Saving the World & Solar Energy

[soaring crane]

Hmnn, back to the OP. This is the Saving the World and Solar Energy thread.

 

thanks for the reminder :-)

 

This thing just went online:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanpah_Solar_Power_Facility

 

Looks like incredible engineering, but I wonder about something. I think the loss of power from the site all the way to San Fansisco is going to be substantial. I hope this doesn't turn into a boondoggle.

[Marblehead]

There's a deal here in the UK where if a householder has solar panels on a suitable roof they receive some sort of subsidy towards payment from the government.

We've seen quite a few solar roofs being installed hereabouts.

It's not something we ever looked at for this place though.

The main house is a listed building so the exterior cannot be altered.

Three miles offshore from where we are moving to they are building what will be Europe's largest wind farm once it is completed.

Yeah, the first time I looked at the laws here in Florida you had to have a certified solar technician inspect the system for output capacity. Cost: $500.00. Then it had to be re-certified annually. Cost: $300.00 per year.

 

That would eat up all my savings from the solar system.

 

Forget them!

[Marblehead]

thanks for the reminder :-)

 

This thing just went online:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanpah_Solar_Power_Facility

 

Looks like incredible engineering, but I wonder about something. I think the loss of power from the site all the way to San Fansisco is going to be substantial. I hope this doesn't turn into a boondoggle.

The one in Spain has been on-line for over five years and the construction of the second one should be almost finished by now.

[thelerner]

This thing just went online:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanpah_Solar_Power_Facility

 

Looks like incredible engineering, but I wonder about something. I think the loss of power from the site all the way to San Fansisco is going to be substantial. I hope this doesn't turn into a boondoggle.

Interesting. That's one of those mirror facilities. Cool, but there are pictures of unlucky birds going down in flame from above'em. Even there in comparison they do less bird damage then convention power plants. Though when they 'get' a bird it is spectacular. Someone pointed out if we could put a windmill behind it the birds would cooked, chopped and ready for the table!

[Vmarco]

Maybe, maybe not. Can you prove it? Or does it always require an amount of faith?

 

You mean that the "materialistic/empirical point of view is fundamentally dishonest."

 

My personal view, as well as the view of prajnaparamita, is that empirical evidence encourages incurable neurosis. Nothing wrong with empirical evidence if understood in its proper place, that is, empiricism is based on objects that ultimately do not exist. Empirical evidence is Skandha evidence. The Skandhas are not real.

[GrandmasterP]

We have some small scale solar farms here in Blighty.

There has been opposition from the Greens insofar as they reckon we don't have enough farm land as it is for growing crops without setting aside fields for mirrors and such.

Edited September 15, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

We have some small scale solar farms here in Blighty.

There has been opposition from the Greens insofar as they reckon we don't have enough farm land as it is for growing crops without setting aside fields for mirrors and such.

Tell them to stop making so many babies and then they wouldn't need as much land for growing food.

[soaring crane]

We have some small scale solar farms here in Blighty.

There has been opposition from the Greens insofar as they reckon we don't have enough farm land as it is for growing crops without setting aside fields for mirrors and such.

 

that's a fake argument on their part. The ground between and below the collectors is still usable

 

 

I'm not defending the practice with heart and soul, just saying that it's not as cut and dried as the Grünen would like it to be.

[thelerner]

Reading this article http://www.bbc.com/news/business-32082968  made me think of this thread.

 

excerpt:

 

"Later this year, the UN is expected to adopt the World Bank's ambitious target of ending extreme poverty by 2030.

It would mean that for the first time, everyone in the world would able to afford a refrigerator and other goods that would make life a bit easier.

 

But, what would it take? Could we really see the end of poverty within a generation?

 

First, there's been a great deal of progress already.

 

The poverty rate in the developing world has more than halved since 1981. Back then, 52% of people in developing countries lived on less than $1.25 (84p) per day. That's now dropped to 15%.

 

In terms of the UN's Millennium Development Goals, it meant that the target of halving poverty by 2015 from 1990 levels was achieved five years early. In 1990, more than one-third (36%) of the world's population lived in abject poverty. That was halved to 18% in 2010.

For China, which has accounted for the bulk of the poverty reduction in the past few decades, the answer is economic growth.

But, it was due largely to China. So, there are still about a billion people who live in extreme poverty.

 

Sub-Saharan Africa is the only region where the number of poor people has increased during the past three decades.

Even though the percentage of the African population living in extreme poverty is slightly lower than in 1981 - population growth means that the number of people has actually doubled.

 

They account for more than one-third of the poor in the world, despite Africa making up just 11% of the global population.

By contrast, in East Asia, progress has been remarkable. four out of five people, or 80%, lived in poverty in 1981, and that rate has now dropped to 8%. On current trends, the fastest-growing region in the world could see the end of poverty within a generation.. "

 

Good article. 

[thelerner]

Thought this was interesting and could set a future savior:

 

a space half the size of a football field growing 10,000 heads of lettuce a day.  Using 99% less water.. wow.  And its not ideaware, its been built.

#5. Shigeharu Shimamura's Indoor Farm: Making Traditional Farms Look Like Shit

Kyodo/AP

Imagine you're standing in 2011 Japan, surveying the devastation left in the wake of the tsunami. What would you do? We know what we would do: We would fill our drawers with a relentless stream of liquid terror poo. Shigeharu Shimamura, on the other hand, is apparently immune to such humanly fears. Instead, he surveyed what looked like the aftermath of a vengeful god dick-slapping a Sony semiconductor factory and said, "Yep, I can use that to solve world hunger."

 

So, his company Mirai Industry Co., Ltd. transformed the factory into the world's largest indoor farm, and, according to the figures, they're off to a damn good start: It's 100 times more productive than traditional dirt farming, uses 40 percent less electricity, 99 percent less water, and wastes 80 percent less food.

The farm's LED lights are a shade of fuchsia best described as "violent," which tricks the plants into optimizing their day/night cycles for the optimal rate of photosynthesis (that's science-speak for "it makes stuff grow real fast"). There are 17,500 of these high-tech lights in the farm's 25,000 square feet of garden beds. Shimamura and his company assure us that eating something that's been this aggressively pinked will not, in fact, transform us into a race of Hello Kitties.

 

Continuing with our numbers theme, the farm yields a massive 10,000 heads of lettuce every day, allowing a single installation like this to comfortably feed a small nation (if said nation consists of rabbits). It's also pesticide -- and bacteria -- free, which explains why the workers appear to have stepped straight out of The Stand.

General Electric
That, and to protect them from the spit of mutant plants.

Similar farms have been built by Mirai in Mongolia, and more are planned in Russia and Hong Kong. So, while they haven't saved the world yet, the future's at least looking bright for our BLTs.

 

Excerpt: on it's efficiency:

"

Following the 2011 earthquake and subsequent tsunami that plunged the whole country of Japan in turmoil, a local food shortage ensued.  An inspired entrepreneur, Shigeharu Shimamura, took an old semiconductor factory that was abandoned following the disaster and turned it into the largest indoor farm in the world. Using state of the art growing technology, his company manages to make some 10,000 heads of lettuce per day out of the 25,000 square feet facility. This makes it 100 times more productive per square foot than traditional agriculture, all with 40% less power, 80% less food waste and 99% less water usage than outdoor fields.

 

The massive productivity is mainly achieved by manipulating the plants’ day and night cycles. Using custom developed LEDs from General Electric, scientists have shortened the day/night cycle for the lettuce, to such an extent that they grow two and a half times faster. Besides lightning, systems are in place that fine-tune other important factors like humidity and temperature. Stacking growth mediums atop each other further boosts productivity per square foot.

 

Productivity is not only increased by producing more, but by wasting less. In a conventional agriculture setting more than 30% of the lettuce grown ends up in the trash heap, while just 3% of Shimamura’s special “coreless” indoor lettuce gets wasted.

 

Currently, the process is “only half automated. Machines do some work, but the picking part is done manually. In the future, though, I expect an emergence of harvesting robots. For example, a robot that can transplant seedlings, or for cutting and harvesting, or transporting harvested produce to be packaged,” according to a report issued by the Japanese company. Once the process becomes fully automated, productivity is expected to rise even further.

“I believe that, at least technically, we can produce almost any kind of plant in a factory. But what makes most economic sense is to produce fast-growing vegetables that can be sent to the market quickly. That means leaf vegetables for us now. In the future, though, we would like to expand to a wider variety of produce. It’s not just vegetables we are thinking about, though. The factory can also produce medicinal plants. I believe that there is a very good possibility we will be involved in a variety of products soon,” says Shimamura.

What makes the prospect so appealing is that this is a self-contained design that can be implemented anywhere. Once you have the technology and science well in place, you can transfer operations to anywhere on the globe, and true enough  the same technologies has been announced and is now under construction in Hong Kong, with Mongolia, Russia and mainland China. Like Shimamura stated earlier, however, this approach only works in some limited cases, most notably crowded cities with expensive real-estate.

 

One can imagine such micro-facilities made by small producers right in the heart of cities, thus stocking a daily, fresh supplies of farm goods. As the costs of installing large scale or small scale indoor farming go down, expect to hear more of such endeavors. Who knows, maybe soon there’ll be one in your very own city.

Read more: http://www.zmescience.com/science/biggest-indoor-farm-more-productive-0423432/#ixzz3a94pqqck

Edited May 14, 2015 by thelerner

[Stosh]

Did some math, they needed some really cheap supply of lights. at about 25$ per sqft, that I might pay ,  I come up with 7.5millon dollars just for those. The lettuce might bring 9.1 million dollars per year, and thats not counting transportation labor etc. Constant use may limit the life of the leds to 5 years , I dont know if they lose much output before then. 

It looks like a system that might work if particular costs like for land and labor are high. Im just surprised they grow so much lettuce , at 2 bucks a head..... 

[thelerner]

Did some math, they needed some really cheap supply of lights. at about 25$ per sqft, that I might pay ,  I come up with 7.5millon dollars just for those. The lettuce might bring 9.1 million dollars per year, and thats not counting transportation labor etc. Constant use may limit the life of the leds to 5 years , I dont know if they lose much output before then. 

It looks like a system that might work if particular costs like for land and labor are high. Im just surprised they grow so much lettuce , at 2 bucks a head..... 

true, still the lights (and building) work for years so the cost could be spread over there lifetime (if 8 years then less then $1 million a year).  GE is onboard so they may be getting bulbs cheaply <& cheaper if mass produced in the future).  Really getting an 7 or 8 5 or 6% return on total investment isn't a bad thing, especially when it potentially does so much good, ie they're shipping produce, say within 5 miles versus 60.  And its Japan where prices for produce are high, land prices astronomical.  It'll be interesting to see the economics as they experiment with other crops.

 

Keep in mind its also a prototype so costs could be reduced as they perfect and multiply the system.  It doesn't look like they're doing it but they could supplement with sunlight, with some changes to the roof, to save energy and bulb life. 

 

It may be going bigger or smaller could be the answer.  With something a tenth that size; I'm imagining something attached to a large grocery store (or above it) that used similar methods and grew just enough varied produce for that store could be a sweet spot (or not). 

 

Also look at the alternative of doing it the normal way.  Would it be $50 million(? no idea actually, I assume fertile land in Japan is extraordinarily expensive) for the acreage, millions (?) for equipment, charges for 100 x more water and increased labor?  I know transportation costs there are high and slow. 

 

Its all about synergies and economics, but Whole Foods and there ilk has shown people will pay a premium for quality. 

 

It may also be about getting these places to where people need food most.  Creating smaller easily created 'Ikea' style factories that can be set up in famished areas would be tremendous.  Even at a total loss, hiring natives, native distribution, setting up cooperatives to replicate indoor stacked hyper farms might be tremendous. 

 

Edited May 17, 2015 by thelerner

[Stosh]

I really really like the synergy idea. Such as using methane from landfills to run machinery. High temp incinerators to remove waste and provide power etc. Not enough of that kind of efficiency is attempted. So much opportunity is squandered. Its nice to see some creativity, solar tubes are a great idea, it looks like they are aiming at simplicity. Maybe they went with solar panels for predictability.

 

Id like to see that underground or in an ultra hi rise. ,

 

Every time money changes hands the gov steps in to grab some , working cooperatively should always have a big advantage.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Stosh

[silent thunder]

Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting.  We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value.  ~ Buckminster Fuller

[thelerner]

How an Iron Fish prevents Disease   http://www.bbc.com/news/health-32749629

 

His invention, shaped like a fish, which is a symbol of luck in Cambodian culture, was designed to release iron at the right concentration to provide the nutrients that so many women and children in the country were lacking.

 

The recipe is simple, Dr Charles says.  "Boil up water or soup with the iron fish for at least 10 minutes.  That enhances the iron which leaches from it.  You can then take it out. Now add a little lemon juice which is important for the absorption of the iron."

 

If the iron fish is used every day in the correct way, Dr Charles says it should provide 75% of an adult's daily recommended intake of iron - and even more of a child's.

If it's something that is culturally acceptable and not too costly, it would be of great benefit Prof Imelda Bates, Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine

Trials on several hundred villagers in one province in Cambodia showed that nearly half of those who took part were no longer anaemic after 12 months.  Prof Imelda Bates, head of the international public health department at Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, says the iron fish is a welcome development. 

 

These sort of approaches are so much better than iron tablets, which are really horrible.  If it's something that is culturally acceptable and not too costly, then any improvement to anaemia levels would be of great benefit.

 

Around 2,500 families in Cambodia are now using the iron fish and the Lucky Iron Fish company has distributed nearly 9,000 fish to hospitals and non-governmental organizations in the country.

 

One woman and her daughter, who are part of a current trial in Preah Vihear Province, told the BBC they would use it during cooking.   "I'm happy, the blood test results show that I have the iron deficiency problem, so I hope will be cured and will be healthy soon.  I think all the people in Sekeroung village will like the fish, because fish is our everyday food."

 

The World Health Organization estimates that two billion people - over 30% of the world's population - are anaemic, mostly due to iron deficiency.

 

It says stopping iron deficiency is a priority - for individuals and countries.  "The benefits are substantial. Timely treatment can restore personal health and raise national productivity levels by as much as 20%," it has said.  And it emphasises that it is the poorest and most vulnerable who stand to gain the most from its reduction.

 

But there are other forms of anaemia. It can also be caused by vitamin B12 and A deficiencies, parasitic infections, such as malaria, and other infectious diseases.

 

Iron deficiency anaemia is a condition where a lack of iron in the body leads to a reduction in the number of red blood cells.  Iron is used to produce red blood cells, which help store and carry oxygen in the blood.  If there are fewer red blood cells than normal, your organs and tissues will not get as much oxygen as they usually would.  This means you can suffer from tiredness, shortness of breath, heart palpitations and a pale complexion.

 

If left untreated it can make people more susceptible to illness and infection.  Pregnant women and children are particularly vulnerable. Anemia is thought to contribute to 20% of all deaths during pregnancy.

Source: World Health Organization

Edited May 17, 2015 by thelerner

[blue eyed snake]

Iron FIsh-

 

thank you for posting,

such an easy and good solution!

[gendao]

that's a fake argument on their part. The ground between and below the collectors is still usable

I'm not defending the practice with heart and soul, just saying that it's not as cut and dried as the Grünen would like it to be.

That's not very usable to grow any crops with, that need sunlight and vertical growing space, not mostly shade...

 

Solar stations should be located on non-arable land, like the Kalahari Desert.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, and even my inefficient photo-voltaic panels paid for themselves in 5 1/2 years so that now all the energy I get from them is totally free.

[zerostao]

Yeah, and even my inefficient photo-voltaic panels paid for themselves in 5 1/2 years so that now all the energy I get from them is totally free.

you know the koch brothers are proposing a new tax for Every solar panel, right?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/27/opinion/sunday/the-koch-attack-on-solar-energy.html?_r=0

 

"At long last, the Koch brothers and their conservative allies in state government have found a new tax they can support. Naturally it’s a tax on something the country needs: solar energy panels.For the last few months, the Kochs and other big polluters have been spending heavily to fight incentives for renewable energy, which have been adopted by most states. They particularly dislike state laws that allow homeowners with solar panels to sell power they don’t need back to electric utilities. So they’ve been pushing legislatures to impose a surtax on this increasingly popular practice, hoping to make installing solar panels on houses less attractive."

[Marblehead]

Oh!, there are lots of multi-millionaires and billionaires who are always finding new ways to tax people.  Not so much a new thing but sure, nothing is sacred (hehehe).

 

Here in Florida we have a lead/acid battery impact tax.  Buy a new battery, pay the tax.  Of course, Florida has nothing to do with recycling the old batteries but that doesn't matter.

[voidisyinyang]

The genetic engineering of algae is fascinating - the algae switches off a gene that sucks in CO2 when the CO2 levels are high - and so 2 genes are changed to keep the sucking up of CO2 going - to increase biomass growth.

 

Maybe this stuff will take over the planet Franken Algae as the new Oilgae fuel and food source.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I have been keeping my eyes on this development.  I doubt it will become generally available during my lifetime but it is an interesting concept.

 

But there is wind and solar energy available now.

[zerostao]

http://www.offgridquest.com/energy/spray-on-solar

[Marblehead]

Yep, all good ideas but they are not getting the money to develop.  I saw a short piece in a documentary about the see-through panels over a years ago but have heard nothing since.

 

Big money is still in oil and ain't nothing going to change that until the planet runs out of oil.

[thelerner]

I don't blame big oil.  Matter of fact some big oil companies are sponsoring much alternative energy.  Not that there heroic, but selling energy is selling energy.  Solar and wind prices have been dropping dramatically.  Battery storage is still problematic, but we're finally seeing some movement, albeit expensive on that front.  Still, no big breakthroughs, just incremental improvements. 

 

For 40 years I've followed alternative energy, and yearly seen hyped products that never make it.  In the age of the internet I (naively?) don't think its evil forces, as much as the numbers not adding up or initial costs too high. 

 

Oh well,  planting my garden today.  $3 plants turning into living factories that produce many pounds of vegetables.