How many people practice Taoism to gain supernatural powers?

[Stosh]

I want to answer! With opinions derived from some experiences but also contemplation (which is troublesome for several reasons)

- Chi is not a 'does/doesn't exist' proposition. It's like 'does electricity exist'? If you've never experienced it, you'd say no. If you have, you'd say 'yes'.

- Spirits are a tricky subject. I don't think I've met any so far, except the ones inhabiting people and animals. I don't really want to meet any, except the ones inhabiting people and animals.

- I'm (attempting to) practice the undoing of belief (so maybe I'm not very helpful) in favor of the known

- I practice 'emptiness meditation', 'mindfulness', some amount of twicking around with thoughts, yoga, pilates, a bit of 'chi-play' when I feel like it (usually when scared or something or I have a bad feeling about something - which could point to it being something else, perhaps a way of 'self-calming' as those psychologists would say. A game of 'pretend' - I'm using methods I found in that big pink chi-gong book)

- I've written quite often about experiences on TTB's but I'm often reluctant to share because it sounds stupid, nuts, too weird, childish (pick one).

You dont come across as shy

Are you sure you are?

Stosh

[Birch]

You dont come across as shy

Are you sure you are?

Stosh

 

This is a forum dude:-)

[idiot_stimpy]

My problem is that I'm not going to surrender. (But yes, we are indeed subject to the indifference of the universe.)

 

 

 

Under heaven nothing is more soft and yielding than water.

Yet for attacking the solid and strong, nothing is better;

It has no equal.

The weak can overcome the strong;

The supple can overcome the stiff.

Under heaven, everyone knows this,

Yet no one puts it into practice.

Therefore the sage says:

He who takes on the humiliation of the people

is fit to rule them.

He who takes upon himself the country’s disasters deserves

to be king of the universe.

 

The truth often sounds paradoxical.

[Stosh]

Thats true ,

but that also makes all of us somewhat anonymous and dispassionate

Its not like none else here has never been-spoken nuts stupid childish weird

stuff. So acting like we havent is false

Its up to you though

Put it this way...

I always considered myself to be rather quiet and easy going

in some ways thats true , but Ive had several folks laugh in my face

at the idea.

Stosh

[Mokona]

-K-

 

Would you mind sharing those experiences with my via PM? I won't pry if it is too personal.

[Cat Pillar]

You Sir, are at the same place on your path (in your life) that Albert Camus was when he began formulating his theory of the absurdity of human life. (Yes, he concludes that life is still worth living.)

 

Interesting. I read "The Stranger" when I was in school...didn't really understand it very well back then, maybe it would be fun to revisit.

 

Right now I'm avoiding putting value judgments on life. Is it worth living? Is it not worth living? What is "worth"?

 

Life is. Of that much I am certain. I am certain of little else, and starting to enjoy it.

 

There's a certain freedom in uncertainty.

[Marblehead]

Interesting. I read "The Stranger" when I was in school...didn't really understand it very well back then, maybe it would be fun to revisit.

 

Right now I'm avoiding putting value judgments on life. Is it worth living? Is it not worth living? What is "worth"?

 

Life is. Of that much I am certain. I am certain of little else, and starting to enjoy it.

 

There's a certain freedom in uncertainty.

Yes, life is full of uncertainties. All we can do is the best we can do. The processes of the universe will deal with the rest (and this may not be in "our" best interest).

 

Yeah, I just finished "The Myth Of Sisyphus" but I will have to go back and read it again. I'm reading "The Plague" now and if I remember correctly it is much lighter reading than either "The Stranger" or "The Myth Of Sisyphus".

 

I think you are right in not putting value judgements on life. Yes, most of us want to preserve it, especially our own, but getting all wrapped up in thinking about it and creating worries only takes away from the potential we have for being happy. I used that word "happy" intentionally because that is the thrust of Camus' thoughts, I think, living a happy life.

[Birch]

-K-

 

Would you mind sharing those experiences with my via PM? I won't pry if it is too personal.

 

I don't mind but I don't know how useful you'd find any of them:-) What I'd say would be 'more personal' would be other stuff, like my experiences with my family or work or something. Could any of my 'stranger' 'experiences' be related to or be undermined by those other experiences? I'd say 'possible' and that'd be the main issue in sharing them.

[Birch]

Thats true ,

but that also makes all of us somewhat anonymous and dispassionate

Its not like none else here has never been-spoken nuts stupid childish weird

stuff. So acting like we havent is false

Its up to you though

Put it this way...

