US Presidential Debate and what is really important to people

[Aetherous]

as if Obama didnt have a ton of 5 figure per plate dinners...

 

I'm not here to argue for the guy, or for the corruption in politics and the media.

[Aetherous]

And here's something to contrast the entirely misleading county map...

 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Please excuse the lateness

 

Oh, if only it were only just a(nother) 2% tax. So the solution is yet another governmental spending orgy, sold on a pack of lies and flawed numbers? Sorry, but look at where the government subsidizes things and there is a very high correlation with the price jumping way up. Healthcare is among the worst of industries where government intervention has made products and services astronomically more expensive than they would have been otherwise. Look at the cost curves for things like healthcare, college, green energy's burning food as fuel...the government screws up, bastardizes, twists to its own ends pretty much everything it puts its greasy mitts on. No pun intended.

 

 

I applaud the states exercising their rights and pushing back at a freakishly large frankenstien central government.

 

True, when the gov't. is footing the bill, prices often go up as the industry knows they will get it. However, that extra cost is not worth spiting at the expense of health care.

 

If you really wanted to know. Lower income people, who don't have health insurance, can usually fill out lots of paperwork and get their bills paid each state has a version of this program

http://www.hhs.gov/r...ry/cms/dsh.html

 

Middle to higher income people really take a gamble without insurance, because you really do have to deplete your assets to pay the bill.

 

Exactly. The people with any financial stability not only get hit with an illness or accident, but losing everything else all at the same time. How do they get better when they are losing everything else around them?

 

Seems like a basic foundation of a collective and democratic society to ensure that no-one is put in this situation. The U.S., the W.E., the M.E., oh and China, are the only wealthy countries without socialized health-care. This situation is nearly unimaginable by most "1st" world citizens, and I use the term broadly.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-healthcare-systems-in-the-world-2012-6?op=1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_coverage_by_country

 

The strange thing too is that it seems like people from the middle class don't want to pay for everyone's health care, and yet they are the same class that has the worst end of the bargain otherwise, not being able to pay for treatment nor eligible for subsidies.

 

Get with the times (Lower Northern) America.

[thelerner]

'turtle shell'

Trust me, that's inaccurate even for part of their income. You may have misunderstood what the article was about, rather than the Times being wrong. This 47% number was something Romney came up with..

/quote screwed up>

 

Hmnn, 47% might be accurate.

 

As I understand it there was a big problem with the large population of working poor who live pay check to paycheck that were being hit with tax bills that 'busted' them and made it easier to give up and go back on welfare. Creating tax favored incentives that reduces very low tax bills to zero actually helped a vast majority stay employed. The tax credits have worked and solved the problem. Its better to forgive an $500 tax bill, then have 10's of thousands of house holds give up on work because the once a year tax hit bankrupts them and causes an economic death spiral.

 

Even with no income tax the poor tend to pay way more taxes as a percentage then most. Between taxes on there paycheck and every dollar they spend its a very high amount.

[joeblast]

True, when the gov't. is footing the bill, prices often go up as the industry knows they will get it. However, that extra cost is not worth spiting at the expense of health care.

think the cost curve is out of control now? we're getting force fed obamacare, let's see what those cost curves look like in a few years after all of the private health insurance is gone (except for the very few that can afford it.) what's the rest of the world going to do when the r&d here all but ceases? are they still going to get all of their prescriptions at the reduced cost?

 

making something "free for everyone" is a sure way to ensure its scarcity. good thing its free, though, otherwise the burden of a few paying for something everyone can use with reckless abandon would blow that whole notion to hell

 

sorry, single payer is going to be a disaster for the USA. who knows what happens when we cant pay for it any longer.

 

what's the nicest state that will secede?

[Aetherous]

Bunch of butt hurt racists attempting to petition the Obama administration to allow their state to secede here:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions

 

I like the petitions regarding deporting those who signed the secession petitions.

 

[Aetherous]

This Brazil topic was brought up earlier, and I just stumbled upon something about it at Fact Check...

 

Did Obama loan $2 billion to Brazil’s oil company to benefit China and George Soros?

The president had nothing to do with the loan, which the Export-Import Bank approved for Brazil to buy U.S.-made equipment and services.

 

- http://www.factcheck.org/hot-topics/

[joeblast]

I merely pointed out the hypocrisy - he could have easily waived a hand and put a stop to it - "since offshore drilling is a problem" and he shut down as much of it as possible off of our shores here, you'd think that since "it was done out of environmental concern" then he'd naturally be concerned about the environment elsewhere, too. Of course not - if the price of oil here is low, that makes the oversubsidized green energy rear its ugly economical head and show a little bit more of its ridiculously expensive nature at this point in time.

