Using Eastern spirituality to repress your individuality

[Aetherous]

That post was quite fucked, vortex. As we all know, religions have good and bad aspects. You focused on the absolute best Buddhist quote, and the absolute worst Christian ones. LOL!

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Apech]

It remains the case that even if you practice Guru Yoga as a Buddhist or follow Christ then any appeal to give up your individuality is a distortion. To put it in Buddhist terms your individuality is at its core your Buddha-nature and any prostrating before a guru is simply on the basis that this other being will help you reveal to yourself the true nature of your being. So if you find yourself on a path which seems to make you into a clone or makes you feel even more bad about yourself than when you started out you should question what you are doing and what you are being taught. In fact this is not an option you have to do this if you want to make progress on any path (IMO!),

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[thetaoiseasy]

How do you repress individuality, if do you not even know who you really are? To me, the joy and the core of cultivation is to find that answer.

Edited October 16, 2012 by thetaoiseasy

[Aetherous]

I'll give us a hint: you are a human being.

[gendao]

That post was quite fucked, vortex. As we all know, religions have good and bad aspects. You focused on the absolute best Buddhist quote, and the absolute worst Christian ones. LOL!

That's because I'm a rugged individualist who doesn't give a fvck! Case-in-point, duh!

 

As opposed to this:

So I wonder if the Eastern teachings have been corrupted in this way in order to keep people docile, to not stand out from the crowd and dare to be rebellious and break the rules which keep people in power, as the self and your individuality are the root of all evil aren't they?

So, individually rebelling against religious authority is, by contrast, culturally-acceptable here, right? How you like deez apples, then!

[Aetherous]

That's because I'm a rugged individualist who doesn't give a fvck! Case-in-point, duh!

 

Ah, now that is an answer I can relate to. Carry on, sir.

[3bob]

Actually the Buddha teaches that the meanings of the Noble Eight Fold Path is the "only way", and any path that does not include such meanings falls short; btw, perhaps the Buddhas "Hindu" based teachers in effect and thus in meaning drilled that into him as they helped him attain the "7 liberation"? Anyway, one might also ask do the teachings of Jesus (for example: The Sermon on the Mount) equate in meanings and thus in effect with the Noble Eight Fold Path.... ?

[Apech]

Actually the Buddha teaches that the meanings of the Noble Eight Fold Path is the "only way", and any path that does not include such meanings falls short; btw, perhaps the Buddhas "Hindu" based teachers in effect and thus in meaning drilled that into him as they helped him attain the "7 liberation"? Anyway, one might also ask do the teachings of Jesus (for example: The Sermon on the Mount) equate in meanings and thus in effect with the Noble Eight Fold Path.... ?

 

The test of whether any teaching is dharma or not is the Four Seals i.e.

1. Composite phenomena temporary

2. Phenomena contaminated by self are the cause of suffering

3. Unelaborated phenomena are empty

4. Nirvana is peace

 

if it teaches these its Dharma if it doesn't it isn't.

 

I don't recognise any of this in the 'sermon on the mount'.

[zanshin]

I think it's good for kids and adults to learn about many philosophies and religions. Definitely not just one though, in understanding the alternatives less likely to be seduced by dogma and the idea that some group has the right answers.

[C T]

The west, the east, the south and the north... sheep everywhere, as far as the eye can see.

 

The distillation of spiritual insights, regardless of tradition, necessarily leads to traversing paths where others fear to tread. In the east as well as the west, hermits and ascetics abound, leading secluded existences which transcends all boundaries of individualism and its counterpart.

 

Those who are not able to abandon the mundane world for obvious reasons can first begin to choose to practice abandonment in their minds. This leads to the end of craving and passion, which gives birth to the truly sane individual.

 

In the Discourse on Blessings (Maha Mangala Sutta) states clearly that one of life's true blessings is to have a mind 'properly directed' (attasammapanidhi). A mind that is always mindful? What does this encompass? Its easy to utter these words, yet, in real practical terms, it requires one to discover one's proper place in the world, decide on a proper aim, and find the right ways to achieve it. A happy and balanced individual is one who has a worthy aim in life, a clear course to follow, and a sound philosophy with which to navigate towards the attainment of that worthy aim.

 

"Exalted in mind & heedful,

a sage trains in sagacity's ways.

