Taiji Pole/Chong Mai

[Shagrath]

In past few weeks I got really interested in Penetrating/Thrusting/Center/Chong Vessel and Taiji Pole. Some resource say that Chong Mai is in the Taiji Pole, and then others call Taiji Pole Center Vessel which is the name also of Chong Mai. There are lot of information about them but they are not clear about neither of them.

 

So, is Taiji Pole different name for Thrusting Vessel? What are they? Can you recommend some good resource upon that?

 

Thanks.

[Practitioner]

Admittedly do not know much about it. Dr Yang Jwing-Ming in one of his video seminar says that the chong-mai is the pathway in which one brings up chi directly to the third eye to achieve enlightenment and intuition. He says that in pre historic times the third eye was always open, but man's lying and deceit caused it to close.

 

He said that the lower dantien's purpose was to house high quantities of chi. He said that the upper dantien's purpose was to create a sublimated, high quality chi, wehich then you lead to the third eye. The chong-mai is the pathway that one uses to lead chi from one dantien to the other. So in that sense, I guess you could say that it had the qualities of being dual bi-polar, and at the same time being the part in which a thing (chi) goes from one state to the other.

 

I have no clue on how much of this he practices, or that if he practices what he preaches, but he supposedly took these theories from very old chinese documents. He has a book on this, I forgot which one.

 

In any manner, interesting theories nonetheless.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Practitioner

[GrandmasterP]

[GrandmasterP]

Thrusting channel and 'pole' may be different words for the same channel. Chi Dragon would know. I wonder if the pictogram 'pole' might imply a hollow bamboo water pipe or a flexible bamboo. It's a barrier for sure. Students who use the P word may be rigid within. Where that occurs I recommend using a Tai Chi ruler set. Like the one above. That externalises and helps towards dispersing rigidity of approach.

Once they get that out of ther system they can begin QiGong cultivation.

Playwell Martial Arts in London sell a superb ruler ruler for £9-00 plus postage.

HTH

Good luck with your cultivation.

[Shagrath]

@Practitioner: Thank you for your quick answer. I think he discussed that in his Understanding Qigong DVD's.

 

 

@GrandmasterP: Thank you for your suggestions. The "Taiji Pole" concept is from Dr. Jerry Alan Johnson's book Chinese Medical Qiqong Therapy Vol.1 - Energetic Anatomy and Physiology. I really don't think Jerry is rigid inside.

 

 

About Center Channel/Meridian I have read in Robert Peng's book Qigong Master. And about Thrusting channel I have read in Dr. Yang Jwing Ming books.

 

But still I am not sure are they talking about the same channel?

[寒月 Hanyue]

In past few weeks I got really interested in Penetrating/Thrusting/Center/Chong Vessel and Taiji Pole. Some resource say that Chong Mai is in the Taiji Pole, and then others call Taiji Pole Center Vessel which is the name also of Chong Mai. There are lot of information about them but they are not clear about neither of them.

 

So, is Taiji Pole different name for Thrusting Vessel? What are they? Can you recommend some good resource upon that?

 

Thanks.

 

No the 'taiji pole' from JAJ is not the 'thrusting' vessel or chongmai in Chinese medicine.

 

The zhongmai (central channel) is the core of a larger column of qi between heaven and earth, this is the tai chong (great/grand thoroughfare). The zhongmai runs between baihui and huiyin, and today many confuse it with chongmai (thrusting channel). The 'standard' chongmai route runs up the front of the torso, loops under the torso, goes up the spinal cord, and even has a path running down the leg. Though it is the spinal path most think of. In fact there are lots of arguments of the route of chongmai because of this. According to Jeffrey Yuen, Daoist priest/lineage holder and Chinese doctor, the chongmai is actually a later outgrowth of the zhongmai hence the different route.

 

In both Chinese medicine and alchemy, the concept of the taichong is linked to the chongmai as being the central conduit of qi in the body around which all the other qimai revolve. Luo Dong-Yi [17th century Chinese doctor] views the taichong with the diffusion of yuanqi throughout the body. Li Shizhen's Qijing bamai kao (Investigation of the extra vessels and eight channels) and Zhang ziyang's Bamai jing ( Eight vessel classic) are worth chasing up and absorbing.

 

Some of the confusion comes from equating names from Daoist alchemy with Chinese medical theory, they are not the same thing. Which isn't to say there is no overlap either. So chongmai as a name fits the nature of both the central channel and the spinal channel. And it isn't technically wrong to use for either of them, but it causes confusion.

 

The zhongmai, renmai, dumai, and chongmai are 'aspects' of the taichong, and the daimai spirals this creating a three-dimensional energetic structure that forms during the embryonic period. Though in TCM they focus on these 'three torso' mai more (zhongmai is ignored), older texts actually put much emphasis upon how things rise from the very bottom, hence the other four qijing bamai.

 

Many throughout Chinese history have attempted to manke sense of and map these things, the above is a view shared by famous Chinese doctors and Daoists who shared notes and then wrote commentaries on it all. It makes the most sense to me out of all the perspectives I've seen.

 

Hope this helps,

 

"The essence qi [jingqi 精氣] invariably soars up along the grand thoroughfare and ascends to irrigate the yin and yang. Thus, a person's primal qi and esence qi all arise from below. Moreover, in arising from below, they divide into three pathways and ascend [this is the ren, du, and chong]."

 

"Hence, the sages did not call them chong, du, and ren, but referred to them [collectively] as the grand thoroughfare. The name grand thoroughfare refers to the arising ascent of essence qi within the body and does not only mean the sea of blood." Nei jing bo yi (1675) Luo Dong-Yi

Edited October 10, 2012 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

The movie portrays the image of Dogen in the lotus flower, rising on a column of white light. Perhaps this is the taiji pole of which you speak?

 

JAJ generally describes the "taiji pole" as running from huiyin to baihui. It always appeared to me to be his way of using the alchemical map of the zhongmai (central channel) AND the TCM map of the chongmai (spinal route).

 

The larger column of qi between Heaven and Earth described in my previous post, I first saw during Shaktipat. My teacher described it as being the real "sushumna" or central channel, rather than simply the small aspect of it inside the body generally described. We stand within this channel. I have subsequently seen and felt this energetic structure most often when practicing medical qigong, particularly when my teacher is around . Lots of columns and spirals.

 

I do not know if JAJ is infact referring to this with his concept of "taiji pole" I've never seen this term elsewhere.

 

In the classics of China, Daoist and medical, the best and only thing I have found that describes this is the taichong (grand/great thoroughfare). However it seems this is seldom mentioned .

 

Best,

Edited October 10, 2012 by snowmonki

[Shagrath]

WAU! Thank you snowmonki for this knowledgeable answer. This clears up a lot of things and yet brings out more questions I have always seen that the Chong Mai goes through the legs, in front of abdomen and up the spinal cord but I thought its bad representation because Yang Jwing Ming and others called Chong Mai the channel that strictly goes up the spine and connects 3 Dan Tiens. So that is Zhong Mai. Why isn't there any Zhong Mai in majority of TCM books and its not part of eight extraordinary vessels? Can you recommend some literature that are mentioning Zhong Mai? Do you know any practice that can strengthen Zhong channel?

Edited October 11, 2012 by Shagrath

[Shagrath]

I found this on internet http://www.taijiwuxigong.com/cleansing_energy_channels.htm and some Zhong Yuan Qigong (that is 7000 years old :) )

[寒月 Hanyue]

WAU! Thank you snowmonki for this knowledgeable answer. This clears up a lot of things and yet brings out more questions I have always seen that the Chong Mai goes through the legs, in front of abdomen and up the spinal cord but I thought its bad representation because Yang Jwing Ming and others called Chong Mai the channel that strictly goes up the spine and connects 3 Dan Tiens. So that is Zhong Mai. Why isn't there any Zhong Mai in majority of TCM books and its not part of eight extraordinary vessels? Can you recommend some literature that are mentioning Zhong Mai? Do you know any practice that can strengthen Zhong channel?

 

You're most welcome.

 

The energy bodies qimai (qi channels) can be a confusing area with all the variations of the 'map'.

 

Let me make one thing clear, there has NEVER been only one version of these maps. The qimai, what they are, their functions, their routes etc there has always been changes and variations throughout Chinese history.

 

TCM is THE WORST source for information on the qijing bamai, TCM is simply not concerned with the topic and bar the ren and du simply pays it lip service. This occurs in the textbooks where they mention or list them and show the route, and maybe show the associated points, but do not have any deeper awareness or understanding. Why? because its not needed in TCM.

 

Now there have been branches of classical (pre 1949) Chinese medicine that use more in depth appreciation of the qijing bamai, but there were as many flavours of Chinese medicine as there are ice cream and they were'nt all created equal. Hence the standardisation process last century. It should be noted however that this was NOT the first time the Chinese state had standardised Chinese medicine.

 

The 'zhong' (centre, middle, central) channel is the one that runs straight through the torso, it is usually depicted as running all the way from huiyin to baihui. But sometimes it is shown as shorter. Going from say huiyin to the heart area for example.

 

Now another important thing to note. Just because a method or system shows or describes a map with say, the central channel only going upto the heart DOES NOT mean that the central channel ONLY goes upto the heart!! No, it simply means that THAT method and system focuses on opening and utilising that part of the channel, and is not so concerned about the rest.

 

In the same way that a diagram showing the 7 "major cakra" does not mean that that system is not aware of, or that all the other minor chakra do not exist haha Diagrams used by a system or method are being used to illustrate a specific thing, and should be understood for doing so. Assuming that it implies they are unaware of or that something doesn't exist in that system because the diagram doesn't have it is fallicious thinking in my opinion.

 

The maps and theories from Daoist alchemy are NOT the same as those in medicine. Though at times they have been merged, like in the Qijing bamai kao. So today we generally have three types of 'maps'.

1. Medical
    
   
2. Alchemical
    
   
3. Qigong
   

Medical can be split into two, 'standardised' and 'classical', there is overlap but the approach and teaching of qimai theory is quite different between these two in my experience.

 

Alchemical, these maps vary from school to school, and depend upon the goals and methods used.

 

Qigong, these maps are derived from either alchemical ones, medical ones, or are an attempt at a hybrid between the two.

 

Thesedays I simply ignore popular qigong authors like Yang Jwing-ming and their attempts at universalising maps from disparate and unrelated sources. I go to the source and read the classics myself, and only use that as a mirror to be held against what I'm experiencing via what I'm taught by my teacher.

 

Let's also calrify something. ALL the qimai have primary and main routes, and secondary routes. Usually the routes depicted in diagrams are the main routes that run near the surface, why? because those maps are for acupuncturists, and acupuncturists are only interested in what they can stab with a needle.

 

Chongmai doesn't connect the three dantians, it's main route is the spinal channel, but the rest of it is still the chongmai

 

And no the spinal route is NOT zhongmai, thought I'd covered that . The central channel is just that, and the three dantian, or more accurately, the centre of the dantians are along the zhongmai. When the zhongmai is straight that is.

 

The zhongmai is alchemical and is also found in martial arts, though in martial arts it has usually been reducued to a physical sense of the central pivot line of the body. It is related to the flow between Heaven and Earth and really has much more to do with spirirtual things that the spinal route of the chongmai. TCM is not really concerned with the higher spiritual things, but on balancing out the body. As I said they don't really work with or focus on any of the Qijing bamai, other than the renmai and dumai. And that is simply because they at least have points of their own. There are of course exceptions to the rule.

 

It tends to be people also involved in Daoism that bring these aspects into their medicine.

 

Eight extraordinary vessels is a translation I also used for a long time, and is pretty much standard. However the Chinese reads 'Qi' (extra) 'Jing' (channel) 'Ba' (eight) 'Mai' (vessels), so a direct translation is "extra channels, eight vessels". I know of a well respected and old Beijing doctor with a reknown for his channel theory who says that the Qijing bamai should be considered the extra-ordinary channels, and the map to help you understand them shows you eight. Which implies there are more than simply the basic eight. Interesting huh?

 

Recommended literature was in my previous post. Best thing I can pass on is HOW to start looking and finding reliable and decent information beyond that synthesis of 'pop' qigong authors, blargh So I gave you the names of various old texts and prominent people in Chinese history whose opinion is worth looking at. I'll give a more recent author and respected cultivator though, who investigates this but concludes differently to what I've written. I still like their work though and I know they've read the classics I mentioned because their descriptions of how the qi bodies open up through meditation are rooted and first appeared in those classics Tao & Longevity by the recently deceased Master Nan.

 

Ah, practices!

 

Most cultivation paths, Buddhist and Daoist work with and on the zhongmai. But I'll throw out two practices in a classic Daoist fashion, yin & yang wuwei & yuwei.

1. Jinggong or jingzuo leading to zuowang.
    
   
2. Zhongmai breathing: Breathing in and down to lower dantian and up and back out again.
   

I am not a fan, practitioner, nor advocate of 'qigong' methods that utilise "yunqi", moving qi about the channels with the yi. These methods are largely prescriptive in nature, and like messing with your breathing patterns can unbalance your system. Especially if played with without a teacher or establishing a firm basis of deep awareness and presence to the natural and current flow, movement, and rhythms within your body. Zhongmai breathing is not yunqi based qigong, nor is it an unnatural breathing method. It is a presence and awareness method.

 

It is strange because the majority of both the old Daoist and Buddhist texts do not utilise or refer to 'yunqi' methods. Please bear this in mind. Playing around with your zhongmai is NOT recommended.

 

Good luck,

Edited October 11, 2012 by snowmonki

[GrandmasterP]

Brilliant post.

Thank you Snowmonki.

'A day without learning is a day wasted'

I have certainly learned something new by reading your excellent piece this evening.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thank you for the kind words,

 

There has never been an across the board consensus on this. The above is based from direct experience and what is in the 'archive' that supported and explained that experience with the most clarity.

 

Maps are meant to be helpful, but can often cause more headache than they should.

 

Some of my teachers have liked to use maps, others prefer not to. These days I appreciate and understand why so many maps were left loose and with ambiguity! It does mean a decent teacher is needed to provide the right guidance and perspective in practice (your compass).

 

I've seen many chase after maps, or grab them from indiscriminate sources and feel they can use them.

 

A map, however, doesn't work so well without a compass

 

Best,

Edited October 13, 2012 by snowmonki

[Shagrath]

Thank you again snowmonkey for your answer and recommended reading and yes you have left me speechless

 

I think that I have understood what you are saying in total but please let me just recapitulate your posts with my words to see if we are on the same page, to prevent any confusion and distortion of words. Please in few word just correct me if I’m mistaken at any point.

 

You should not believe everything you read or hear just for the reason the author is Chinese. The are many perspectives on the energy processes and it depends on the focus of some system. For example I will take chong mai because it is the main reason for discussion here. If you take too books and they’re both using name chong mai it doesn’t mean that they are talking about the same thing. You should take in your consideration authors background, profession, etc. And on the other hand if one author uses name zhong mai, another chong mai and third middle mai or centar channel they may be talking about the same thing It is not the label that matters it is the function and principle that matters and underlying experience author is trying to explain.

 

I have found Tao & Longevity and read the part where Master Nan explains the channels. He said that he hasn’t found central channel in old Chinese books but that there is one part in Yellow emperors book that it addresses to Central Channel but there is called Chong Mai and that he found parallel in Tibetan channel system Middle Mai with its parts Right Mai and Left Mai. I have also found in one of Ken Kohen audiobooks Taoist version of alternate nose breathing where he describes central channel exactly as Master Nan described it in his great book. Both description of that channel are exactly the same as Indian yoga description of Shushumna, Ida and Pingala.

 

After long period of inner work with my teacher we firstly opened chakras and than after a while we worked at rising kundalini. I also had vision of columns and spirals. Isn’t that interesting I searched for your recommendations if practice and they are very very similar to what yoga teaches to open shushumna (central chakra channel). So my bold conclusion here is that shushumna (central channel in yoga) is actually the same thing as Zhong Mai (central channel in Taoism). That the only difference between them are slightly different descriptions (I think due to different uses of words in their systems) but the end experience and method are overlappin, the same consequences if they are played with AND they both are alchemical approaches (kundalini tantra/yoga and alchemical qigong).

 

I really want to fully understand what you are saying so please correct me I didn’t understand any of your points.

 

Thank you again for your very kind answers.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thank you again snowmonkey for your answer and recommended reading and yes you have left me speechless

 

I think that I have understood what you are saying in total but please let me just recapitulate your posts with my words to see if we are on the same page, to prevent any confusion and distortion of words. Please in few word just correct me if I’m mistaken at any point.

 

You're welcome,

 

these things are always breadcrumbs, through further practice and study we can see where they lead

 

You should not believe everything you read or hear just for the reason the author is Chinese. The are many perspectives on the energy processes and it depends on the focus of some system.

 

Well it isn't solely a 'Chinese thing'. I don't think anyone has said it better than Buddha, before or after. The first time I read the Kalama Sutta was in Doc Morris first book, have no idea about translations of such a text, but heres his version.

 

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard (or read) it.

Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.

Do not believe in anything because it is spoken and rumored by many.

Do not believe in anything simply because it is written in your religious books.

Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.

but After observation and analysis, when you find anything that agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

 

Says it all really.

 

But the second part from you I quoted above is important. The system and the view of that system.

 

It is easy to dismiss your own experience or cause yourself problems through expectation because of what you read or hear about and how it is 'mapped' or 'supposed to unfold according to A cultural system. I'm crap, nothing I do results in lava flames lapping up my sushumna

 

It is also easy to dismiss A cultural system because you experience doesn't make sense when compared to that system, so they must have it all wrong anyway despite lineages of hundreds if not thousands of years. They musta all been stupid

 

At the extremes above they sound silly, no? You have to respect the traditions for what they are, nothing more nothing less. But that is quite hard.

 

So Why does one system map part of the energy body, and another map something else? Context is important and helps you avoid confusion. While anyone will stand on the shoulders of others to cut workload and borrowing is all fair in love n cultivation. But surprisingly most Chinese doctors were more interested in medicine than spiritual alchemy.

 

For example I will take chong mai because it is the main reason for discussion here. If you take too books and they’re both using name chong mai it doesn’t mean that they are talking about the same thing. You should take in your consideration authors background, profession, etc. And on the other hand if one author uses name zhong mai, another chong mai and third middle mai or centar channel they may be talking about the same thing It is not the label that matters it is the function and principle that matters and underlying experience author is trying to explain.

 

Yes. Exactly. People assume a "term"'s appearance in a text means the person is talking about the same thing. Even in our own first language you will get debate and nuanced differences in meaning and understanding in subjects. Scientists who are top of their field and yet debate, argue or even bet with each other over the meaning or true understanding of their studies.

 

The false picture being painted is that a fully cohesive and coherent 'map' of Chinese energy exists. This is not true. Go all the way back to the oldest extant records and you will find variation of opinion and differences in thought. And this continues on throughout Chinese history.

 

Same is true in India, or Tibet. Then you have those or have done cross-cultural comparisons etc.

 

If you can appreciate WHO the author is, then you have a better appreciation for the possible perspective taken, and why they view things that way. What are THEY trying to uncover or look at?

 

I have found Tao & Longevity and read the part where Master Nan explains the channels.

 

It's a fantastic book. And it was the main way I viewed all this confusion until my more recent discoveries. I mention it because I still think it is worth reading, and I think having several informed opinions is always better than only one. Because at the end of the day you want to working on forming your OWN informed opinion.

 

He said that he hasn’t found central channel in old Chinese books but that there is one part in Yellow emperors book that it addresses to Central Channel but there is called Chong Mai and that he found parallel in Tibetan channel system Middle Mai with its parts Right Mai and Left Mai.

 

I love the work of the late venerable Master Nan. He was a scholar and achieved much in actual cultivation. But there are historical documents that paint a different picture. And I think they are all valuable. The benefit of Master Nan's work is that he is drawing a picture that is easier to access. I trust his points over 'pop' qigong authors.

 

The 'three' qimai map of a central and a left and right channel is usually associated with Hindu or Buddhist practice. But there are variances of this map too that cause much confusion. This has to do with the location and placement of the cakras, the routes of the three channels themselves, as well as the relationship of the channels to the cakras.

 

It is easy to assume that the appearance of the 'zhongmai' or central channel is a later addition into China via Buddhism. But I think it would be incorrect to make such an assumption.

 

First we have Dr Yuen of the Jade Purity lineage of Daoism explaining about the evolution of the theory of qimai, and how the 'chongmai' was a variation or development from the earlier 'zhongmai'.

 

Secondly, we have Master Nan saying that the Daoist theory of qimai first emerged from Zhuang Zi. And it is also within Zhuang Zi that we have the first textual reference to the Daoist practice of Zuowang (sitting and forgetting). A primary method of cultivation. It is also in the Zhuang Zi that we find references to the 'taichong' (great thoroughfare), which according to some commentators is this column between Heaven and Earth, from which comes the qijing bamai, but most notably the chongmai, renmai, dumai. To quote again;

 

"Hence, the sages did not call them chong, du, and ren, but referred to them [collectively] as the grand thoroughfare. The name grand thoroughfare refers to the arising ascent of essence qi within the body and does not only mean the sea of blood."

 

My Kundalini teacher told me this column was the real sushumna, there is also the fine thread at the core. So is this not the central channel? And is this not a reference to it in an old and classic Daoist text that pre-dates Buddhism in China?

 

If we take the above quote, then it helps explain why there is no mention of "zhongmai", because it was referred to differently than 'central channel'. And the focus was not on the smaller aspect, but the larger picture and how the eight vessels opena nd unfold during cultivation practice.

 

I have also found in one of Ken Kohen audiobooks Taoist version of alternate nose breathing where he describes central channel exactly as Master Nan described it in his great book. Both description of that channel are exactly the same as Indian yoga description of Shushumna, Ida and Pingala.

 

AFAIK it's not a "Daoist" version of anything, it is simply yoga methods.

 

After long period of inner work with my teacher we firstly opened chakras and than after a while we worked at rising kundalini. I also had vision of columns and spirals. Isn’t that interesting I searched for your recommendations if practice and they are very very similar to what yoga teaches to open shushumna (central chakra channel). So my bold conclusion here is that shushumna (central channel in yoga) is actually the same thing as Zhong Mai (central channel in Taoism). That the only difference between them are slightly different descriptions (I think due to different uses of words in their systems) but the end experience and method are overlappin, the same consequences if they are played with AND they both are alchemical approaches (kundalini tantra/yoga and alchemical qigong).

 

I really want to fully understand what you are saying so please correct me I didn’t understand any of your points.

 

Thank you again for your very kind answers.

 

Check out 'Body of Light' by John Mann and Lar Short. There are problems with the book, but then the idea behind it is rather ambitious. It is a shame that the "Daoist" map represented is Chia's. Daoist maps vary more than Buddhist ones! At least that has been my experience.

 

All the best,

 

Ps apologies for spelling and typos, its late here. Time for practice and bed

Edited October 13, 2012 by snowmonki

[Shagrath]

Thank you endlessly for your effort and patience to bring me closer understanding of zhong mai I really appreciate it.

 

Edited November 5, 2012 by Shagrath