I always considered myself to be rather quiet and easy going

in some ways thats true , but Ive had several folks laugh in my face

at the idea.

Stosh

 

I'm under the impression I do and say and share weird and childish things all the time on here:-). I do link it to being 'anonymous' (I care quite some that if my weird and childish got 'out there' I wouldn't be able to make a living.) Or that by admitting to weird and childish I may not otherwise be taken seriously when it comes to other things.

[idiot_stimpy]

When nothing is wanted, can one see the gateless gate

[Cat Pillar]

I'm under the impression I do and say and share weird and childish things all the time on here:-). I do link it to being 'anonymous' (I care quite some that if my weird and childish got 'out there' I wouldn't be able to make a living.) Or that by admitting to weird and childish I may not otherwise be taken seriously when it comes to other things.

 

I feel the same way much of the time. Except I do not have many experiences that would be classed as out of the ordinary...I am simply weird and childish by nature. I'm quite certain I would be a pariah if I didn't sanitize the information I present to others. I'm less concerned with censorship on this forum, but there are things I will never say or reveal to anyone. It would not be advantageous to either party, so why bother?

 

That's a big reason why my participation in the forums is pretty limited, and my posts are often just fluff.

 

I have found lately that it is much simpler to remain quiet, and let the mind deal with itself. There really isn't anything anyone can do to help me through this part of my path anyways - and that shouldn't be taken negatively, it's only a recognition that ultimately I must come to truth on my own.

 

Guides and sign posts are helpful to a point (and I fully intend on utilizing Michael Lomax as a guide into the world of Taoist energy medicine), but there are points in every journey where one must make their own decisions and find their own way.

[doc benway]

 

What I do know though is mainstream spiritual practices offer nothing of meaning or value to people who pursue them.

 

The best anyone can hope for is achieving a state where they are anesthetized to loss, pain, disease, and death.

Thanks for the reply MPG.

I genuinely feel for your suffering.

I doubt anything I say is of much value - so many words.... but sometimes I can't help myself!

 

It really can be beautiful to be alive.

 

I think the greatest supernatural power that exists is the power to see our daily lives with fresh eyes every moment and to appreciate the utter magnificence and infinite potential that surrounds us at all times. And yes, I have come to see my Daoist practices as an aid to cultivating that power.

 

Even things like pain, illness, and loss provide opportunities for learning and growth and are critical to our development.

They are unpleasant experiences but real change is always difficult, especially the ultimate experience of change - death.

Death is the elegant solution to the pain of living, it allows us to go on for a while then let it all go, and then come again - fresh and clean and completely ready for another round. And each round is so incredibly unique and different. And we don't have to be burdened with the previous rounds. So much better than living forever!

 

In fact, after 8 years of practicing Daoist meditation, it's my opinion that this is basically the fundamental nature of the method. To open our eyes (and all other senses, including some that aren't too familiar without specialized training) to what is always already here inside and around us. It's a way of enhancing our sensitivity and awareness to what is. People take many of the writings way too literally. It's due to a lack of direct instruction/transmission, a lack of understanding of the language and conventions of documentation, and the human desire to always want to "become" something that one is not. This to me is what seems to be the major stumbling block between man and Dao, the antithesis to Wu Wei - the need to become what one is not. Krishnamurti discusses this beautifully.

 

It's all already here.

No need to yearn after something other.

We just need to get out of our own way.

 

And then again, I just might be totally misguided and utterly wrong!

 

 

It certainly wouldn't be the first time and likely won't be the last.

Best wishes my friend.

[Marblehead]

When nothing is wanted, can one see the gateless gate

Ha! One can see many new truths when all desires have been satisfied in whatever manner they were satisfied.

[Stosh]

I'm under the impression I do and say and share weird and childish things all the time on here:-). I do link it to being 'anonymous' (I care quite some that if my weird and childish got 'out there' I wouldn't be able to make a living.) Or that by admitting to weird and childish I may not otherwise be taken seriously when it comes to other things.

Oh , Ok , about the 'making a living thing'

Its fine if I 'lay it all out there' , but you arent as free to play like that

Thats cool.

Stosh

[GrandmasterP]

Good point MH. It's maybe easier to put distractions to one side after we have 'done them to death' That was certainly Osho's approach. Maybe it didn't work for everyone but it sure was a whole lot of fun.