 

His DoE "investments" were a big pack of losers as it was, even with assisting in "making conventional energy prices closer to green prices." Does the reason even get past money funneling?

[joeblast]

Bunch of butt hurt racists attempting to petition the Obama administration to allow their state to secede here:

https://petitions.wh...e.gov/petitions

 

I like the petitions regarding deporting those who signed the secession petitions.

 

 

 

Ron Paul: This weekend I got a couple of calls from the media asking me questions about Rick Perry, our governor here in Texas and the statements he made about possible secession. Now, he didn’t call for secession, but he was restating a principle that was long held and at least in the original time of our country, and that is that there was a right to secession.

Actually, after the Civil War, nobody believes there is a so-called right to secession, but it is a very legitimate issue to debate because all of the states that came into the Union before the Civil War believed they have a right to secede and New England in the early part of the 19th century actually considered it, and nobody questioned them about whether they had the right to do it or not.

Since the Civil War, it’s been sort of a dead issue, but he brought it up. It stirred the media and believe me, it really stirred some of the liberal media where they started really screaming about what is going on here. “This is un-American”, I heard one individual say, “This is treasonous to even talk about it.”

Well, they don’t know their history very well because if they think about it, it’s an American tradition. It’s very American to talk about secession. That’s how we came into being. Thirteen colonies seceded from the British and established a new country, so secession is very much an American principle.

What about all the strong endorsements we have given over the past decade or two of those republics that seceded from the Soviet system? We were delighted with this. We never said, “Oh no. Secession is treasonous”.

No. Secession is a good principle. Just think of the benefits that would have come over these last 230-some years if the principle of secession had existed. That means the federal government would always have been restrained, not to overburden the states with too much federalism, too many federal rules and regulations.

But since that was all wiped out with the Civil War, the federal government has grown by leaps and bounds and we have suffered the consequences, and we need to reconsider this. It’s not un-American to think about the possibility of secession. This is something that’s voluntary. We came together voluntarily. A free society means you can dissolve it voluntarily. That was the whole issue was about.

Just remember one of the reasons that Wilson drove us in unnecessarily into World War I. He talked about what we have to give, have every country in the world the benefit of self-determination, a good principle. Of course, I don’t think he really believed that. But self-determination is a good principle. It’s a very American principle, so to me it’s a shame that we can’t discuss this.

You know, it’s interesting that so many of us have been taught for so many years, and as long as I can remember from the first grade on up taking the pledge of allegiance that we have a republic that’s “indivisible” and we have been preached that and preached it. So therefore, there is no contest, no question since the Civil War that we have even the thought that this could happen.

But you know what a lot of people don’t talk about and they really don’t even know about is who wrote the pledge to the flag. The pledge to the flag came from, for instance, Bellamy, an avowed Socialist who wanted to put into concrete in the pledge this principle of being indivisible, and he did it, you know, for the celebration ironically 400 years of the celebration of the landing of Christopher Columbus, so it was in 1892.

I mean, the pledge of allegiance has not been here, you know, all our history. So I think it’s worth of discussion. I think people should discuss this because right now, the American people are sick and tired of it all and I think the time will come when people will consider it much more seriously is when the federal government can no longer deliver. That time will come when the dollar collapses.

No matter what they do and how many promises they have and how many bailouts they have, they can’t do it if the money doesn’t work. So then, the independence of the states will come back and it doesn’t mean that you’ll be un-American to even contemplate what might have to be done once the dollar crashes.

 

While this video was originally recorded on 4/19/2009, Ron Paul spokeswoman Rachel Mills confirmed earlier today (11/13/2012) that Ron Paul “feels the same now” about secession as he did in this video.

[Brian]

Bunch of butt hurt racists attempting to petition the Obama administration to allow their state to secede here:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions

 

I like the petitions regarding deporting those who signed the secession petitions.

 

 

Racist? Seriously?!? Wow.

 

BTW, you might wanna do your homework a little better on the war you reference with that photo, too. I suspect you'll discover things that shake your foundation -- or you'll simply dismiss that which is in discord with your current beliefs. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though, and assume you are capable of LII learning...

Edited November 15, 2012 by A Seeker

[Brian]

FWIW, some may wish to dig up what Thomas Jefferson wrote on the topic of secession after he'd served as President.

[Aetherous]

A Seeker...like what?

 

Regarding secession right now (as well as in the Civil War). Of course it's racist, for the most part. In the Civil War, every state that wanted to secede was a slave state. Today, a President gets re-elected into office, and all of a sudden, within days, it's unacceptable to live in the country? Some use the economy to justify their feelings at the moment, as if Romney would've solved every problem...but they don't realize that the problems of the last 4 years were the inevitable result of the previous 8. With the stimulus, some say that Obama actually saved America from a second Great Depression. They don't realize that to "liberals", Romney didn't seem to have a real plan, and what he spoke of wasn't even sensible (PBS, cutting education, not raising revenue)....in addition to all of the nonsense which revealed how out of the loop he was. We need more naval ships? Raising the Pentagon base budget by shifting war funds?? Obama was giving "gifts" to people and that is the only reason he was reelected? Canceling the credit cards of everyone on his team immediately, so after election night they couldn't even get a taxi ride home? 47%?

 

All the rhetoric in the press and from the Republican party and sympathizers is misleading, and it's leading the United States toward a split! Who was recently talking about how the two parties should work together? Repubs and Romney/Ryan. Remember? Why can't that happen anymore? Just because Obama is in office? Right.

 

Anyway...secession IS partly how America was founded. I do think the states have a right to secede. The question is...how much of the state wants to? If this really happens (I doubt it), the states will probably be required to vote on it. Do you know what percentage of Texas signed the current petition for secession? A little over 4.2%... weak sauce...and the governor isn't actually on board.

Edited November 15, 2012 by turtle shell

[joeblast]

t they don't realize that the problems of the last 4 years were the inevitable result of the previous 8. With the stimulus, some say that Obama actually saved America from a second Great Depression.

oh sweet context. they were the result of the last 20, the last 40, the last hundred years.

 

without ridiculous fed monetization, there's no way they would have been able to make the statistical manipulations necessary to present an argument that government debt didnt create this mess.

[Brian]

LOL

 

For the record, I actually donated to Obama's first campaign and intended to vote for him -- until I did my homework and realized he had some really scary skeletons. Honestly, I could name about half a dozen men of color I'd prefer as President to either Obama or Romney!

 

Is there a racism component in opposition to Obama? Sure! Just as there is a racism component in favor of him. I see no credible evidence so suggest that racism is a significant element of that opposition while it is undeniable (and quite understandable) that racism is a very significant element among his supporters. He and his supporters have been wearing out that race card for the last five years! Guess you stick with what works?

 

As to the civil war (what a stupid name!), I withdraw my offer of doubt...

Edited November 15, 2012 by A Seeker

[Aetherous]

As to the civil war (what a stupid name!), I withdraw my offer of doubt...

 

Thanks for the personal insult.

 

You could have given examples of what you were talking about instead.

[Aetherous]

Just as there is a racism component in favor of him.

 

Definitely. And that's too bad. However, it's shifting the blame to say this. Right now, we're discussing white Americans who now are wanting to secede from the US, simply because one guy was voted into office. As if that ever truly made a difference in our political system.

[Brian]

No, YOU are discussing that on the assumption that it is fact. I am challenging your assumption. You, in response, are denying that the assumption is an assumption. Until you get past the point of declaring that people who helped elect him in '08 but chose to not help reelect them are by definition racist, we have little to discuss.

 

Edited November 15, 2012 by A Seeker

[Aetherous]

I agree, I'm making an assumption. And to assume makes an ass out of u and me (mostly me)...or whatever. But I think my assumption has a lot of truth, and not just for a small percentage of who I'm talking about.

 

I'm not saying everyone who wanted Romney to win this time around is racist. Or that you/joeblast/whoever else is racist...I don't think you guys are.

 

Anyway...

[JustARandomPanda]

A few articles. Whether you agree with them or not is another matter but thought I'd share them as I found them interesting.

 

Could Texas Become a Blue State?

 

 

The Real Reason Cities Lean Democratic

 

2nd one has some very telling maps...one's you've likely not seen before.

[joeblast]

Definitely. And that's too bad. However, it's shifting the blame to say this. Right now, we're discussing white Americans who now are wanting to secede from the US, simply because one guy was voted into office. As if that ever truly made a difference in our political system.

Pointing out that an extremely high percentage of black people voted for him because he's black is shifting blame?

 

Why do you think secession has anything to do with the color of Obama's skin? From over here it simply looks like you've been conditioned to look at things from a race perspective - even if it is "well that's because people seem to be making the most stink of this" which is basically the media, pointing at a family's tipped over mailbox while an adjacent house is consumed by fire.

 

There's a whole lot of people who think like this who are pointing at the burning house and asking why did this happen, is there anyone alive inside, instead of saying I dont know what's wrong with these people that cant even keep their mailbox up.

 

This is about the fundmentals of the country - remember people freakin out when Obama declared he was going to fundamentally transform the country? The fundamentals were about all we had left, were they adhered to - at least the notion was still in existence and somewhat revered, even if it was lip service from half the folks. Running towards the wrong end zone is what Obama and the progressives are after. (Yes I'm saying team Progressive and team America are not playing on the same team.)

 

 

A few articles. Whether you agree with them or not is another matter but thought I'd share them as I found them interesting.

 

Could Texas Become a Blue State?

 

 

The Real Reason Cities Lean Democratic

 

2nd one has some very telling maps...one's you've likely not seen before.

I think the reasoning has much less to do with population density than "when the people discover they can vote themselves largesse from the treasury..."

[Brian]

 

 

Thanks for the personal insult.

 

You could have given examples of what you were talking about instead.

 

It wasn't a personal insult but it WAS dismissive and I am sorry I did that.

 

Few people are wired for level 2 learning so the "offer" was really setting you up to fail and was not kind of me.

 

If you have any interest in exploring some of the suppressed aspects of that great conflict, find out what Lincoln's positions were on slavery during the Lincoln-Douglas debates, find out when South Carolina began petitioning Washington to adhere to the Constitution, find out what Britain & France were doing immediately prior to the issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation, find out in how many states the Republicans bothered to get Lincoln on the ballot in 1860 (and find out how this is related to a wise compromise made by the Founding Fathers), find out about the pre-election dress rehearsals for marching into Dixie "with swords and torches," and find out how many nations he tried to get take US slaves. On the topic of racism, look into black participation in the war on the side of the South, look into non-black slavery & indentured servitude (both in the US and elsewhere in the world), look into the role of free black men in the South prior to the war and compare it to their situation after the war, look into race relations outside the South, and look into the positions of the Democratic Party & its members from the 1820s through today (paying particular attention to the KKK, the civil rights movement and Affirmative Action). That's a starting place and oughta take a few days...

 

I agree, I'm making an assumption. And to assume makes an ass out of u and me (mostly me)...or whatever. But I think my assumption has a lot of truth, and not just for a small percentage of who I'm talking about.

 

I'm not saying everyone who wanted Romney to win this time around is racist. Or that you/joeblast/whoever else is racist...I don't think you guys are.

 

Anyway...

 

I'll throw a monkey-wrench in here and suggest that everyone I've ever encountered has been biased or pre-judgemental at some level on genetic or cultural bases, myself included. In many cases, these prejudices are not unfounded. The important things, though, are recognition of these biases through self-reflection and how these biases inform & affect our behavior.

 

One of the saddest days of my life was trying to explain to my son when he was in first grade why one of his classmates said on the bus ride home from school, as justification for punching my son, "you so white you hurt my eyes." One of my proudest moments was a week or two later when we were called to the teacher's office to discuss how to discipline my son for deliberately breaking all of his crayons in two -- it came out in the discussion that he had broken them so that he could give half to the boy sitting next to him whose family couldn't afford them.

Edited November 16, 2012 by A Seeker

[Aetherous]

A Seeker,

 

That's a lot to look into, and is pretty vague. Is there a good book or documentary that you recommend, which ties it all together? I really don't have the time to start a huge research project here. I've covered some of those topics in a couple of history courses, by the way...and wasn't shaken to my foundation.

 

joeblast,

 

Not to sound offensive in saying this, but I don't see a use in responding to that. My opinion remains what it is, as does yours.

[Brian]

It's gungfu, turtle shell -- what you get out is proportional to the time & effort you put into the work. I intentionally made my suggestions sufficiently vague as to avoid "spoon feeding" yet specific enough so that a few minutes with a search engine would uncover references to contemporaneous & contemporary information that would allow you to explore limits of your current contextual system. Further, I made an effort to spread things over a range of years so that changing dynamics might be reflected, AND I was careful to point fingers at both political parties.

[Aetherous]

Right...well I don't have the time for it, so...

[JustARandomPanda]

Can someone tell me what level 2 learning is?

 

Unless Seeker simply means "university level" in-depth learning?

 

 

Edit: Ah...I see Seeker answered it. Yes...it seems you mean university level research into the issues. Eh...well I wish people would do that with lotsa other issues than just the civil war. But we all have only so much free time or will to do such research. Even 'search engine' searching isn't a guarantee that what you pull up and read is actually *accurate*. Those are 2 separate issues.

Edited November 17, 2012 by SereneBlue