US Presidential Debate and what is really important to people

[joeblast]

I stated there are "some" which is not a sweeping generalization as you so love to characterize it. I lived in the deep south at one time and there still exists a problem with racial bias. If you believe that humans that were once racist or are descended from racially biased families have somehow magically changed their deep seated fear of others who are different, then you are absolutely mistaken. I am of mixed race and your posts are offensive to me. Why not show a little compassion for others who have been victimized through no fault of their own and are less fortunate than you are.

ralis, damn near all of my posts are offensive to you. keep being vague and stay away from substantive points, that's all we get out of you. I dont care if you're half black, half asian, half alien - you're half weasel as far as I'm concerned because all I see are mischaracterizations from you, be it offensively or defensively. quick to point out issues with republicans which democrats have in spades. love pointing out the racism but boy you havent said a single word about the racist head of our DoJ! your info-feeds tell you to call the tea party racist and you oblige with the scantest of evidence, which is plenty in your book for the other guys, but it takes getting caught red handed....no wait, that's not even good enough for you to admit bias and racism coming from the people you support. or wait, you dont really support them, lest I be branding you as supporting something...

 

I'm sure Holder will jump right on this complaint since its white on black, but black on anything else is perfectly excusable, right?

 

ah, right, I have no compassion for calling balls and strikes, calling out racism and voter fraud and coverups thereof...good thing these debates dont count, eh?

[Apech]

**** Moderation Team Message ****

 

In the spirit of maintaining healthy political debate, please refrain from making any ad hominem attacks on other posters ... for instance I don't think the term 'half weasel' is acceptable.

 

People may hold opposing and entrenched views and will argue their ground. This is ok. I hope we are all anti-racist, this board is, and that that we can agree on human grounds not to sling mud around in this respect, as it is likely to get out of hand.

 

Thanks.

 

**** Mod Message Ends ****

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Here is an article by a Forbes writer about the monetary connections between the voting machine company and Romney

 

http://www.forbes.co...uses-concern/3/

 

See the Update part-way down for more detailed info. Basically the there have been numerous contributions to Romney's campaign by people at the top of the companies involved.

 

Also:

http://www.weeklysta...any_657183.html

 

"Solamere Capital, an investment fund founded and run by Tagg Romney, is a financial partner with HIG Capital, a private equity firm that manages a whole range of investments. HIG also invests in Hart Intercivic, a polling machine company that operates machines at polling places in Hamilton County, Ohio. But Solamere does not have any financial interest in Hart, a spokesman for Solamere tells THE WEEKLY STANDARD."

 

 

The insecurity of these machines is basically of epic proportions for people who understand e-security. Here's an HBO horror movie about it:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVTXbARGXso

Edited November 6, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[JustARandomPanda]

It's times like this when I think the parliamentary system of government is better than the congressional/presidential system the U.S. has always had.

 

Personally I wish the U.S. had a parliament set up similar to Germany's 2 + 2 system. 2 major parties plus 2 minor parties.

 

I'll vote tomorrow but it won't be for either Obama or Romney. Things will be biz as usual no matter which of those 2 wins. I know technically it'll be throwing my vote away as that's exactly as the Founding Fathers intended - one which I really disagree with them over. Unlike most Americans I don't venerate our Founders as godly sages.

[Aetherous]

How did the founding fathers intend for a voting person to be throwing away their vote? You mean the electoral college?

[JustARandomPanda]

How did the founding fathers intend for a voting person to be throwing away their vote? You mean the electoral college?

 

Apologies - my memory of this is sketchy now but I took a class at University that studied the U.S. election process, it's history and the assorted laws that applied to it.

 

The upshot - of what I remember from that class - is that YES the founding fathers actually did intend for the U.S. to have a "winner take all" election system. In it's original form their idea was that it would actually discourage political parties from forming (they termed them factions back in those days) and rather focus attention upon the person running for office and his record and the policies he was proposing. It's original intent was honest and noble imo.

 

Unfortunately it didn't work out that way even in their very own lifetime. Then when it became clear that despite George Washington's wishes to the contrary - that political parties were indeed forming (ie. factions) it mimic'd Britain's 2 Party system (at that time). I'm not sure if Britain is still a 2 Party-only country or if it has now expanded to a similar system to Germany's. I used to live in Germany for a while and took University classes examining how other countries set up their governments, representation and vote processes.

 

Another interesting little factoid. The vast majority of countries around the world have come to the conclusion - upon examination - that the parliamentary system, overall - is superior to the U.S.'s congress + presidential system of government organization in enfranchising various viewpoints and positions. Very few countries from the 19th century onward have chosen to mimic the U.S's style of government. They went for the parliamentary system nearly every time.

 

 

As for throwing away my vote here's why I said it:

 

Example: I live in a red state. It's a foregone conclusion that it'll cast all of its electoral votes for Romney. Since it's winner takes all that means anyone like me will cast a vote whose weight is worth Zero vs. anyone who voted Romney has the weight of 100.

 

I've actually looked at the popular vote breakdown for my state in past elections going all the way back to Reagan. It's surprisingly far less right-leaning (when viewed only from the popular vote) than when looked at only electoral-wise. It's more like 46% liberal-leaning and 54% conservative - give or take a few points each way per election. Which to my way of thinking seems more reasonable in being "true to life". But when looking at the electoral vote - as well as it's outcome going back to FDR - you'd think my state was a hotbed of 90% hard core conservatives since then.

 

The system is set up so that it actively disenfranchises voices like mine. And since the time of the Founders that hardcore exclusion process has only grown worse.

[Aetherous]

Ah, totally see what you mean...and that was interesting.

 

Yes, it's pretty much common sense that for this to be a real democracy, we must have the popular vote be the deciding factor...and that we should somehow break out of the 2 party pickle. It'd be awesome for people to vote based on individuals. That's something former governor Jesse Ventura is saying he's going to work on in 2016.

[JustARandomPanda]

Ah, totally see what you mean...and that was interesting.

 

Yes, it's pretty much common sense that for this to be a real democracy, we must have the popular vote be the deciding factor...and that we should somehow break out of the 2 party pickle. It'd be awesome for people to vote based on individuals. That's something former governor Jesse Ventura is saying he's going to work on in 2016.

 

Yes. I've even seen the popular vote in my state be as close a split as 49% (liberal-leaning candidates) to 51% (conservative leaning candidates). The advantage of having a popular vote is that it would remind the entire populace of my state that the winning party did not get a "mandate" the way a winner-takes-all system makes it often seem and the way the winning party almost always loves to trumpet that it got. No...they did not get a mandate. There is no mandate if 40+% of voting citizens actually cast ballots against what you're proposing. If popular vote decided things the winners would still have to remember there's that other, pesky (typically substantial percent) who disagreed with their policies, proposed bills and compromises would potentially be easier to reach. Being a moderate might actually be in vogue again.

 

In such a system it would (imo) be harder for each party to be captured by the polarized ends at the expense of those in the middle. At the very least the polarized extremes of either Party would need to do a much better job of convincing the moderate middle of why the party should shift to their extreme and show it would be beneficial to the populace as a whole.

[joeblast]

I'm fully expecting my corrupt state officials to make sure the "correct" person gets the majority of votes - they made sure of it back in 2010 with our governor's election - polls looked too close to they ordered only about 1/4th of the necessary ballots for one of the big cities, then discovered bags of votes after the fact, and jeez, look who won!

[Aetherous]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/11/06/pa-voting-machine-taken-offline-after-this-video-showed-obama-vote-going-to-romney/

[JustARandomPanda]

And this lovely ditty...

 

Definitely it's a case of foxes guarding the hen house.

[ralis]

Many reports of voter suppression, persons given absentee ballots in place of regular ballots and names of legally registered voters missing from the voter rolls.

 

The SCOTUS ruling in Bush v Gore that states there is no inherent right to vote in the Constitution was completely absurd. Until there is a legal mandate giving all the right to vote, then supression tactics will continue.

[Aetherous]

Serene,

 

Watched this today...

 

It seems to make a good point for the electoral college...saying that it helps gives the smaller states a bit more influence than a purely popular vote would.

[ralis]

http://www.rawstory....lling-stations/

 

http://dispatchpolitics.dispatch.com/content/blogs/the-daily-briefing/2012/11/6-november-2012---ttv-denied.html

 

 

 

The tea party-affiliated group True the Vote has been barred from monitoring polling places in Franklin County, the second largest county in Ohio, after allegedly submitting fraudulent forms.

“The Franklin County Board of Elections did not allow Election Day polling location observer appointments filed by the True the Vote group,” board spokesman Ben Pisctelli told The Columbus Dispatch in a statement. “The appointments were not properly filed and our voting location managers were instructed not to honor any appointment on behalf of the True the Vote group.”

Plunderbund reported that True the Vote had likely falsified or forged election observer forms submitted to the Franklin County Board of Elections. Board member Zachary Manifold told Plunderbund he was “amazed that a group that goes to such extreme lengths to claim voting fraud in Ohio would knowingly forge or misuse signatures to try to gain access to Franklin County polling locations.”

 

True the Vote President Catherine Engelbrecht denied he allegations, insisting that no one trained by True the Vote had done anything illegal or unethical. Engelbrecht said the incident was the Ohio Democratic Party’s “final, desperate attempt to deny citizens their right to observe elections” and vowed to take legal action.

The group had hoped to place poll watchers in predominately African American areas. True the Vote had asked to send poll watchers to 28 precincts in Franklin County — which includes the capital, Columbus. African Americans comprise more than half the population in 20 of the 28 targeted precincts, though they make up only about 12 percent of the state’s total population.

Left-leaning groups have accused True the Vote of seeking to intimidate Democratic voters.

A woman trained by True the Vote told the Franklin County Board of Elections that she had been told to aggressively record suspicious voters with cameras, record their names on a tablet computer, and attempt to stop them from voting. The election board noted that type of activity was illegal.

The Justice Department investigated the poll watching program after receiving a number of complaints about voter intimidation in Hispanic and African-American areas around Houston in 2010. Poll watchers allegedly were hovering over voters and being confrontational with election workers. However, no charges were ever filed against the group.

True the Vote says its campaign is non-partisan, yet its website contains numerous missives attacking liberals, including statements such as “vote fraud is nearly an exclusive crime of the left” and that the left wants “to be able to steal elections at will.”

 

Raw Story(http://s.tt/1skMo)

Edited November 7, 2012 by ralis

[JustARandomPanda]

...

Edited November 7, 2012 by SereneBlue

[Apech]

Who's winning? Gill Stein?

[Aetherous]

HAHA. Yes, she is predicted to win tonight by a large margin.

[Aetherous]

Pretty happy with how things are going nationwide. Colorado voted in favor of recreational marijuana!!!!!!!!

[Marblehead]

Well, its all over. My gal didn't win.

 

I guess we will see if we get any of those changes that were talked about four years ago.

[Apech]

Well looks like Obama four more years. How many votes did our Gill Stein actually get?

[Marblehead]

How many votes did our Gill Stein actually get?

The best I saw was 1% in about 15 states.

[Apech]

The best I saw was 1% in about 15 states.

 

Shame ... I thought more people might use it as a protest vote ... but I suppose most voters still thought they were being offered a real choice by obama-romney.

 

Oh well ... I wish Obama well and hope he makes the right choices for the US and the world. I'd like to see him more friendly with us Brits but we have a rather weak/insignificant prime minister who I can't imagine is worth talking to TBH.

[joeblast]

Wow, seriously!?!?! I guess republican voter fraud cant outdo democrat voter fraud

 

Gold jumped 50 bucks overnight, the fiscal cliff just got 10 times more real, and the supreme court isnt going to be the same for a looong time.

 

Sad day for america. Or should I say Ameuroica, at this point, because all of the bad fiscal problems over there, we just took a huge step towards being in the exact same situations. Sad, sad day.

 

I hate it when the first words out of my mouth on a given day are "you've got to be f*kn kidding me."

[Marblehead]

I'd like to see him more friendly with us Brits but we have a rather weak/insignificant prime minister who I can't imagine is worth talking to TBH.

Hehehe. He is likely unable, as I am, to grasp British humour. (I misspelled 'humor' especially for you.)

[Marblehead]

Wow, seriously!?!?! I guess republican voter fraud cant outdo democrat voter fraud

 

...

 

I hate it when the first words out of my mouth on a given day are "you've got to be f*kn kidding me."

Hehehe.

 

I guess you gonna' hafta' find a way to deal with it, Bubba.

 

The stock markets always drop after a Democrat is elected president. Gold should increase value today. We might even see oil futures drop which would reduce the cost of gasoline.