On topic if someone really desires supernatural powers might that not be indicative of deeper psychological issues or suppressed wants?

[Thunder_Gooch]

Steve,

 

It's not that I am suffering. I have a really great life.

 

Let me quote you a little something from Huston Smith:

 

Ch’i fascinated these Taoists. Blake registered their feelings precisely when

he exclaimed, “Energy is delight,” for energy is the life force and the

Taoists loved life. To be alive is good; to be more alive is better; to be

always alive is best.

 

-Huston Smith (The World's Religions)

 

 

Thanks for the reply MPG.

I genuinely feel for your suffering.

I doubt anything I say is of much value - so many words.... but sometimes I can't help myself!

 

It really can be beautiful to be alive.

 

I think the greatest supernatural power that exists is the power to see our daily lives with fresh eyes every moment and to appreciate the utter magnificence and infinite potential that surrounds us at all times. And yes, I have come to see my Daoist practices as an aid to cultivating that power.

 

Even things like pain, illness, and loss provide opportunities for learning and growth and are critical to our development.

They are unpleasant experiences but real change is always difficult, especially the ultimate experience of change - death.

Death is the elegant solution to the pain of living, it allows us to go on for a while then let it all go, and then come again - fresh and clean and completely ready for another round. And each round is so incredibly unique and different. And we don't have to be burdened with the previous rounds. So much better than living forever!

 

In fact, after 8 years of practicing Daoist meditation, it's my opinion that this is basically the fundamental nature of the method. To open our eyes (and all other senses, including some that aren't too familiar without specialized training) to what is always already here inside and around us. It's a way of enhancing our sensitivity and awareness to what is. People take many of the writings way too literally. It's due to a lack of direct instruction/transmission, a lack of understanding of the language and conventions of documentation, and the human desire to always want to "become" something that one is not. This to me is what seems to be the major stumbling block between man and Dao, the antithesis to Wu Wei - the need to become what one is not. Krishnamurti discusses this beautifully.

 

It's all already here.

No need to yearn after something other.

We just need to get out of our own way.

 

And then again, I just might be totally misguided and utterly wrong!

 

 

It certainly wouldn't be the first time and likely won't be the last.

Best wishes my friend.

Edited October 17, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Marblehead]

Good point MH. It's maybe easier to put distractions to one side after we have 'done them to death' That was certainly Osho's approach. Maybe it didn't work for everyone but it sure was a whole lot of fun.

On topic if someone really desires supernatural powers might that not be indicative of deeper psychological issues or suppressed wants?

Yeah, I have an unfair advantage in that I am old and have had many years already to live. And yes, I did live. Sometimes to an excess, I will admit. But not regrets even though I know there were times I could have done better for myself and others had I had more knowledge.

 

The only thing I know about Osho is what I read other people saying about him on forums. So he lived - that's good. So he participated in excess - I did too so I can't say much to that.

 

Yeah, back to topic and you gave me a hard one. To your question, my short answer would be "Yes". However, I don't want this response to sound negative or like I am talking down to those people.

 

I honestly believe that there are many with these wishes who want the power in order to better help others and to make the world a better place to live.

 

Of course, there are those who are selfish and want more than their environment has offered. It would be hard for me to knock that either.

 

And then there are those who wish for the additional power in order to get away from unacceptable conditions or even to get even with those who caused them harm in whatever way.

 

In my mind, it is better to understand our capacities and capabilities and take action in ways that we would have the most power. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. So we go forward with our strengths while protecting our weaknesses.

 

So although I would agree that many of these people who seek supernatural power have issues that they have otherwise been unable to deal with. Kinda' like the lonely child who creates a playmate of some sort. But I would suggest that the person's efforts would be better used if applied to logical actions that would get results.

[Birch]

Mr MH!

 

I agree with much of your above post - except the 'logic' part. I would like to suggest (conscious- sort of goes without saying) awareness instead of 'logic'. Are we talking about the same 'logic'? I just thought of that. Maybe we aren't.

 

I will give you an example which I discussed with someone else today. Let's say that I've been through 2 or 3 or 4 situations with different people where the 'dynamic' is pretty much the same if you look at it a bit more with a bit more awareness. In every single situation, prior to choosing it and while in the thick of it it has appeared that everyone's actions and choices were based on some kind of logic that belonged to each person. Results very similar in each case. I don't find that very logical.

[GreytoWhite]

I scoffed at the "supernatural" aspects of qigong practice until I actually saw the qi flowing around my body. I hadn't read anything about it, a friend just showed me some silk reeling and zhan zhuang. I think qi is just another something Western science hasn't taken apart, studied the smallest piece, and then rebuilt to see what it actually is.

[Marblehead]

Mr MH!

 

I agree with much of your above post - except the 'logic' part. I would like to suggest (conscious- sort of goes without saying) awareness instead of 'logic'. Are we talking about the same 'logic'? I just thought of that. Maybe we aren't.

Yes, I hesitated before selecting the word "logic" in the above post. I realized that the word is taken by many as limiting. (Yes, I believe in intuitional inspiration [no logic].) But my use of the word is not inconsistent with my overall philosophy.

[Stosh]

Mr MH!

 

I agree with much of your above post - except the 'logic' part. I would like to suggest (conscious- sort of goes without saying) awareness instead of 'logic'. Are we talking about the same 'logic'? I just thought of that. Maybe we aren't.

 

I will give you an example which I discussed with someone else today. Let's say that I've been through 2 or 3 or 4 situations with different people where the 'dynamic' is pretty much the same if you look at it a bit more with a bit more awareness. In every single situation, prior to choosing it and while in the thick of it it has appeared that everyone's actions and choices were based on some kind of logic that belonged to each person. Results very similar in each case. I don't find that very logical.

 

You put your finger on that exactly K

folks engage in certain dynamics that show up clearly, mostly from a removed perspective

and no they do not make much sense , much of the time

and when you do look with more awareness , your logic follows better data.

Rather than refuting logic as a means to an end , youve supported it.

With the wisdom youve already gained you know how the stuff is gonna play out if

you play the same cards reflexively.

Stosh

Edited October 18, 2012 by Stosh

[Birch]

You put your finger on that exactly K

folks engage in certain dynamics that show up clearly, mostly from a removed perspective

and no they do not make much sense , much of the time

and when you do look with more awareness , your logic follows better data.

Rather than refuting logic as a means to an end , youve supported it.

With the wisdom youve already gained you know how the stuff is gonna play out if

you play the same cards reflexively.

Stosh

 

Yeah yeah, ok. I was in the post to Mr MH referring to what I'd prefer to call 'linear' logic (the kind of stuff taught in philosophy classes, or maybe computer programming). And then giving an example of what I reckon is, if it can be called logic at all, is one of a pretty different type.

[Stosh]

I dont get this preference for intuition over wisdom gained of experience

Is it really so unpleasant to think of yourself as having gained wisdom?

No its not a supernatural power

it is real , you can rely on it , its really yours

not fantasy!

I suppose at some point the connections become unapparent

and then you might call it intuition if you like.

Personally I prefer to recognize the "drill"

been there, done that , seeen this game played already

It tends to make suggestions as to alternatives.

Besides , there are mind games people play (Berne)

and if you take it as lessons of experience rather than

some vague feeling , you can zero in , pay attention

and intentionally develop your perception

That can be very interesting.

Stosh

[Marblehead]

I think I'm not supposed to say anything at the moment but I am reading.

[Birch]

I dont get this preference for intuition over wisdom gained of experience

Is it really so unpleasant to think of yourself as having gained wisdom?

No its not a supernatural power

it is real , you can rely on it , its really yours

not fantasy!

I suppose at some point the connections become unapparent

and then you might call it intuition if you like.

Personally I prefer to recognize the "drill"

been there, done that , seeen this game played already

It tends to make suggestions as to alternatives.

Besides , there are mind games people play (Berne)

and if you take it as lessons of experience rather than

some vague feeling , you can zero in , pay attention

and intentionally develop your perception

That can be very interesting.

Stosh

 

I don't reckon I see it as a preference Stosh. Although I do figure if you can rely on intuition rather than prior experience (both require consciousness) you might have what I would see as an 'advantage' (as in you don't have to make the same mistakes and suffer from them over and over and over and over (getting this;-)?) again until you 'get it')

I'm aware there are at present at least a couple of diverging 'schools of thought' on intuition. Books are being written (I always ask myself 'why are we writing about this now?') One is of the idea that you can't have intuition as such because it's actually 'just' based on experience. The other one doesn't require experience as a prerequisite at all.

 

There's also 'other stuff' to discuss related to all this stuff but I'll leave it aside for now because of the experience problem.