeking, my view was entirely clinical and scientific in nature - mostly, it still is. I simply deconstruct all experience utilizing whatever tools are available to me, and that includes quantum physics, computer science, motion physics, geometry and arithmetic, meditation, dance, art, music, the 6 senses, 'awareness', anything else I figure out how to use, and then make note of what I find.

[GrandmasterP]

Welcome aboard bro. What you describe is sound cultivation.

Whatever gets you there is good. It's all Tao.

Whackiest religion you can think of. And there are some doozies out there. They're all Tao too. They just don't know it.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[GrandmasterP]

The only dogma in Taoism is that it's non-dogmatic.

[Marblehead]

I do get your point Mh , but

 

do you reconsider your doubt ( that it is possible to have atheist religion ) as expressed suchly...

 

"I'm not sure about that sentence I bolded"

 

Would not Buddhism be an atheist religion as some practice it? You would know better than I .

No, not ready to change my mind yet. Hehehe. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to suggest that Buddhism is Atheistic when I consider that they hold to the concept of reincarnation. That it is a religion I can agree with.

 

Later posts after this one of yours mentioned the word "dogma". This word is very important when defining which belief systems are religions. And yes, I agree with the point that Philosophical Taoism has no dogma. (Therefore I can suggest that it is not incompatible with Atheism.)

 

No more words are coming to my mind.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts