Craving

[XieJia]

Salutations to my Buddhist and Daoist Friends

and all seekers of the Path.

 

In Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta, the Tathagata mentioned the origin of suffering to 'Tanha' or 'Craving'. The Tathagata further divide them into three categories of;

 

Kama-tanha - Sense Craving

Bhava-tanha - Craving of Becoming

Vi-Bhava-tanha - Craving of Non-Becoming

 

Textually and conceptually, I can understand these concepts.

 

However in my practice;

sometimes the heart is full of them,

sometimes they disappears

sometimes they appears

sometimes I can't find them at all.

 

My observations are thus:

Craving is beyond our choices, they just happens.

The form of cravings is directly linked to what is being experiences in the moment.

They are conditioned wants that occur to pull us away from the current experiences.

The medicines for them is knowing them at the current moment -> wisdom comes to rid the mind of ignorances and hence the craving.

Ignorance is the sole cause of Craving.

 

I am eager to hear what are the observations that you guys made and what context does it impact your practices. And whether are there any remarks that one could 'point' for friends on the path in regarding this subject.

 

Thank you,

 

Mindfulness to all,

 

Xiejia

 

Edit Added: My observations could be wrong... but they are just my observations.

Edited October 10, 2012 by XieJia

[joeblast]

The tao reflects upon itself - much like different glints of light come from a diamond, are they a reflection of the diamond, or the viewer? I wont see the same glints from here as you will from there as it turns in the morning sun

[XieJia]

The tao reflects upon itself - much like different glints of light come from a diamond, are they a reflection of the diamond, or the viewer? I wont see the same glints from here as you will from there as it turns in the morning sun

 

A beautiful expression, Thank you Joe.

You didn't answer and answer my questions in the same statement.

 

As we continue to see the glints, it is also amazing to see how flawless the diamond can be.

If the viewer is the reflections of the world and the world is the reflections of the viewer.

The Tao reflects upon itself.

 

The dust is telling itself, what is there to dirty? What is there to cling on?

I'd still have the trouble and some fear of seeing where 'myself' would be?

 

Thanks again

Edited October 11, 2012 by XieJia

[joeblast]

/\

heh, what is dirty? what is the diamond, what is the sunlight?

 

what is the nature of all these phenomena?

 

"what an amazing concept...we are sitting here in something called a room - where is it...can we point to anything here that is "the room" - there is no such thing as a room," as Adyashanti said - as you get closer and closer to the object you can continually dissect into its constituent parts, yet by doing so you lose that which made it the whole, larger object in the first place.

 

so reduce, reduce, until at some point we're looking at googols of tiny vibrating bits of energy.

 

what the heck is that?

 

nothing of importance.

 

what is important?

 

the relationships thereof, created by the interactions. there is no mirror, and no dirt to settle upon it - what is there to crave? phenomena rise and fall, look objectively, react, or do not react, accordingly. understand the nature of things and the clouds are removed from the issue

[Jeff]

/\

...

the relationships thereof, created by the interactions. there is no mirror, and no dirt to settle upon it - what is there to crave? phenomena rise and fall, look objectively, react, or do not react, accordingly. understand the nature of things and the clouds are removed from the issue

 

Wise words.

 

[Jeff]

...

My observations are thus:

Craving is beyond our choices, they just happens.

The form of cravings is directly linked to what is being experiences in the moment.

They are conditioned wants that occur to pull us away from the current experiences.

The medicines for them is knowing them at the current moment -> wisdom comes to rid the mind of ignorances and hence the craving.

Ignorance is the sole cause of Craving.

...

 

Thank you for this interesting topic.

 

My observation has been slightly different. Cravings/desires (and resulting attachments) shape the perceived perception of the moment. Mind (with cravings) can easily overwhelm and define the moment (any good sexual fantasy can show you how easy it is to "ignore" what is happening around you).

 

If one is truly in the moment, there is no craving (they drop). Craving and attachment arise though associating with something in the past or projecting into the future.

 

Could you better describe what you mean by "rid the mind of ignorances"? It is a somewhat vague statement.

 

Thanks.