He has no sorrows, one who is Such,

calmed and ever-mindful." -- the Theragathas.

[GrandmasterP]

I'm sure there's a few in Brum ... sorry East Midlands ....

I'm sure there's a few in Brum ... sorry East Midlands ....

 

You got that right bro. That said we have a Kadampa sect Cafe run by their nuns across from another sect cafe run by competing nuns in Leicester.They come round local shops and businesses drumming up custom and leaving menus. Loads of fun when you get one on the premises and a competing nun from the other sect walks in.

Talk about House of Flying Daggers or 'High Noon' .

If looks could kill!

One day it'll kick off and we'll have a nun-rumble out in the street.

When it does.. my money will be on the Kadampas. Their nuns are chunkier and look like they do martial arts (or heavyweight boxing maybe).

The other sect's lot are a wan, pasty crew, look like they need a good dinner or something equally hot inside of 'em.

[寒月 Hanyue]

IMO, which is just that, my current opinion, the MESSAGE and the VEHICLE of that message should not be confused. And are more often than not.

 

What any individual WANTS to hear, and what they NEED to hear are not often the same thing, and how easy is to 'see' through those filters of ours and appreciate or realise that which will free us from our 'bonds', whatever you perceive those bonds to be.

 

And that is the other issue, what you feel or see your bonds to be are also seen through those filters and are they the same bonds that a high level Buddhist monk, Daoist priest, Mongolian Shaman, or any other fill in the blank denomination would percieve as that which is preventing your "freedom"?

 

East - West is an easy dichotomy to make, in fact it is VERY hard not to, but both yin&yang exist in East & West

 

Best,

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[RiverSnake]

I'll give us a hint: you are a human being.

 

Oh really??? So what happens when you die and shed this body? If you no longer have a body are you still a human being? Would you still identify yourself with the same things?

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[zanshin]

I like questions better than answers. You're not wrong til you think you have the right answers.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Jetsun]

Lots of good points to respond to. I think with the whole Guru yoga thing that may have been the best teaching for a particular people in a particular period of time, as mentioned there have been some strong individuals who came out of that environment like the crazy wisdom Guru's, but how relevant that method is today I am not so sure. Compared to agrarian farm folk of that time our lives are far more complicated and we are subject to far more negative influences from supposed authority figures that I don't see a great deal of good in bowing down to kiss the feet of another authority figure, as there is the issue of repeating the same patterns of giving your power and self away to others that was forced upon you aggressively as you were growing up.

 

The whole no self thing has been done to death on here but I think there may be an issue with translation of meaning of a lot of these areas, I find the more modern writers tend to not to write about no self in such ultimate terms rather they say things like the self exist but not in the way you think it does, or like Apech says the self exists in a conventional sense.

 

In terms of what your individuality really is the Sufi's say you have an "essence" and psychologists have called it your "real self". The Sufi's say as a child your essence is more active which is why a child is natural, but then it gets buried by your personality which cages it and encases it like a crust, so the first job in spiritual search is to correct the balance so that your essence becomes more active and your personality more passive and melt the crust a bit. I know Buddhism and others aim at relaxing the personality structures too but I see some Buddhists who end up more like lifeless Borg stripped of their humanity through this process rather more natural and human, so something is going wrong here with some people. Of course this is not what happens with everyone I just think it's worth examining the potential dangers.

 

I agree that if you have suffered what I'll lightly term 'negative influence / determinism' then the tendency may very well be to continue on with same within any subsequent 'belief-system'. It's like changing one pointy hat for a second pointy hat of a slightly different colour. With gongs on.

 

That is a good way of putting it, I don't want people to be adding extra fresh negative determinism onto their already existing load not just swapping one for another. The level of negative influence people suffer varies in degree but I don't meet many people who escape it, whether they realise it themselves is a different matter.

[Birch]

I very much enjoyed your post Jetsun. I also agree about the 'borgish' bhuddists. I propose that the reason for that result stems from an approach to practice in bhuddism (whether it is a 'misunderstood' practice is debatable) which pits 'ego' against itself. Whereas other systems approach it quite some differently (well, they don't technically IMO/IME, but once you've found that out it's usually too late It's like hiding the pill in the dogfood).

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts