In the Name of Enlightenment - Sexual Abuse by Sogyal Rinpoche

[3bob]

just the karmic facts,  karma will be worked out by the end of the cosmic cycle and a related question is how does one want to dharmically spend that cycle besides wondering about enlightenment concepts...?

[9th]

Thats right - just the facts, maam.  

 

Speaking of karma, Id like you to meet someone.  His name is sacred, so I cannot reveal it to you in particular at this time.  But you can learn so much from his appearance, you may not even need to know a name.  

 

Its like that song... you may not get what you want - but you will get what you deserve.  No wait - its "you'll get what you need".  Yeh... thats it.

 

 

[Apech]

Gurus - don't you just love 'em.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/25/fears-unrest-indian-guru-convicted-rape-ram-rahim-singh-panchkula

[Apech]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-41047531

 

Quote

 

The flamboyant chief of the Dera Sacha Sauda sect, Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh, has been convicted of rape by an Indian court.

The sect claims to have more than 60 million followers around the world and the 50-year-old "godman" is revered by his supporters. But, he is no stranger to controversy.

In 2002, Mr Singh was investigated by India's federal police for murder and alleged rape, charges he has denied. He has also been accused of forcing 400 of his followers to undergo castration so they could "get closer to god".

He told the Times of India that the last charge was "cent-per-cent false. I never asked anyone to do so".

 

 

 

 

Yikes!

 

Are there any DBs volunteers to try this??????

Edited August 25, 2017 by Apech

[Jetsun]

 

[THACS]

Sogyal Rinpoche is fully aware what now will happen upon his death, he should've known what Compassion means, that wisdom alone is not enough.  Recently a Rinpoche spoke out to support Sogyal Rinpoche, now he is having issues, maybe he should've stayed clear of the Non-virtuous acts.  If you look at those acts, you should see the absence of Compassion.  But if you do any of those acts, those act do not protect you anymore.  You should always test teachings of Guru's, Compassion being the foundation.  Before any physical actions, should ask yourself a single question:  "Is it going to harm me or those around?"

 

From a different thread a question of: "Why would the Dalai Lama need One's help?", One understands and carries the realization of Emptiness.  By now the Dalai Lama should have that realization, for he tests the teachings, only through testing teachings do you find Realization. 

 

 

[C T]

http://hardcorezen.info/more-buddhist-scandals/5464

[Orion]

Is this the same Sogyal Rinpoche who wrote the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying?

 

I watched the OP video and I am sick to my stomach.

 

I don't care how willing the victims were, the gurus are in a position of power and they are taking advantage. The power disparity is obvious. People are surrendering themselves because they trust the guru and believe it to be part of a sacred process, when really it's just the master succumbing to lust.

 

Gross gross gross!!!

Edited September 13, 2017 by Orion

[Apech]

27 minutes ago, Orion said:

Is this the same Sogyal Rinpoche who wrote the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying?

 

I watched the OP video and I am sick to my stomach.

 

I don't care how willing the victims were, the gurus are in a position of power and they are taking advantage. The power disparity is obvious. People are surrendering themselves because they trust the guru and believe it to be part of a sacred process, when really it's just the master succumbing to lust.

 

Gross gross gross!!!

 

Yep its the same guy - although I think most of the book was written by his students.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

I've read that the Tibetans actually believe it is possible to learn from texts, and hold that in high regard (as compared to learning through discipleship). 

I learned the sweep from a judo teacher.  For that teacher, the sweep was his principal technique.  It's pretty much accepted that a judo practitioner will have a principal technique, and in most cases that they will learn it from a teacher for whom that was the principal technique.  We practiced a lot at the dojo, but there was something in the timing that our teacher conveyed to us that students in other dojos, whose teachers had other principal techniques, did not seem to acquire.

 

That being said, my path to the lotus has been long and convoluted, and mostly involved "book learning".  I've kept at it, because a teacher I respect said "take your time with the lotus."  That teacher had no pain when he sat, even three seven-day sesshins in a row.  He also said, he himself sat the lotus to stay out of pain. 

 

I think I see how that's possible, but at this time I still have some numbness, more often than I'd like.

 

Now whether I succeed in "raising the red flag" (as Yuanwu described it) in the lotus more regularly due to my research, or whether I fail, I still believe that the work we have in the West is precisely to put the dharma in the framework of Western science.  Until we have a basis to talk about the practice in Western terms, we will never get away from the kind of abuses that seem to recur under the teacher-disciple model of learning. 

 

Those with particular talent will still be teachers to the rest of us, but we can all know what their particular talent is, in Western terms.  The real understanding does not diminish the teacher, but augments their example--IMO.
 

Here's a piece of my latest writing:

"There can be a panic that comes in feeling the necessity of the whole body of an inhalation or of the whole body of an exhalation without finding relaxation, without finding ease. A surrender of "habits of mind" sufficient to experience activity in those senses necessary for the movement of breath is required...

At the same time, because contact in the necessary senses is a part of the natural movement of breath, Dogen can say that sustained effort need not be applied:

 

Fundamentally speaking, the basis of the way is perfectly pervasive; how could it be contingent on practice and verification? The vehicle of the ancestors is naturally unrestricted; why should we expend sustained effort? Surely, the whole being is far beyond defilement; who could believe in a method to polish it? Never is it apart from this very place; what is the use of a pilgrimage to practice it?

(Dogen, "Universally Recommended Instructions for Zazen", Koroku Fukan zazen gi, from "Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation by Carl Bielefeldt, pg 175, ed. 1988)"

That's from my post, Twenty-second Case: Hsueh Feng's Turtle-Nosed Snake.
 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Mark Foote

[rex]

...

Edited April 3, 2018 by rex

[Jetsun]

Surely he could be charged with assault and locked up, it's quite sickening reading that. 

[C T]

46 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

Surely he could be charged with assault and locked up, it's quite sickening reading that. 

Im surprised this matter is still out of police hands. 

[doc benway]

On 9/14/2017 at 1:54 AM, Mark Foote said:

I've read that the Tibetans actually believe it is possible to learn from texts, and hold that in high regard (as compared to learning through discipleship). 

I learned the sweep from a judo teacher.  For that teacher, the sweep was his principal technique.  It's pretty much accepted that a judo practitioner will have a principal technique, and in most cases that they will learn it from a teacher for whom that was the principal technique.  We practiced a lot at the dojo, but there was something in the timing that our teacher conveyed to us that students in other dojos, whose teachers had other principal techniques, did not seem to acquire.

 

That being said, my path to the lotus has been long and convoluted, and mostly involved "book learning".  I've kept at it, because a teacher I respect said "take your time with the lotus."  That teacher had no pain when he sat, even three seven-day sesshins in a row.  He also said, he himself sat the lotus to stay out of pain. 

 

I think I see how that's possible, but at this time I still have some numbness, more often than I'd like.

 

Now whether I succeed in "raising the red flag" (as Yuanwu described it) in the lotus more regularly due to my research, or whether I fail, I still believe that the work we have in the West is precisely to put the dharma in the framework of Western science.  Until we have a basis to talk about the practice in Western terms, we will never get away from the kind of abuses that seem to recur under the teacher-disciple model of learning. 

 

Tibetans do revere books and texts and yet they caution their students that it is essential to learn from a credible and accomplished teacher. Books are a way to preserve and transmit the Dharma from generation to generation. They contain all of the information but there is more to spiritual growth and awakening than information, hence the need for a teacher. On a Tibetan shrine, nothing is placed higher than the written word, not even a statue of Buddhas or Deities. A Tibetan would never put a book on the floor or ground or step over it, it is a constant reminder of the value of education and the power of words.

 

You make a good point about the importance of dispelling superstition, fantasy, and projection surrounding Buddhist teachings, I would extend that to all spiritual or religious teachings in fact, including Daoism. I do see this happening in the west. My own teacher is very much committed to a progressive, practical approach to the Dharma, as is the Dalai Lama. On the other hand, there is enormous power and value in esoteric teachings that we, as westerners, may not yet understand and there has been a problem with giving high tantric teachings and empowerments to people who are not ready for them. 

 

I'm reading an excellent book right now called Why Buddhism is True by Robert Wright. It's something I never would have bought for myself but my wife gave it to me as a gift and, despite my skepticism, I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Wright is the author of The Moral Animal, The Evolution of God, and Nonzero: The Logic of Human Destiny. He brings a scientific context, particularly  that of evolutionary biology, to the Buddhist view and practices.

Highly recommended. 

[Wells]

 

These women practiced what many fools on thedaobums preach:

They blindly believed in their guru and not in rational cognition!

They are no victims as they do it to themselves by free choice.

The women lied to themselves, therefore increased their state of delusion by free will and therefore created at least as much bad karma as their guru.

 

 

 

[Kar3n]

11 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

These women practiced what many fools on thedaobums preach:

They blindly believed in their guru and not in rational cognition!

They are no victims as they do it to themselves by free choice.

The women lied to themselves, therefore increased their state of delusion by free will and therefore created at least as much bad karma as their guru.

 

 

 

Your rhetoric is misguided and disgusting, Wells.

 

Typical misogynistic, blame the victim, bullshit- Nope, no abuse of power here, no fiduciary responsibility whatsoever; it is all the women's fault for believing in tradition and lineage.

[Wells]

5 hours ago, Kar3n said:

Your rhetoric is misguided and disgusting, Wells.

 

Typical misogynistic, blame the victim, bullshit- Nope, no abuse of power here, no fiduciary responsibility whatsoever;

 

Absolutely not.

 

Please explain why my argument is mysogynistic in your opinion. You surely can do that if your attack is not a blind lashing out driven purely by an irrational identification with the women involved just because they are women and you are one too.

 

How moronic has one to be to believe that one progresses towards enlightenment when one performs physical sexual services for a buddhist guru?

 

And what power are you talking about? Ridiculous! This guy had only the authority and power over these women which they fabricated and imaginated themselves in their own minds!

 

Quote

it is all the women's fault for believing in tradition and lineage.

 

Believing in tradition and lineage...?

If that argument of yours is supposed to make any sense then you surely can quote widely established buddhist text sources which explicitly state that some beginner who is not an advanced and well prepared Tantra practitioner herself could achieve any spiritual development through performing sexual acts with a buddhist guru.

 

Edited October 8, 2017 by Wells

[thelerner]

It's probably not good to judge a group by the behavior of there worst members. 

At least learn about the whole, and get perspective before you paint a group as villainous.

 

Throwing out tradition and lineage.. isn't that throwing out the hard won knowledge of those who dedicated there lives to there art and teaching it to others.  We should use our brains to discriminate intelligently, not stereotype everything. 

 

There are jewels in the teaching and teachers of Tibetan Buddhism, apparently there is some rot too.  Judge wisely, don't put people up on pedestals.  Yet imo, there are saints and masters in this world and connecting and learning from them is tremendous.  But even with great respect, understand there are cultural biases and even the greatest can be seduced by human foibles, especially when they think they are above them. 

Edited October 8, 2017 by thelerner

[Kar3n]

25 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

Absolutely not.

 

Please explain why my argument is mysogynistic in your opinion. You surely can do that if your attack is not a blind lashing out driven purely by an irrational identification with the women involved just because they are women and you are one too.

 

How moronic has one to be to believe that one progresses towards enlightenment when one performs physical sexual services for a buddhist guru?

 

And what power are you talking about? Ridiculous! This guy had only the authority and power over these women which they fabricated and imaginated themselves in their own minds!

 

 

Believing in tradition and lineage...?

If that argument of yours is supposed to make any sense then you surely can quote widely established buddhist text sources which explicitly state that some beginner who is not an advanced and well prepared Tantra practitioner herself could achieve any spiritual development through performing sexual acts with a buddhist guru.

 

I am talking about him being in situations and settings with the women at all. He is the authority figure and has a duty to uphold the Dharma.

 

If they were not taught correctly, they would not know, now would they? We know little to nothing about these women and their backgrounds.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

I`ve got a pretty good vocabulary but you wouldn`t want me to try and fix your car.  Most people are like this: good at some things and lousy at others.  That goes for spiritual wisdom too, I think.  Someone can be an accomplished spiritual practitioner and teacher in many ways, and pitifully lacking in others.  Sexual conduct is often a weak area, perhaps because it`s such a taboo subject; things that are pushed out of awareness grow powerful and twisted.  It`s not that there`s something inherently bad about Tibetan Buddhism (or Catholicism, for that matter), we just need to bring the whole topic of sexuality into the light.

[Apech]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I`ve got a pretty good vocabulary but you wouldn`t want me to try and fix your car.  Most people are like this: good at some things and lousy at others.  That goes for spiritual wisdom too, I think.  Someone can be an accomplished spiritual practitioner and teacher in many ways, and pitifully lacking in others.  Sexual conduct is often a weak area, perhaps because it`s such a taboo subject; things that are pushed out of awareness grow powerful and twisted.  It`s not that there`s something inherently bad about Tibetan Buddhism (or Catholicism, for that matter), we just need to bring the whole topic of sexuality into the light.

 

Avoiding sexual misconduct is a precept of Buddhism which this Lama should have upheld.  It's a simple as that.  He didn't because he a is a flawed person and a poor teacher.  Just because you say you are a Buddhist teacher and wear the robes and have the titles doesn't mean you are one.  Being a bit promiscuous is not actually a crime - in fact it can be a largely forgivable human trait - but using some religious veil to do this is just a kind of confidence trick.  And as with all confidence tricks there is a sense of buyer beware and these women would have been better advised to check if what they were being told to do was valid or not, and indeed that people can only be conned by using their own ignorance and greed against them - it is still the case power brings responsibility and they handed power over to him and he abused that trust.  He is a weak, stupid and bad person and that's that.

[Wells]

15 hours ago, Kar3n said:

I am talking about him being in situations and settings with the women at all. He is the authority figure and has a duty to uphold the Dharma.

 

If they were not taught correctly, they would not know, now would they? We know little to nothing about these women and their backgrounds.

 

What happened is sex between adults in mutual agreement.

The women who wanted to have sex with him followed his pick-up line, those who didn't want to have sex with him refused and eventually leaved him.

He did not rape the women and he did not threaten them physically to force them to have sex with him,

therefore there are no victims.

Just by watching the videos it is clear to everybody that this guy is like a sheik building up a harem of young girls for his sexual advantage.

So only an adult person in willful ignorance or mentally impaired would not understand what's going on there.

Obviously they all played along for some time and were happy or at least ok with what's going on.

Obviously he still has female followers who are happy with the situation and with playing their role.

They get a boost for their ego as they have the attention of and have sex with an authority figure,

he gets a boost for his ego as he is admired by and has sex with young women.

Only mentally impaired women could claim rightfully to have been victims in that situation.

 

Edited October 8, 2017 by Wells

[Wells]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

He is a weak, stupid and bad person and that's that.

 

That applies to every person who is not a buddha, it's just a matter of degree and relativity.

[Apech]

54 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

That applies to every person who is not a buddha, it's just a matter of degree and relativity.

 

 

In vajrayana they are taught to regard their Lama as a Buddha and there is an understanding that he/she should act in relationship to them in accordance with buddha-nature as such.  This doesn't include sexual predation.  And there is also a onus on the student to hold the Lama accountable for non-dharmic acts.

 

 

[Wells]