 

[XieJia]

Thank you Jeff, Thank you Joe

 

My observation has been slightly different. Cravings/desires (and resulting attachments) shape the perceived perception of the moment. Mind (with cravings) can easily overwhelm and define the moment (any good sexual fantasy can show you how easy it is to "ignore" what is happening around you).

If one is truly in the moment, there is no craving (they drop). Craving and attachment arise though associating with something in the past or projecting into the future.

Could you better describe what you mean by "rid the mind of ignorances"? It is a somewhat vague statement.

 

Interesting and acute observations;

 

by ridding of ignorances is that -> I meant

if the craving persists, they eventually drops either through the mind understanding or as you mentioned as 'they drop'.

sometimes a certain thoughts completely override the craving.

for example in the sexual fantasy case, one sees that the human body as undesirable such as full of old processed food being flesh, full of blood vessels, fluids, bones, muscles.

 

Joe,

there's still alternation of state of knowing and not knowing in within this skanda.

apparently it have yet realize that even in not-knowing, there is knowing.

one observation that I have made is that as one reduce and reduce, the more that the experience become whole.

 

My observation is when one is in fully in the moment, it is harder to find and investigate these cravings.

[Jeff]

 

by ridding of ignorances is that -> I meant

if the craving persists, they eventually drops either through the mind understanding or as you mentioned as 'they drop'.

sometimes a certain thoughts completely override the craving.

for example in the sexual fantasy case, one sees that the human body as undesirable such as full of old processed food being flesh, full of blood vessels, fluids, bones, muscles.

 

Does using a thought (like old processed food) truly stop a craving? Or, is it creating an aversion? An additional new "obstruction" to the flow? Can mind ever truly stop mind?

 

[XieJia]

Does using a thought (like old processed food) truly stop a craving? Or, is it creating an aversion? An additional new "obstruction" to the flow? Can mind ever truly stop mind?

 

 

Hi Jeff,

 

I understand what you meant by 'using' thoughts to override thoughts. Those never do any good, one end up adding more to craving.

While there are some thoughts that comes without one 'using' it.

So we can't really claim ownership on it.

 

Edited October 11, 2012 by XieJia

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff,

 

I understand what you meant by 'using' thoughts to override thoughts. Those never do any good, one end up adding more to craving.

While there are some thoughts that comes without one 'using' it.

So we can't really claim ownership on it.

 

 

So thoughts sometimes "just float by"? Your choice as to "engage" with them or not?

 

As an example... Seeing a women walk by and thinking "wow - is she beautiful"... Is that something that floats by?

 

Just trying to understand your point.

 

[joeblast]

Joe,

there's still alternation of state of knowing and not knowing in within this skanda.

apparently it have yet realize that even in not-knowing, there is knowing.

one observation that I have made is that as one reduce and reduce, the more that the experience become whole.

 

My observation is when one is in fully in the moment, it is harder to find and investigate these cravings.

Partly by the reduction we gain insight to the larger - not that it negates what the individual components are, but merely places them in context that can help avoid incorrect views as to the larger.

 

Thinking isnt "in the moment" but it is a byproduct of the root-core energy that manifests as thought-stream-energy. Easiest and simplest method to train is by placing awareness on the individual components of breath and their interactions (e.g. the physical mechanisms of breath) - by doing so you are creating the conditions for a calm, peaceful mind. A simple byproduct of the human mind is the rambling thought-stream-energy - but consider that our brains are neural networks built upon experience and habit - therefore manifestation of thought-stream-energy contains inertia behind it. Thus it takes time and focus to re-train. On some level what one is doing is retraining a path of least resistance (via focused awareness) that arrests the outflow of the root-core, preventing how much of that energy is available to manifest as thought-stream-energy. So below a certain threshold, the thoughts simply dont percolate - but its indeed a pretty low threshold, and only by focused awareness is that root-core energy diverted from where it will manifest as thought-stream. Thus when we do find ourselves off in thought while we should be meditating, we simply return to the breath, return to the path that has been outlined and proven to produce results, and not sit there fretting about why it was that we wound up thinking in the first place

 

We cannot really guarantee anything - but what we may do is influence the conditions by which something is more likely to manifest - just as quantum mechanics reduces to amplitudes of probabilities, such is the unfolding of existence. When the right conditions are present, then ripe for the manifestation of that which we strive to create the conditions for

[XieJia]

So thoughts sometimes "just float by"? Your choice as to "engage" with them or not?

 

As an example... Seeing a women walk by and thinking "wow - is she beautiful"... Is that something that floats by?

 

Just trying to understand your point.

 

 

Thank you Jeff,

In seeing form, the mind thinks that she is beautiful.

Looking further at the mind, what is beautiful? Sometimes the mind does not know that.

 

Sometimes the mind thinks of the eyes, the nose, the mouth and other body parts as beautiful.

The thoughts that I was referring to, was the thought that derive from seeing into these individual components.

There's nothing beautiful about the eyes,

There's nothing beautiful about the nose,

There's nothing beautiful about the mouth,

There's nothing beautiful about the body parts.

These are also the thoughts that I am referring to.

 

The thoughts floats by according to the conditions much as to what Joe mentioned.

So I guess we can't really claim ownership to these thoughts.

But still without these thoughts occurring,

I am unsure why the mind likes to create a meta-states other than the state that itself is in to induce craving.

[XieJia]

Partly by the reduction we gain insight to the larger - not that it negates what the individual components are, but merely places them in context that can help avoid incorrect views as to the larger.

 

Thinking isnt "in the moment" but it is a byproduct of the root-core energy that manifests as thought-stream-energy. Easiest and simplest method to train is by placing awareness on the individual components of breath and their interactions (e.g. the physical mechanisms of breath) - by doing so you are creating the conditions for a calm, peaceful mind. A simple byproduct of the human mind is the rambling thought-stream-energy - but consider that our brains are neural networks built upon experience and habit - therefore manifestation of thought-stream-energy contains inertia behind it. Thus it takes time and focus to re-train. On some level what one is doing is retraining a path of least resistance (via focused awareness) that arrests the outflow of the root-core, preventing how much of that energy is available to manifest as thought-stream-energy. So below a certain threshold, the thoughts simply dont percolate - but its indeed a pretty low threshold, and only by focused awareness is that root-core energy diverted from where it will manifest as thought-stream. Thus when we do find ourselves off in thought while we should be meditating, we simply return to the breath, return to the path that has been outlined and proven to produce results, and not sit there fretting about why it was that we wound up thinking in the first place

 

We cannot really guarantee anything - but what we may do is influence the conditions by which something is more likely to manifest - just as quantum mechanics reduces to amplitudes of probabilities, such is the unfolding of existence. When the right conditions are present, then ripe for the manifestation of that which we strive to create the conditions for

 

Hello Joe,

 

Thank you for sharing,

I don't not know whether this goes along the same lines;

when the mind is thinking, it is not flowing.

 

I like what you said about how each of us influence our own conditions.

In meditations, it is one thing.

I am particularly interested in how one can use our daily life itself as a meditation.

Sometimes the awareness is focused, sometimes it is unfocused.

Do awareness have any conditions?

[Jeff]

Thank you Jeff,

In seeing form, the mind thinks that she is beautiful.

Looking further at the mind, what is beautiful? Sometimes the mind does not know that.

 

Sometimes the mind thinks of the eyes, the nose, the mouth and other body parts as beautiful.

The thoughts that I was referring to, was the thought that derive from seeing into these individual components.

There's nothing beautiful about the eyes,

There's nothing beautiful about the nose,

There's nothing beautiful about the mouth,

There's nothing beautiful about the body parts.

These are also the thoughts that I am referring to.

 

The thoughts floats by according to the conditions much as to what Joe mentioned.

So I guess we can't really claim ownership to these thoughts.

But still without these thoughts occurring,

I am unsure why the mind likes to create a meta-states other than the state that itself is in to induce craving.

 

Whether seeing eyes, nose or body parts as beautiful or not beautiful, one is making a judgement. Making a judgment, one is basing it on past conditioning and thus no longer in the moment (primordial state). Do you see it differently?

 

On meta-states... Two questions... Are you separate from mind? What happens to mind in the base/primordial state?

 

[XieJia]

Thank you again Jeff

 

I am not sure what we can call judging.

 

In seeing things as beautiful -> I can see the judging.

In seeing things as not beautiful -> I can also see the judging.

 

In seeing nothing beautiful in beautiful things -> Is this judging?

In seeing nothing not beautiful in not beautiful things -> Is this judging?

 

I can't be certain, I could be wrong.

 

On the mind,

The mind is not separated, and that base/primordial state is the mind.

It is the judging that separates.

[Jeff]

Thank you again Jeff

 

I am not sure what we can call judging.

 

In seeing things as beautiful -> I can see the judging.

In seeing things as not beautiful -> I can also see the judging.

 

In seeing nothing beautiful in beautiful things -> Is this judging?

In seeing nothing not beautiful in not beautiful things -> Is this judging?

 

I can't be certain, I could be wrong.

 

On the mind,

The mind is not separated, and that base/primordial state is the mind.

It is the judging that separates.

 

Thank you for the discussion and your very wise words.

 

In seeing nothing beautiful in beautiful things -> Is this judging?

In seeing nothing not beautiful in not beautiful things -> Is this judging?

 

How can one describe something as beautiful (or not beautiful), but not see anything beautiful (or not beautiful) in it? Has not the definition itself defined a judgement?

 

[XieJia]

 

How can one describe something as beautiful (or not beautiful), but not see anything beautiful (or not beautiful) in it? Has not the definition itself defined a judgement?

 

I am not so sure but I do think that;

 

In seeing nothing beautiful in what was previously defined as beautiful.

In seeing nothing not beautiful in what was previously defined as not beautiful.

 

Could we call this un-judging or is it another judgement?

Is it like noticing that your hot tea went cold?

 

If seeing something beautiful and we let that be, would we continue to see that thing as beautiful?

If seeing something not beautiful and we let that be, would we continue to see that thing as not-beautiful?

 

If judgement is made, what makes it continues to be so?

If it doesn't continue so, was the judgement really made? for the mind is not judging.

If it does continue so, the mind is judging so was the judgement made?

 

Is the judgement empty? and is judging really judgement or vice versa?

 

My apologies, may sounds like wordplays

[Jeff]

I am not so sure but I do think that;

In seeing nothing beautiful in what was previously defined as beautiful.

In seeing nothing not beautiful in what was previously defined as not beautiful.

Could we call this un-judging or is it another judgement?

Is it like noticing that your hot tea went cold?

If seeing something beautiful and we let that be, would we continue to see that thing as beautiful?

If seeing something not beautiful and we let that be, would we continue to see that thing as not-beautiful?

If judgement is made, what makes it continues to be so?

If it doesn't continue so, was the judgement really made? for the mind is not judging.

If it does continue so, the mind is judging so was the judgement made?

Is the judgement empty? and is judging really judgement or vice versa?

My apologies, may sounds like wordplays

 

We are definitely deep in word play, that is part of the fun. I like your questions because they dive into the heart of the issue...

 

When hot tea goes cold... One has made a judgement that is so, and we now have duality on the state of the tea. Do you prefer hot tea to cold? Do you drink both equally, or does one become "attached" to the definition of hot tea?

 

Judgement being empty (or not) would seem to be dependent on whether there is attachment to the choice (or not).

 

Edited October 12, 2012 by Jeff

[XieJia]

We are definitely deep in word play, that is part of the fun. I like your questions because they dive into the heart of the issue...

 

When hot tea goes cold... One has made a judgement that is so, and we now have duality on the state of the tea. Do you prefer hot tea to cold? Do you drink both equally, or does one become "attached" to the definition of hot tea?

 

Judgement being empty (or not) would seem to be dependent on whether there is attachment to the choice (or not).

 

 

Thanks for pointing it out Jeff.

 

The fact is, it is now a cold tea.

 

Damnit! Ahh! now!

Where is that girl again?

 

Further on, in this moment. What is Attachment?

Forgive me for abuse of present tenses.

 

What is attaching? What is the nature of attachment?

Is that attachment to the choices made; happening right now.

If so, when is the attachment really occurring?

What choice do one have at this moment?

 

Whether craving for sense , craving for becoming, craving for not-becoming.

What was the choices made, what is the choice right now?

 

I remembered the Beautiful lady but I can't remember her face.

I remembered the not-so Beautiful lady but I can't remember her face.

So what am I remembering?

[Jeff]

Thanks for pointing it out Jeff.

The fact is, it is now a cold tea.

Damnit! Ahh! now!

Where is that girl again?

Further on, in this moment. What is Attachment?

Forgive me for abuse of present tenses.

What is attaching? What is the nature of attachment?

Is that attachment to the choices made; happening right now.

If so, when is the attachment really occurring?

What choice do one have at this moment?

Whether craving for sense , craving for becoming, craving for not-becoming.

What was the choices made, what is the choice right now?

I remembered the Beautiful lady but I can't remember her face.

I remembered the not-so Beautiful lady but I can't remember her face.

So what am I remembering?

 

Sorry to have made your tea cold... You are too young to choose tea over beautiful women anyways...

 

You have brought up quite a bit to discuss. My one concern is that since we are from different cultures and traditions, we may associate different meanings to some of the words.

 

So for a little clarification... When one is angry, do you consider it a choice? I would consider it an automated response (based on previous memory/conditioning).

 

[XieJia]

Thank you Jeff,

 

Sometimes I do like my tea served cold in this kind of climate.

And I'd admit that in many case I would choose beautiful women over tea.

It's quite clear as an example.

 

If we associates words with meanings, we are deem to associates different meanings to words.

However I am positive that each of us will come to an understanding accordingly to what I have to face or resolve.

 

I'd agree that anger is a reflex, however I do see that there's also "Hobson's Choice" which can be found.

 

Take Care Jeff,

Happy Weekend to you and family.

[Jeff]

 

However I am positive that each of us will come to an understanding accordingly to what I have to face or resolve.

I'd agree that anger is a reflex, however I do see that there's also "Hobson's Choice" which can be found.

 

 

Thank you. Your "Hobson's Choice" point is a very good one. With something like anger (or attachments), seeing that it is a Hobson's choice is a huge step toward being in the moment. Once seen, then the choice can be made. After becoming comfortable with the choice, do you notice that the anger seems to never even really present itself anymore?

 

Best also to you and your family.

 

[XieJia]

 

[Stosh]

Thanks for pointing it out Jeff.

 

The fact is, it is now a cold tea.

 

Damnit! Ahh! now!

Where is that girl again?

 

Further on, in this moment. What is Attachment?

Forgive me for abuse of present tenses.

 

What is attaching? What is the nature of attachment?

Is that attachment to the choices made; happening right now.

If so, when is the attachment really occurring?

What choice do one have at this moment?

 

Whether craving for sense , craving for becoming, craving for not-becoming.

What was the choices made, what is the choice right now?

 

I remembered the Beautiful lady but I can't remember her face.

I remembered the not-so Beautiful lady but I can't remember her face.

So what am I remembering?

 

I dont think all of our motivations and associations are present in our 'aware perspective'

That huge databank operates on its own , tosses us out final products , like a calculator

which does its thing ,and spits out a result.

The hotness value of the lady gets calculated but when you assess coldly and apart from automatic

processing the assigned meaning isnt there.

Maybe she really isnt all that hot to you , but ,you can still assess whether others would think so.

Id agree , it can seem rather odd that when looking coldly at proportions etc ... all of a sudden

you dont really know WHAT THE HECK SHE LOOKS LIKE!

I think we are primed to answer what I call the 'ultimate question', which is , "What do I do now?"

That processing factory we dont really know well , sends us directives , to that end.

Its just as much part of us as the part of us that observes subjectively , and in normal perspective

the two minds blend ,,but its possible to partition them.

The question is whether thats an expedient thing to do or not.

Ifg a person was tortured by the dictates of their unconscious mind , it may behoove them to try to

pry the two minds apart , whereas in a person at peace , thee two minds may have been working together

nicely and long enough , that there is no reason to divide them.

[XieJia]

Thank you Stosh,

 

The lady was use as a subject matter; one of the things that we remembered was that

we made a choice in liking or disliking something, even when the apparent reasons for that liking or disliking

disappears.

We'd still cling to our likes or dislikes.

 

I like your comment about the minds, the minds maybe functioning all right all along.

Even their composition or decomposition is to their nature isn't it?

 

Wish you a nice weekend,

XJ