Afterlife exists says top brain surgeon

[Apech]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9597345/Afterlife-exists-says-top-brain-surgeon.html

 

just thought it was interesting.

[Veritas]

In other news the sky is blue, water is wet, and peaches are fuzzy!

[Tom Lin]

And just because the top brain surgeon makes this statement pertaining to the afterlife it makes headline news ha ha ha ha. Screw the brain surgeon (pun intended).

[Jetsun]

How does he explain the fact that people have different experiences of the afterlife though?

[doc benway]

Lot's of folks have memories of something after coma and near death experiences.

Is it heaven? Is it some altered state of consciousness informed and influenced by our conditioning and expectations?

I suspect more the latter, but that's just based on my own conditioning and expectations.

I think it's much more interesting to look at why there is an expectation of an afterlife and how that effects our daily life.

[Marblehead]

I think it's much more interesting to look at why there is an expectation of an afterlife and how that effects our daily life.

I would venture to say that it is because we are taught to believe in such things. I also think that it is this type of knowledge that we are supposed to unlearn so that we have more time to concern ourselves with our "real" life.

 

But then, I am an Atheist so take what I say to these concepts with a whole bunch of salt.

[GrandmasterP]

There's a full page article on this story in today's Daily Mail (UK national newspaper).

One or two talking about it here at work.

Never does any harm towards raising awareness.

[Creation]

It's sad that this fellow will be labeled delusional by his esteemed colleagues. A glance at the comments on the article indicates the refusal to even consider the possibility of the afterlife of those who consider themselves "logical", "scientific", etc.

 

Lot's of folks have memories of something after coma and near death experiences.

Is it heaven? Is it some altered state of consciousness informed and influenced by our conditioning and expectations?

I suspect more the latter, but that's just based on my own conditioning and expectations.

I think it's much more interesting to look at why there is an expectation of an afterlife and how that effects our daily life.

Well, part of what is interesting about this case is that this fellow did not have an expectation about the afterlife. Did you notice how he said words like "angels" didn't even occur to him during the experience, but only when he was trying to write it down?

 

How does he explain the fact that people have different experiences of the afterlife though?

How does he explain how people have different experiences of life? The more I think about it, the more I think that idea that everyone experiences the same thing when they die must be an oversimplification.

[GrandmasterP]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2215969/Has-man-seen-heaven-As-brain-scientist-Eben-Alexander-thought-idea-life-absurd--fell-coma-flying-meadows-beautiful-guardian-angel.html

[GrandmasterP]

Quite a lot of people who have had Near Death Experiences (NDEs) report similar experiences to those that this chap describes.

I just got 6,280,000 results shown on Google from searching 'Near Death Experiences'

Then again there must be millions of others who have had NDEs who haven't had these experiences.

Makes you think though.

[Reed]

http://www.telegraph...in-surgeon.html

 

just thought it was interesting.

 

Yeah. I think the most interesting aspect for me was how personal experience can be more powerful than language/books etc to change a person's perspective.

 

However, looking at the Daily Mail article as well, even if he did have a genuine experience of higher beings etc it seems to me a bit of a leap to claim Christianity is true.

[gatito]

How does he explain the fact that people have different experiences of the afterlife though?

 

How do you explain the fact that people have different experiences of life?

[GrandmasterP]

Life is pretty much life [taking dead as the opposite] but everybody living it is different.

Amithabha Buddha is showing a new arrival round Pure Land.

Guy asks....

What's behind that big wall over there?

Amithabha Buddha replies.......

'Christians. They think they are the only ones here'

[Jetsun]

 

 

How do you explain the fact that people have different experiences of life?

 

I don't know, I'm still trying to work out what reality is. If you have an experience which feels real and has meaning is that just as real as a daily life experience?

 

I had an experience of interacting with a "spirit" when taking Ayahuasca which felt just as vivid, real and meaningful as an interaction with another human, the scientist may tell me it was a hallucination but if it influences my life and has meaning then maybe it is just as real as anything else.

