Saving the World & Solar Energy

[Owledge]

Well, sure. But I don't nave the knowledge to do something like that.

 

For a very long time now (many years) thought that electrolysis can be economically attractive.

Well, not the negentropically enhanced one. That one is so economically unattractive that big corporations would like to make it vanish in their vaults.

[Marblehead]

Well, not the negentropically enhanced one. That one is so economically unattractive that big corporations would like to make it vanish in their vaults.

I haven't seen the ad lately but either Honda or Toyota (maybe both) is working on a car that operates on water. I have no idea what the technology is though.

 

I really don't expect to see any serious advances until oil becomes scare. The oil fields must first be milked dry.

 

I still think solar is realistic. Last I heard the panels presently being manufactured are only 25% efficient. If this could be increased to around 75% there would be enough output to operate a medium sized vehicle with full sun.

 

There is that race/competition in Australia every year of solar only cars. These operate without any starage batteries, only the power from the sun.

[Marblehead]

Yeeah mate, I love reading this one. Saving the world can be a great topic. This Ideas can be a big help. Try to wider the view and ideas your sharing

Yes, I do wish I could talk more about this topic based on personal experience but I am rather limited. I have talked about my car, I have talked about the solar system for operating the pumps at the fish ponds, and I have talked about my rain barrels in which I catch rain, when it does rain, haven't had any for a while, to replace evaporation and leakage at the ponds as well as for watering the gardens.

 

Sure, I recycle. Yes, I try fixing things that break before considering replacing them. In the most part I don't waste, and this includes food.

 

Beyond that there isn't much more I can do that I am aware of.

 

But we all can do our part.

[Owledge]

I haven't seen the ad lately but either Honda or Toyota (maybe both) is working on a car that operates on water. I have no idea what the technology is though.

I can almost guarantee you that it's just another tiny step and not the real thing. In the USA there are companies advertising their running-on-water conversion kits, and they don't advertise that clearly that it's merely a small addition of water to the regular combustion process. It's a bit like lean-burn technology. Nothing special.

Also, I consider the Prius outdated technology. It replaces the simplicity of a bit more gasoline consumption with the complexity of battery technology and hybrid engine. Resource-wise not necessarily a clever idea.

 

I still think solar is realistic. Last I heard the panels presently being manufactured are only 25% efficient. If this could be increased to around 75% there would be enough output to operate a medium sized vehicle with full sun.

Well, considering that it's already tricky to further optimize that technology, 25% to 75% is quite a huge jump, almost comically. Basic technologies have their limits. (And I consider things like making laser spark plugs for combustion engines to further optimize the burn process madness.)

[thelerner]

Couple more articles on tech that could help save/clean the world.

 

http://www.globalwaterforum.org/2012/05/28/seawater-greenhouse-a-new-approach-to-restorative-agriculture/

Sample:

Seawater Greenhouse

Just as with desalination, the last few decades have seen tremendous growth in conventional greenhouses around the world. There are now some 200,000 hectares of greenhouses around the Mediterranean, and over 1 million in China, where 30 years ago, there were almost none. This is because yields that are achieved in greenhouses can be 10 to 100 times greater than yields achieved outside. They also enable high value crops to be grown ‘out of season’.

Figure 2.

Evaporative cooling properties of air at 30ºC

The Seawater Greenhouse enables year-round crop production in some of the world’s hottest and driest regions. It does this using seawater and sunlight. The technology imitates natural processes, helping to restore the environment while significantly reducing the operating costs of greenhouse horticulture. In addition to not having to discharge concentrated brine, it also benefits from the fact that high salinity water has a powerful biocidal or sterilising effect on the air that passes through it. This reduces or eliminates airborne pests.

The most important benefit of the Seawater Greenhouse is that it cools and humidifies large volumes of air at very low cost, and to do this, it must evaporate large volumes of seawater, thereby dealing with the discharge from desalination. One hectare of Seawater Greenhouse near the coast will typically evaporate 50 tons of water/day, but this will increase 2-3 fold in regions of low humidity. The effect is illustrated in Figure 2.

Figure 3.

Seawater Greenhouse, Tenerife.

With reduced humidity, lower temperatures (the wet bulb temperature) are achieved and larger volumes of water are evaporated. For example, if we pass air at a temperature of 30ºC and a relative humidity of 70% into a nominal 500m² Seawater Greenhouse, the air will be cooled down to 26ºC and two tonnes of water will be evaporated in 24 hours. If the incoming air has a relative humidity of 20%, the air will be cooled down to 17ºC and nearly three times as much water is evaporated.

The most significant benefit of the process is that the combination of lower temperature and higher humidity reduces plant transpiration up to 10-fold and enables delicate crops such as lettuce and French beans to grow in a hot, arid location.

 

 

Seawater Greenhouse, Oman.

Further, the beneficial effect of the humid exhaust air creates a zone of locally higher humidity which encourages vegetation. The photographs in Figure 4 were taken two years apart in Oman.

Relative humidity almost invariably falls with increasing distance from the coast. Lower humidity means that lower temperatures are achieved and more water is evaporated. The map below illustrates typical daytime humidity across the UAE, with relative humidity at the coast above 70% yet falling to 15% further inland.

<its a much large article but this gives a taste of it>

 

Growing Food in the Desert

the article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/nov/24/growing-food-in-the-desert-crisis

a video on the design:

[Marblehead]

My first awareness of desalination was in the 1960s where a small town just outside Marseilles, France used desalination as their only sourse of potable water. I have never seen where desalination and agriculture have been combined but it sounds like it could be an excellent system in many places around the world.

[joeblast]

Couple more articles on tech that could help save/clean the world.

 

http://www.globalwat...ve-agriculture/

Sample:

Seawater Greenhouse

Just as with desalination, the last few decades have seen tremendous growth in conventional greenhouses around the world. There are now some 200,000 hectares of greenhouses around the Mediterranean, and over 1 million in China, where 30 years ago, there were almost none. This is because yields that are achieved in greenhouses can be 10 to 100 times greater than yields achieved outside. They also enable high value crops to be grown ‘out of season’.

Figure 2.

Evaporative cooling properties of air at 30ºC

The Seawater Greenhouse enables year-round crop production in some of the world’s hottest and driest regions. It does this using seawater and sunlight. The technology imitates natural processes, helping to restore the environment while significantly reducing the operating costs of greenhouse horticulture. In addition to not having to discharge concentrated brine, it also benefits from the fact that high salinity water has a powerful biocidal or sterilising effect on the air that passes through it. This reduces or eliminates airborne pests.

The most important benefit of the Seawater Greenhouse is that it cools and humidifies large volumes of air at very low cost, and to do this, it must evaporate large volumes of seawater, thereby dealing with the discharge from desalination. One hectare of Seawater Greenhouse near the coast will typically evaporate 50 tons of water/day, but this will increase 2-3 fold in regions of low humidity. The effect is illustrated in Figure 2.

Figure 3.

Seawater Greenhouse, Tenerife.

With reduced humidity, lower temperatures (the wet bulb temperature) are achieved and larger volumes of water are evaporated. For example, if we pass air at a temperature of 30ºC and a relative humidity of 70% into a nominal 500m² Seawater Greenhouse, the air will be cooled down to 26ºC and two tonnes of water will be evaporated in 24 hours. If the incoming air has a relative humidity of 20%, the air will be cooled down to 17ºC and nearly three times as much water is evaporated.

The most significant benefit of the process is that the combination of lower temperature and higher humidity reduces plant transpiration up to 10-fold and enables delicate crops such as lettuce and French beans to grow in a hot, arid location.

 

 

Seawater Greenhouse, Oman.

Further, the beneficial effect of the humid exhaust air creates a zone of locally higher humidity which encourages vegetation. The photographs in Figure 4 were taken two years apart in Oman.

Relative humidity almost invariably falls with increasing distance from the coast. Lower humidity means that lower temperatures are achieved and more water is evaporated. The map below illustrates typical daytime humidity across the UAE, with relative humidity at the coast above 70% yet falling to 15% further inland.

<its a much large article but this gives a taste of it>

 

Just in case nobody noticed that "AGW" would mean a huge boom in plant life Water vapor is exponentially more insulating then carbon dioxide.

[thelerner]

Since this is also a saving the world post I thought I'd add this link

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/nuclear_power/2013/01/chernobyl_wildlife_the_radioactive_fallout_zone_is_a_wildlife_refuge_photos.html

Sometimes the world can save itself .

 

But people and their government can make a difference. This is a year old

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-202_162-10011534.html

[Owledge]

The wildlife in the Tchernobyl area are in parts massively radioactive. Lucky that they don't know that. Less chance for cancer to develop if people don't scare you by telling you you're carrying death inside. Also a healthy natural diet.

Saw a documentary a while ago and the wildlife there indeed seems to show no visible signs of radiation poisoning, despite making a geiger counter go crazy.

 

It's always interesting to have a desolate area, for studying how nature reconquers areas. In eastern Germany there are areas where military exercises used to be performed, devoid of any vegetation. Now it's almost a paradise there with many different and rare species.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Owledge

[joeblast]

yeah they're not showing the geiger counters from fukushima in those pics! heard its still pretty....crackly.

[Marblehead]

yeah they're not showing the geiger counters from fukushima in those pics! heard its still pretty....crackly.

Yeah, crackly is not so good.

[thelerner]

yeah they're not showing the geiger counters from fukushima in those pics! heard its still pretty....crackly.

Truth that, but the tsunami covered a vast area way beyond the atomic plants. Its been less then 2 years. Within a year and a quarter clean up and infrastructure recovery are doing remarkably well. There are radiation problems but no where near what the apocalyptic scenarios some predicted.

 

It may be my overly sunny attitude, but in my lifetime most disasters ecological and man made are cleaned up faster then early dire predictions once real work is started. Predictions of generations of dead land don't seem to pan out<with one or two Russian exceptions> Nature itself has amazing resilience, leave it alone and it repairs, best yet don't create harm in the first place.

 

Personally along the route I often drive is a riverlet we'd called the sewage canal when I grew up (for Chicagoans I'm talking the canal along McCormick). It stunk, effort went in to cleaning it, new regulations and enforcements. There are boats in it now, I see fish, frogs, crayfish, turtles! The old signs 'Water contaminated, do not expose to body', are still up, and I'm not going swimming in it, but what a difference.

Edited January 24, 2013 by thelerner

[joeblast]

true, I also appreciate the resiliency of life, but I've also read fukushima was a lot worse than was reported and there was a lot more radiation than reported, not to mention the site itself being still massively irradiated...also not much reported on. I mostly just bet that almost any MSM outlet is only allowed to report (in whatever capacity you want to interpret that) half or two thirds of the story at best.

[Owledge]

Good example of nature's power: Oil spill disaster. Humans try to figure out which chemical to use to neutralize the oil. ... Horrible chemicals which might kill all the oil-eating bacteria that they had no clue about. Man, people don't know shit about the planet they live on. Severe trust and control issues.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Owledge

[thelerner]

http://popupcity.net/2013/01/trend-8-urban-farming-becomes-serious-business/

 

-sample-

As urban farming is becoming a serious business in many cities around the world, it’s interesting to see how the city farming scene extends its influence from a ‘vacant-lots-only’ phenomenon to a ‘rest-of-the-city’ phenomenon. Urban farming shops in the centers of big cities pop-up all over the States. These shops sell stuff to the needs of the urban farmer, varying from seeds and soils to rainwater harvesting barrels, drip irrigation systems and even little roosters. In 2011, New York got it’s urban farming style shop, but also Portland has its Urban Farmers Store, and in Brooklyn some urban farming entrepreneurs run the Haysees’s Big City Farm Supply Store. Egg|Plant Urban Farm Supply is Minnesota’s source of supplies and inspiration for your own backyard homestead. And the Seattle Farm Supply is an urban farming supply company based in the Seattle urban area. Apparently the urban farming niche is big enough in some cities to enable people to make a living from selling equipment, and that’s when it’s becoming interesting. In London, an urban farming meeting hub called Farm:shop can be found in the streets of Hackney. Farm:shop is a workspace, cafe and events venue combined with a farm that produces living and breathing food — literally a farm-in-a-shop.

 

Nice links here.

[thelerner]

Saving the world. Billboards that create water the desert.

 

Here's an expensive system, but the idea is sound and I bet the costs could be greatly minimized.

Edited August 14, 2013 by thelerner

[Owledge]

One wonders why it takes so long before it's actually done.

I mean, this idea is not new. It was definitely widely known decades ago thanks to "Dune". (wind traps)

And I doubt they couldn't do it before due to technical reasons.

 

I guess it has to do with economic problems and the need to conquer new markets and distinguish oneself with new types of products, among various other factors.

[Marblehead]

Saving the world. Billboards that create water the desert.

Yes, there have been folks working on this concept for a while now. I do hope they work it out to where the systems can be used in areas that have very little potable water.

 

And on the subject of Solar energy, I just bought 8 more 100 watt panels to add on to my system. The past couple days I have been working on the existing system, getting it ready for the additions and making it more efficient so that I can use solar for some things in my house as well. (Still right now just enough to run the fish pond pumps but the last couple days I have used it to do some of the charging of the batteries for my electric Honda.) (A goal of mine is to totally recharge the electric Honda batteries from only solar so that I can say that it truely is a solar-electric car.)

[i am]

Its great how available, simple and inexpensive solar is becoming. I'm in the process of rebuilding a little RV right now, and its definitely getting panels.

[Owledge]

Its great how available, simple and inexpensive solar is becoming. I'm in the process of rebuilding a little RV right now, and its definitely getting panels.

It has tiny energy density though. If ecological concerns are taken into account, the total amount of energy created by a solar panel within its lifespan has to be put in perspective to the energy required to manufacture it.

Also, somewhat tragically, all these technologies are helping to obscure the availability of massively superior technologies. I guess the fear-based industry structures have to go the extra mile. Bigger steps would cause too much existential panic.

Personally I don't give any credit to changes like this in industry technologies. They're doing it for the wrong reasons. It's not at all related to courage.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Owledge

[Marblehead]

Its great how available, simple and inexpensive solar is becoming. I'm in the process of rebuilding a little RV right now, and its definitely getting panels.

Yep. The price I paid for these last ones, I get three panels of the price I paid for one 10 years ago.

[thelerner]

I mean, this idea is not new. It was definitely widely known decades ago thanks to "Dune". (wind traps)

And I doubt they couldn't do it before due to technical reasons.

 

I guess it has to do with economic problems and the need to conquer new markets and distinguish oneself with new types of products, among various other factors.

A great bookis'The Boy Who captured the Wind' about a poor African kid, couldn't afford to go to school, got books from the library, made a windmill, attached a generator to it. Uneducated, but very smart, willing to experiment and Use what was at hand.

 

Its my hope a kid like him (now adult) can take the ideas and make it practical on a 3rd world budget. I believe its possible and the best solution. Once the door is open the best solutions are bottom up local, not top down Western, though the ideas and concepts are gold no matter where they come from.

[i am]

It has tiny energy density though. If ecological concerns are taken into account, the total amount of energy created by a solar panel within its lifespan has to be put in perspective to the energy required to manufacture it.

Also, somewhat tragically, all these technologies are helping to obscure the availability of massively superior technologies. I guess the fear-based industry structures have to go the extra mile. Bigger steps would cause too much existential panic.

Personally I don't give any credit to changes like this in industry technologies. They're doing it for the wrong reasons. It's not at all related to courage.

 

Has that already been discussed in this thread? I didn't read the whole thing....just saw the topic and jumped in!

 

I agree, on the terms you're talking about. I hate generators, and don't want to have to drive my camper to charge the batteries, if I didn't otherwise need to drive it.

 

But the argument on how much something costs to produce, compared to what you get out of it, is obviously a legitimate one. Like ethanol, oil sands, de-salinating sea water etc.

[thelerner]

I wish this thread were renamed 'Ideas for saving the World (& Solar Energy)

 

In any case I just saw this video. More of a Saving Ourselves kinda thing.

 

shorter one:

 

Edited September 23, 2013 by thelerner

[Marblehead]

Well, so you went off topic. Not the first person to ever do that.

 

I must confess, he can do more activities than I can. But like he said, he has been doing that kind of stuff all his like. And I totally agree with him - just because we get old doesn't mean we have to sit down and die.

 

My solar system isn't working so well right now because I haven't seen the sun for two days now. But it did rain so I have make-up water for the ponds as well as water for the gardens.