Using Eastern spirituality to repress your individuality

[idiot_stimpy]

where is Vmarco when you need him.

[Aetherous]

I haven't read that maybe I'll look it up, so thanks for the referemce. I suppose you could say that the way the ego dies is by realising that it doesn't exist in the first place.

 

I totally don't like it when someone just points me to a book instead of explaining, so in case you don't check it out...something it said is that for a Buddha, this is their last life. Once their body dies, that's it, period. No more existence for that mind-stream, we could say. For other realized ones (like "stream winners" etc), they may have a few reincarnations left until they are completely extinguished, depending on their level. For someone with achievement in that tradition, their sense of self is completely gone, as is the attachment to the 5 senses...which I can understand prevents suffering sometimes, but IMO isn't what happiness or peace is all about either!

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[eye_of_the_storm]

Wild goose chase hahaha

 

Edited October 18, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[XieJia]

I think what you guys said about Buddhism have some valid points.

 

However to my observation, I'd never see anyone happier than those realized ones.

 

The Buddha points out that:

The five aggregates is ever-changing,

through being attached to any state of them is short-lived.

That attachment is suffering once with the states' cessation.

 

The happiness lies in the freedom from desiring and freedom from attachments.

 

Buddhist aims to cultivate "Mindfulness" in place of Ignorances;

in the end, it's just Ignorances that disappears; and anything that is attached to it.

 

[Jetsun]

Buddhism = spiritual suicide

 

Buddhism has some of the most detailed and profound teachings that exist on the planet, it is properly understanding them which is the problem and applying them to our modern lives and situation which can cause errors. It can possibly lead to spiritual suicide because it is actually quite subtle so if you fall off the balance it is easy to fall into nihilism, maybe far more easily than most other paths, but there are probably more examples of masters who have achieved realizations through Buddhism than any other path too, the results speak for themselves. Even in pre Communist China if you read John Blofelds books he searched the country for realised teachers and found that the vast majority who were considered as having achieved some mastery were Buddhist rather than Taoist. So I wouldn't write it off as useless just follow the Buddhas own words and don't believe anything anyone tells you about it without realising it for yourself, as it is subject to the same distortions and corruptions as all the other religions.

[Apech]

I doubt anyone can approximate how Vaj felt - especially with that nick:-)

 

Right, so if I say 'I hate my life, it's shit, I'm suffering, I get treated badly by everyone, I treat others badly (although the latter is maybe not apparent at a first reading) and therefore it is pointless to continue life' that = 'annihilist'? Or I'm not getting it? I did make a distinction between a 'shit life' and 'life' (I think I did:-))

 

You could also just intellectually decide that nothing really exists and therefore it doesn't matter what you do and so on ... that would be nihilism too.

[Apech]

I totally don't like it when someone just points me to a book instead of explaining, so in case you don't check it out...something it said is that for a Buddha, this is their last life. Once their body dies, that's it, period. No more existence for that mind-stream, we could say. For other realized ones (like "stream winners" etc), they may have a few reincarnations left until they are completely extinguished, depending on their level. For someone with achievement in that tradition, their sense of self is completely gone, as is the attachment to the 5 senses...which I can understand prevents suffering sometimes, but IMO isn't what happiness or peace is all about either!

 

Yes .... That's the Theravadan view ... not the one I hold or understand. I favour the non-dualism of Nagarjuna and so on but the Theravedans would say that is a fiction and not what the Buddha taught. Like all things its up to people to make up their minds.

 

Back on topic ... I would say this is important that people maintain their own critical faculties and failure to do this could be spiritual suicide I guess.

 

Each to his own.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[eye_of_the_storm]

Granted there are some interesting aspects to it

 

I agree it is easy to fall into nihilism, very easy perhaps.

 

Practice subject to self annihilation?

 

A faster path would be excessive drug use, or even faster a lobotomy?

 

.... instant "enlightenment" hmm?

 

Buddhism even has how to commit suicide guides.... no kidding.

 

The subtle stuff is the more alarming though... as people are not fully conscious of the process they are undertaking.

 

Few people have the time to read the collective works of Buddhist thought and commentaries about commentaries about commentaries.

 

So I will make it very simple for people and sum up the entire teachings of the Buddha in 2 words .... spiritual suicide.

 

Something is either all good or it is no good... really I think?

 

Too extreme?

 

If you see the Buddha kill the Buddha.

Edited October 18, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[GrandmasterP]

Yep Buddhism has a dark side for sure but so have all religions and most philosophies too.

People are people and you'll find toe rags and abusers anywhere.

You'll not see a Buddha to kill a Buddha and anyone begins picking off clergy of any stripe isn't necessarily completely sane.

Boddhisatvas (Sp?), Spirit Guides, Angels and similar affiliated trades {same job different job titles} though, i do think we all get to bump into those sorts during our lucky lives. And you'd not want to kill one of them cos they're usually helping you out of as scrape or crossing your palm with happy fortune.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Slight on the Zen teaching / though I think you already know that

 

Just because all religions are a little bit naughty doesnt mean we should consider such things ok based on it being common.

 

Corruption is common, so let us all be corrupt... does anyone have a broom?

 

My thoughts are... no true master would be silly enough to teach anything.

 

I, Silence is the best teacher.

 

Trees too

 

and flowers

 

and the sun

 

and our animal friends.

 

I think in regards the mind people should be given tools and nothing more

 

You see the Buddha is a deceiver or a fool... he says to have no concepts... though the first noble truth is... life is suffering?

 

Ummm.... hmmm

 

Anyhow back to "I think in regards the mind people should be given tools and nothing more"

 

γνῶθι σεαυτόν (gnōthi seautón = "know thyself")

μηδέν άγαν (mēdén ágan = "nothing in excess"),

Ἑγγύα πάρα δ'ἄτη (engýa pára d'atē = "make a pledge and mischief is nigh" (be careful what you promise))

Edited October 18, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[GrandmasterP]

I like Zen a lot it just does not like me very much especially my poor old legs.

PL chanting I love and it seems to pay dividends. Inner smile is always that bit more more smiley after a nice chant.

Can see your point about silence Wolfy but in our neck of the woods they need to be told where the loos are and how to find the fire escapes if the alarm goes off.

Beyond that it is mostly demonstration far more than any talking.

That's why I love teaching QiGong it's more about showing than telling whereas here at work in my day (and some evenings) job all I 'do' when I'm lecturing is talk.

[Aaron]

Buddhism is just as destructive as Christianity or any other religion when it comes to self-image and perception of self. If one is seeking individual realization, Buddhist would probably be the last place I'd suggest they look. The notion of suffering and dharma are just as damaging as the notion of sin. In both religions there is this notion that there is something that is wrong and needs to be fixed, when in fact there is NOTHING wrong with anyone, except what they perceive to be wrong, and those perceptions are not real, only misunderstood.

 

Suffering is a necessary part of life, without it we could not have enjoyment. To give up enjoyment, empathy, and the relationships one can attain with their fellows in order to be free of suffering, is not only selfish, but idiotic in my own opinion.

 

Aaron

Edited October 18, 2012 by Aaron

[Birch]

You could also just intellectually decide that nothing really exists and therefore it doesn't matter what you do and so on ... that would be nihilism too.

 

And that would be misunderstanding bhuddism? I suppose it would be classed as such.

I'm (surprisingly:-)) not against some aspects of bhuddist ideas. The idea that you can look at yourself, the world, people in ways other than anything (or everything) you've learned till point P (this one) is an excellent one. The idea that certain ideas have specific consequences that one may not see otherwise, that sort of thing. The idea of emptying yourself of everything until this point received. I (think:-)) that's all great stuff. Is that still bhuddism? Aren't they all (the religions) supposed to be rafts? And when you're done with them, you're done.

And bhuddists are super sharp debaters. That's very cool training.

[Apech]

Well its interesting to me how many people on here seem to hate Buddhism. I can only assume people have had bad experiences with it ... and I would agree there's a lot of 'bad' Buddhism taught ... partly for commercial reasons but also because of cultural misunderstandings. I'm a bit agog at some of things being said though such as Aaron's "when in fact there is NOTHING wrong with anyone, except what they perceive to be wrong, and those perceptions are not real, only misunderstood." ... which is exactly the message of buddha-nature ... I think perhaps many Buddhists themselves don't get these simple points which is a shame.

 

I think it kind of brings us back to the main point of this thread which to me is a question ... why does Eastern spirituality make people try to suppress their own individuality? It is clearly a mistake and the core messages of those systems (I would uphold) do not actually say that you should do this. Why do people like to dress in rags and knitted hats and eat one grain of rice a day ... when the 'master' is driving a Rolls Royce???

 

Its wrong. OK we all go through stages, dark nights and so on, when we get a desperate about ourselves and perhaps the way we have behaved in the past, but the general process of spiritual development is one of becoming more and more open, more responsive, more spontaneous ... and actually more your self ... in the sense of a naturally happy and creative being. All I can say is avoid the circus, keep a careful eye on those around you, and just practice, practice, practice.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Birch]

Apech, that's a great post. As I understand it, you're a 'lone' practitioner, as in 'not affiliated' with any specific group of people doing practices. Do you reckon that makes a difference?

[Apech]

Apech, that's a great post. As I understand it, you're a 'lone' practitioner, as in 'not affiliated' with any specific group of people doing practices. Do you reckon that makes a difference?

 

I confess to some Buddhist affiliations ... (this is like Buddhaholics Anonymous ha ha) ...

 

Actually I think its important to not give a damn what anyone else does ... if you see what I mean. I studied for years under a Christian Hermetic teacher but every time he mentioned God or Jesus I had to translate it to myself into something I could assimiliate ... this taught me that the real truth is 'to the person' ... or maybe a truth is a truth that you capture for yourself ... or something. In other words even though I had real problems with the terms he used I somehow had great confidence in him as a person ... so I did the work to try the 'get' what he was saying to me.

 

I've also spent a long time working on Ancient Egyptian Texts directly using the original hieroglyphs with no living teachers (I know there are some who claim but they make simple mistakes so I have no confidence in them) and this has made me work everything out for myself. So even if I study something like buddhist text I always pull it apart and put it back together in terms that I understand.

 

The other thing is (and every good teacher I've ever had has said this) if you hear a good idea you must immediately hammer it to destruction ... if it stands up to your testing and analysis then you can keep it for yourself.

 

In the end ... I think ... whatever system you follow mysticism is a solo task ... you are alone and that is how you must work. What Plotinus called the 'flight of the alone to the Alone'.

[XieJia]

In the end ... I think ... whatever system you follow mysticism is a solo task ... you are alone and that is how you must work. What Plotinus called the 'flight of the alone to the Alone'.

 

each one knows each one

though alone, every else is there.

 

my personal experience of Buddhism have been fruitful and life-changing,

The Buddha's teachings has allows me to come to terms and accept many things.

 

I am sure this also applies to other religions around the world for other people.

 

I am not sure why Eastern Spirituality will repress the individuality,

come to the East and one will find that we are still all individuals.

 

Edited October 19, 2012 by XieJia

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Apech]

How do you know that when you put it back together you do not distort it?

 

Sometimes to learn the truth one has to put it back together in term of the truth... and one must learn to understand the truth

 

Test it to see if it is self-consistent. Truth is self-consistent.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[GrandmasterP]

Comprehension is of necessity contingent on prior knowledge and experience. We see as it were 'through a glass darkly' as someone once said. I'm posting this on an all new singing and dancing iPad collected yesterday. The techie explained it all to me at great length. I recognised each and every word he used but not a single one of his sentences did I comprehend.

 

 

 

 

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts