In the Name of Enlightenment - Sexual Abuse by Sogyal Rinpoche

[GrandmasterP]

Salacious thread. Is there a shower room?

Get real guys he either did it or he didn't. Gleeful rubbing of hands anf tut tutting won't change a thing unless you get off on this dreck. And if you do then you are diminished thereby

Powerholders getting jiggy is as old as time and happens all the time. Look at the odious Catholics. New Kadampa was a nest of vipers til they did some spring cleaning and some Sinhalese monks are no angels.

It's what happens when you mix lust with power.

Always has, always will.

If they were in any way attractive to women most Tantrists would never be out of the papers.

[Apech]

I hold my hands up if I rushed to judgement ... not something I usually do ... I have nothing against Lamas having sex especially if they are not monks ... so no problem there. Slight problem if its dressed up as tantra when its really just a shag ... big problem if the woman is coerced into it. Maybe its six of one and half a dozen of the other ... but I think if it was really tantric sex aimed at higher consciousness then the women would have received energy through it and probably never complained.

 

Anyway it is correct not to judge so I'll stop.

[Birch]

Isn't Tantra just a really really great shag?

[Birch]

Not to be flippant (except I obviously was, just in the previous post) but I fully expect someone who has risen themselves (or has been 'recognized' at a high spiritual-level to a) know what they are doing b)know what they are doing. Otherwise, to not allow themselves to be in any position to do things which they have even an inkling that what they are doing is not of benefit to others.

 

Sure, of course, the women (any men in there as well? If not, why not?) ought also to 'know what they are doing'. But this is IMO judging the 'students' to the caliber at which we wish to judge the 'teacher'.

 

Backwardsland.

[GrandmasterP]

Boffing students is just not on.

First thing we teach 'em here at guru school is 'keep your dhoti on'.

Tantra's most often just a shorthand term for 'wishful thinking done by lonely men'.

Honey... if they were gettin' it they wouldn't be wasting time writing so much about it online here and elsewhere.

;-)

[Birch]

Honey?

[Apech]

Honey?

 

Yes, did you call?

[Birch]

Yes, did you call?

No dear. I was asking that other gentleman who he was referring to.

[Apech]

No dear. I was asking that other gentleman who he was referring to.

 

That's ok sweetypie.

 

[GrandmasterP]

;-)

Patronising?

Moi !

Well how clever of you to notice.

:-)

Too easy...........

[Birch]

;-)

Patronising?

Moi !

Well how clever of you to notice.

:-)

Too easy...........

 

Right. Care to elucimidate?

[GrandmasterP]

[thelerner]

on a thread about spiritual malpractice, I thought this was interesting:

 

 

Brainwashed into quitting medical school

 

By Kang Soon Chen, The Star/Asia News Network,Oct 6, 2012

 

PETALING JAYA, Malaysia -- A group of Universiti Sains Malaysia medical students has allegedly been brainwashed into leaving their studies by a Buddhist monk.

 

 

Young Buddhist Association of Malaysia lay adviser Chong Hung Wang said the student Buddhist association from the campus in Kubang Kerian, Kelantan, had voiced its concern that around 30 medical students had shown behavioural changes and disinterest in their studies after returning from a trip to Thailand with the monk in August.

"These students were led to believe that patients should not receive medical treatment for their condition as sickness is the result of their karma.

"They are convinced that they should not become doctors as the act of treating patients will interfere with karma," said Chong.

It is believed that the monk had approached the students in March this year and had gained a following through religious activities conducted off-campus.

The monk also allegedly claimed that he had supernatural power and was able to tell the past and predict the future of the students.

"Compassion is central to Buddhist beliefs. What the monk had propagated about leaving patients to their sickness is wrong.

"We hope to curb the spread of misleading religious beliefs among students by creating better awareness on the true teachings of Buddhism," said Chong.

The students are said to want to leave the medical school and transfer to other programmes such as nutrition and sports science.

They are also having strained relationships with their family members following their decision to quit medical studies.

It was understood that some of the students were in their third and fourth year of studies.

A university official confirmed that three students had applied to transfer to other courses.

Vice-chancellor Prof Dr Datuk Omar Osman said none of the students had received approval to switch courses and the university viewed the matter of students being influenced by misleading religious teachings seriously.

"We do not want the students to simply switch courses because they are very good students and had worked very hard to gain a place to study medicine," said Prof Omar.

He added that the university was reaching out to the students through counselling.

[Aetherous]

"They are convinced that they should not become doctors as the act of treating patients will interfere with karma," said Chong.

 

Here's an idea: interfering with bad karma creates good karma.

[joeblast]

...and sullying positive karma creates negative...

[Aetherous]

Yeah, but for a doctor to not treat someone based on a faulty idea of karma is ridiculous.

[rex]

...

Edited April 3, 2018 by rex

[Apech]

4 hours ago, rex said:

Apart from all the snipers and people waiting in gleeful ambush, with the latest news there's some interesting debate on the implications for Tibetan Buddhism in the West touching on patriarchy, Western liberal values, culture vs dharma, and religious/political institutionalisation:

 

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=26105

 

Ironically some of the more insightful comments come from committed and experienced Buddhists match what Tibetan Buddhist detractors have been saying here on Daobums for years.  No I haven't lost my faith, but Ralis, I apologise for being so dogmatic and such a boar with you over the years.

 

 

Yikes.  I met Sogyal Rinpoche in about 1973 when he was very young (and so was I) - luckily my contact with him finished there.  He is a disgrace to himself and dharma and this just shows how the lama/guru relationship can be abused and why the standard advice to test your teacher for 12 years before accepting him is valid.  I don't know how his students stayed with him so long and ended up writing this letter - one wonders why more support was not offered by other lamas and his teachers to prevent him behaving like this.  He is lucky not to be in prison to be honest. 

 

Whatever path you follow or which teacher never give up your own judgement and self esteem in the hope of 'rewards' of enlightenment and so on.  Be your own guide and learn your own lessons.

 

 

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Yikes.  I met Sogyal Rinpoche in about 1973 when he was very young (and so was I) - luckily my contact with him finished there.  He is a disgrace to himself and dharma and this just shows how the lama/guru relationship can be abused and why the standard advice to test your teacher for 12 years before accepting him is valid.  I don't know how his students stayed with him so long and ended up writing this letter - one wonders why more support was not offered by other lamas and his teachers to prevent him behaving like this.  He is lucky not to be in prison to be honest. 

 

Whatever path you follow or which teacher never give up your own judgement and self esteem in the hope of 'rewards' of enlightenment and so on.  Be your own guide and learn your own lessons.

 

 

Very sad situation.

I have a few friends who were victims of sexual abuse at the hands of "Buddhist masters."

It leaves a lasting scar.

 

I was disturbed by the public statement made by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche on the matter.

While he made some valid and important points about the Vajrayana, he seemed to indulge a bit too much in what felt to me like bitterness and victim blaming.

 

 

 

[Jetsun]

Looks like end of the Lama system to me, especially if the current Dalai Lama ends the Dalai Lama institution when he dies , as he has suggested a few times. It's a different era where that kind of relationship generally isn't healthy any more, no need to give away your power to anyone else. 

[C T]

I wonder why this group of people have not indicated their intention to report him to the police. 

[Apech]

8 hours ago, steve said:

 

Very sad situation.

I have a few friends who were victims of sexual abuse at the hands of "Buddhist masters."

It leaves a lasting scar.

 

I was disturbed by the public statement made by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche on the matter.

While he made some valid and important points about the Vajrayana, he seemed to indulge a bit too much in what felt to me like bitterness and victim blaming.

 

 

 

 

 

Well I waded my way through some of that rather long and round the houses statement by Dzongsar Khyentse - and he seems to be excusing himself for not intervening after visiting Rigpa centres and seeing what went on (but presumably not the worst excesses).  I like Dzongsar Khyentse and enjoy his books and films, he is clearly intelligent and articulate and makes efforts to understand westerners - while most Tibetan (Bhutanese) don't bother.  It would have been better to just to say how wrong Sogyla Rinpoche's actions were and leave it at that.

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Jetsun said:

Looks like end of the Lama system to me, especially if the current Dalai Lama ends the Dalai Lama institution when he dies , as he has suggested a few times. It's a different era where that kind of relationship generally isn't healthy any more, no need to give away your power to anyone else. 

 

 

I am quite certain this is impossible.  It doesn't matter about the Dalai Lama - its irrelevant to vajrayana as the DL specifically had a political role.  In any case Kagyu, Nyinmapa or Sakya Buddhists don't follow him anyway.

 

And it is also unnecessary because what no one is mentioning is that there are already teachings about guru - student relationships which should be taught before any vajrayana empowerment etc.

 

This is the so called '50 verses' and its commentary 'Opening the door to the precious siddhis' by Tsarchen Losal Gyamtso. - written some time in the 16th century.

 

While most of this text dwells on how you should do what your Lama says and treat him in certain respectful ways ... there is a 'safety clause' (my term) ....

 

XXIV.  The intelligent disciple will strive willingly and joyfully to obey his lama.  If he is not able by his own intelligence and ability to carry out his orders, he should explain why, and his fault will thus be purified.

 

The the commentary quotes the Ratnakuta Sutra 'If it is a question of a virtuous order, carry it out, if not don't comply with it.'

 

Then it quotes Vagisvakirti who says 'Explain to your master that you cannot carry out his demands which are contrary to the dharma and leave his orders in abeyance.'

 

So it is quite clear that if a lama asks you to strip off, have sex or photograph your genitals (!) - then you just politely say no - and if so moved ask him where in the dharma it says this kind of thing is appropriate, where in the sangha rules of conduct this is okeyed and how would a Buddha if he were present come to make such a request.  If you discover he is committing criminal acts - then for his own sake - report him to the police.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Apech

[Jetsun]

12 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

I am quite certain this is impossible.  It doesn't matter about the Dalai Lama - its irrelevant to vajrayana as the DL specifically had a political role.  In any case and Kagyu, Nyinmapa or Sakya Buddhists don't follow him anyway.

 

And it is also unnecessary because what no one is mentioning is that there are already teachings about guru - student relationships which should be taught before any vajrayana empowerment etc.

 

This is the so called '50 verses' and its commentary 'Opening the door to the precious siddhis' by Tsarchen Losal Gyamtso. - written some time in the 16th century.

 

While most of this text dwells on how you should do what your Lama says and treat him in certain respectful ways ... there is a 'safety clause' (my term) ....

 

XXIV.  The intelligent disciple will strive willingly and joyfully to obey his lama.  If he is not able by his own intelligence and ability to carry out his orders, he should explain why, and his fault will thus be purified.

 

The the commentary quotes the Ratnakuta Sutra 'If it is a question of a virtuous order, carry it out, if not don't comply with it.'

 

Then it quotes Vagisvakirti who says 'Explain to your master that you cannot carry out his demands which are contrary to the dharma and leave his orders in abeyance.'

 

So it is quite clear that if a lama asks you to strip off, have sex or photograph your genitals (!) - then you just politely say no - and if so moved ask him where in the dharma it says this kind of thing is appropriate, where in the sangha rules of conduct this is okeyed and how would a Buddha if he were present come to make such a request.  If you discover he is committing criminal acts - then for his own sake - report him to the police.

 

Why is it impossible? This is a blow to the credibility of Lamaism at least in the West, I guess in counties like Bhutan and Nepal such traditions will survive, no so sure about much of the rest of the world.

 

I agree what you describe is the way it should be if you receive any mistreatment, but if you read the Dzongsar Khyentse piece he is basically saying in some Nyinmapa empowerments the Lama can do whatever they want in the name of breaking down your ego, and if you report it you are breaking your vows. He's representative of a kind of medieval mindset which is no longer appropriate for the modern age. 

[Apech]

14 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

 

Why is it impossible? This is a blow to the credibility of Lamaism at least in the West, I guess in counties like Bhutan and Nepal such traditions will survive, no so sure about much of the rest of the world.

 

I agree what you describe is the way it should be if you receive any mistreatment, but if you read the Dzongsar Khyentse piece he is basically saying in some Nyinmapa empowerments the Lama can do whatever they want in the name of breaking down your ego, and if you report it you are breaking your vows. He's representative of a kind of medieval mindset which is no longer appropriate for the modern age. 

 

Hi Jetsun,

 

I should have explained - the vajrayana path relies heavily (and arguably totally) on the lama/student relationship such that it would not be possible to have vajrayana without it.  So no matter how much individual lamas are discredited if you took it out of Tibetan Buddhism there would literally be no Tibetan Buddhism.  There might be some parts of mahayana and hinayana but not vajrayana.

 

As much as I like Dzongsar Khyentse and having read his book 'the Guru drinks bourbon' (which was not his best book I'm afraid to say) - I just think he is wrong,  the verse I quoted above says that if what he does is not in accord with dharma then you can excuse yourself.  And this does not necessarily mean that you have to walk away and abandon Buddhism but simply that you say 'I'm not doing that because its not dharmic.'  The consequences of this are whatever they are and that's what you as an individual have to risk -  but in Sogyal Rinpoche you can see what happens when people relinquish their responsibility to stick to this.

 

It has also to be mentioned that Sogyal Rinpoche was not himself a monk or properly trained.  He went to a Catholic school and university and came to the west early for treatment for TB.  His teachings were a hotch potch mixture of New Agery and so forth.  Its no wonder he went wrong.  And by the way it is strongly rumoured that the book which made him famous 'The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying' was written by his western students and not him.  So he was a fraud - and now everyone knows.  So good.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Apech