 

People argue constantly about whether Jesus exited, but even if he did or not he has had more influence on the world than almost any human, so even if he didn't exist in the beginning he does now for all intents and purposed as he has been created by the collective consciousness, so if he actually lived isn't really very important.

 

But the problem is that paranoid schizophrenics also believe their mind hallucinations as being real, which is obviously not a good thing.

[Marblehead]

But the problem is that paranoid schizophrenics also believe their mind hallucinations as being real, which is obviously not a good thing.

I am glad you, and not I, said that. And I suggest that this is a very important concept to consider.

 

But then, I wouldn't want to trivialize brain-thoughts because they too are real - but a different category from the manifest universe.

[Jetsun]

 

I am glad you, and not I, said that. And I suggest that this is a very important concept to consider.

 

But then, I wouldn't want to trivialize brain-thoughts because they too are real - but a different category from the manifest universe.

 

But even in the case of something like schizophrenia the reality and meaning of that condition is largely culturally bound, in places like Nigeria and India it is viewed through a different reality lense and if you examine the public World Health Organisation statistics peoples recovery rates are two or three times the rate and speed in those countries compared to places like the US and the UK. In our countries you are told you are sick and told you are mentally ill so you suffer for a long time, but in other countries you are respected as going through a spiritual crisis or shamanic initiation so you recover a lot quicker. So what is the reality of schizophrenia?

[Marblehead]

I am lacking of knowledge regarding what you have said but it sounds valid to me.

 

So what is the reality of schizophrenia?

That is the question, isn't it? No, I do not have any answers. But I will suggest that in the mind of the experiencer their illusions and delusions are just as real as the manifest universe. Why? It could be a physical problem or it might have been a traymatic experience or perhaps something else. (Perhaps even an "enlightening experience" could be the cause?)

 

I know that here in the States the medical profession makes a lot of money treating these symtoms.

[Jetsun]

Yeah I kind of went off on one sorry, but what I was trying to say is that when you really examine what reality is things become very blurred and it is very difficult to say anything about it with any sort of confidence.

[Ya Mu]

Quite a lot of people who have had Near Death Experiences (NDEs) report similar experiences to those that this chap describes.

...

These type of descriptions seem to have commonality.

I have had more than one NDE and they had some of these common descriptions but also different. I think the research done by Michael Newton can't be looked at as mere religious or pre-conceived superstition; in fact it appears to be absolutely consistent. Some of what people describe in that book is the same as what I experienced (before I had ever read or heard anything about such [ and I certainly did not have religious or otherwise pre-conceived ideas about it]).

http://www.amazon.com/Destiny-Souls-Studies-Between-Lives/dp/1567184995/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350043088&sr=8-1&keywords=destiny+of+souls

[Marblehead]

Yeah I kind of went off on one sorry, but what I was trying to say is that when you really examine what reality is things become very blurred and it is very difficult to say anything about it with any sort of confidence.

Totally agree. And I think it is this that was the driving force behind my labelling myself an Atheist and a Materialist. If my five (yes, only five) senses can acknowledge it then it exists. Everything else is questionable.

 

(Hehehe. No, it's not a boring life. It is filled with lots of excitement. If it is water jump in and go for a swim!)

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. Look at Ya Mu trying to get us back on topic!

[doc benway]

Well, part of what is interesting about this case is that this fellow did not have an expectation about the afterlife.

 

 

How certain are you of this?

We have many expectations about things that are deeply rooted in us and mostly beyond everyday conscious awareness. Our conditioning is pervasive and can be traced through generations that have preceded us. In fact, we are our conditioning to a large degree.

Personally, I would not be so quick to believe that statement.

More likely, he was not aware of his expectations and conditioning, IMO.

 

Edited to add a quote from his article, there is no expectation here?

The bolding is mine.

 

"Although I considered myself a faithful Christian, I was so more in name than in actual belief. I didn’t begrudge those who wanted to believe that Jesus was more than simply a good man who had suffered at the hands of the world. I sympathized deeply with those who wanted to believe that there was a God somewhere out there who loved us unconditionally. In fact, I envied such people the security that those beliefs no doubt provided. But as a scientist, I simply knew better than to believe them myself."

Edited October 13, 2012 by steve

[Taomeow]

All shamanic traditions, which is to say all human traditions before institutionalized religions and specialized sciences, had access to the spirit world by methods that varied from culture to culture but typically included ceremonial use of the sacred plants, severe quests which put one on the border between life and death, sensory deprivation settings or sensory flooding ceremonies -- i.e. assorted methods whereby the habitual "default" state of consciousness can be temporarily suspended and other perceptive abilities activated, the uncommon non-business-as-usual ones which are otherwise blocked and shut down for purposes of "normal" everyday functioning. Which is why not "some" but "all" people experienced contacts with the worlds beyond this one. Which is why afterlife was not a hypothesis, it was first hand knowledge. We are the ones left guessing, but it has never been this way until maybe a few hundred to a couple thousand years ago (depending on who you ask). The "no afterlife" hypothesis was invented some 150 years ago and given the status of a "scientific fact" on the basis of -- nothing at all.

[flowing hands]

I can tell of a NDE I had when I was a novice shaman. I was sleeping in my parents house in the early morning. I suddenly awoke completely frozen unable to move a muscle. I was being attacked by a maleveovalent spirit and it intended to kill me. It was early light and as the realisation that I was frozen stiff by its power and unable to defend myself I saw my spirit half come out of my body and left arm (yin) apply the 'fa' which drove the spirit away. My spirit moved back into my body and I could then move. The incredible thing was seing the spirit form of my own arm and body outside of the physical arm. I did not control my own spirit, but it came out as a last resort to defend the physical body. Which leads to many questions about the spirit and concious control and union of both mind, body and spirit. Which controls which?

[Fū Yue]

As far as we can see in observable, everyday reality, the universe continues on. The galaxies keep spinning and even when they collide with each other the process continues unimpeded. Even with black holes sucking up space/time all over the place, the process continues unimpeded. What makes humans these days think that the process of living will not continue on just because the transient elements in their body will eventually take on a different form? What makes the process of living any different from consciousness?

 

Are humans greater than the milky way, which will no doubt end even as the universe continues on, not missing a single step? I don't think so, we're made of the same materials and are subject to the same laws - an object at rest will stay at rest until acted on by an unbalanced force. An object in motion will stay in motion until acted on by an unbalanced force. Why would consciousness be exempt from these laws? Isn't it really the same? In fact, I would go so far as to say that consciousness is the balance between motion and stillness - weightlessness. 'Emptiness'. When we are oriented between motion and stillness, we are 'aware' (of the distance between the two poles), when we become too still, we are 'unconscious', when we are moving too fast, we are 'unconscious'..

 

In fact, I think that the idea that the objects around us are separate from our consciousness of them - where is the proof for that idea? People say, well obviously I cant lift that rock over there just with my 'mind'. Obviously you can't, as you are now. If you're moving at the same speed as all of the things around you, obviously you wouldn't have enough excess force to alter the trajectory of those things. What happens when things stop moving at the same speed as all the other things around them? Black holes, gravity wells. What happens when things start moving faster than all the other things around them? New galaxies are born. A simplification, yes, but ultimately this is the basis of all cultivation... basically, it's just life. Nothing mystical about it. All of our 'human ideas' are just perversions of the galactic processes.

 

So why do we experience linear time then? Because we are 'in orbit' with the singularity caused by our birth - our death, because all galaxies will eventually lose momentum and with that, become unbalanced. When something in this universe becomes unbalanced, it will inevitably regain balance. At the heart of a universe, a black hole, at the heart of a black hole, a universe. Perpetual motion.

 

Anyway, tangent complete. Here's a smiley for anyone who made it this far, lol.