Apech Posted October 19, 2012 A: I always pull it apart and put it back together in terms that I understand. e: How do you know that when you put it back together you do not distort it? Sometimes to learn the truth one has to put it back together in term of the truth... and one must learn to understand the truth A: Test it to see if it is self-consistent. Truth is self-consistent. How do you know that when you put it back together it is self-consistent with the original and that you did not distort it? BTW delusions are self-consistent ... in the terms that the deluded understand... Well I don't agree ... but hey! each to his own. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted October 19, 2012 Monological as opposed to diva logical springs to mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted October 19, 2012 Monological as opposed to diva logical springs to mind. Does it? Any chance of explaining why? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted October 19, 2012 Easy. I can't use iPad yet is the explanation. I meant to post monological/dialogicical. Thus..... It's never a dialogue if one party simply parrots monologic views. HTH [posted via Kindle] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted October 19, 2012 Easy. I can't use iPad yet is the explanation. I meant to post monological/dialogicical. Thus..... It's never a dialogue if one party simply parrots monologic views. HTH [posted via Kindle] iPad ... Kindle ... you technogod!!!! ... and me typing on an abacus. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted October 19, 2012 Well we actually agree .... at least on the notion that we don't agree... :-) The issue as I see it is more about understanding each other than agreeing with each other... First understand then decide if agree or disagree ... One thing that living with dyslexia has taught me involves... taking different ways to validate that what I see corresponds to what I see... Well actually one of the strategies involves moving ahead knowing the likelihood and uncertainties involved being prepared to instantaneously recognize and adapt to deviations...Another involves ensuring that the error does little to affect the result... Think of it as an emergent precision of the system of somewhat imperfect pieces that put together ensure the increased precision of the system... rather than the other way around... As a boss I had once told me... look we will not be able to get rid of errors so lets make sure we deal with them in effective ways before they present themselves... What are errors and what are not errors. Or perhaps I should say even the errors signify a form of truth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted October 20, 2012 In the context I used them above it meant that the perception I have of reality and the reality are different ... there is no agreement between what I think is real and what happens to be real... In a more general context of two individuals dialoguing errors would mean the perceiver of an idea perceives what they think is the idea and this does not agree with the emitter... I am not saying that one actually has to agree with the idea per say, I am saying one has to actually be able to express the idea per say... Imagine I bring in a widget into the room... I say its a telephone, you say its a calendar, someone else claims it an alam-clock... What I am talking about is the ability of each being able to express to someone else what each claimed regardless of agreeing with them that the widget is what they claim it to be... Many times I realize how some do not even understand what I said and they are already judging what they think I said... This links to repress your individuality part of this thread... Actually, having read thru this post a number of times, its still not clear what sort of point you're attempting to make. Take the closing statement for eg. 'This links to repress your individuality part of this thread...' -- meaning what?? It makes one wonder if you actually understand what you wrote. Funny thing is there appears now a repetitive pattern where you keep impressing upon readers that nobody really understands what your true message is, and whats even funnier, oi think you're spot on with this conclusion, guv. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fizix Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) qp Edited October 20, 2012 by fizix Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fizix Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) qp Edited October 20, 2012 by fizix Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fizix Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) Well, here's the thing... When one naturally experiences Oneness with the Tao and realizes ego as an illusion and all that other fun stuff, for the most part it's all good, because there is an underlying foundation of spiritual energy and understanding transcending language that was naturally developed on the Path leading one to this profound experience. In the old days, the masters would let their students grow into this experiential understanding naturally, without ever answering questions in a direct, literal sense... But always answering questions with questions, metaphors, parables, riddles, silence/transmission, etc... to make sure the student comes to true understanding through meditation, otherwise the true teaching is lost... and all the fun is taken out of it! Now modern day/society on the other hand... there is this huge, global surge of interest, obsession even, of all things new age, spiritual, mystical and whatnot... and dont get me wrong, i think thats great and all, but we have everyone (from teens, fiends, to old beans) who, conditioned by our instant-gratification-based-society, are after the magic pill, the magic mantra, or this magic "concept", idea that will flip their worlds upside down and surely transform them into Yoda in 21 days or less or "your money back guaranteed..." and mark my words it wont be long before we see "Become Enlightened in 21 Days or Less!" and "How to Open Your Third Eye (Overnight!) For Dummies!") Now this magic "concept" for many seems to be "your ego is an illusion" which to the uninitiated somehow translates to "kill your ego, 'you' are an illusion, your purpose, desires, dreams, thoughts, feelings and relationships are all an unreal pointless delusion".. Hmmm… so your average uninhibited, materialistic/egotistic person who has yet to ever meditate or make any true spiritual development gets interested in that trendy new thing called spirituality and stumbles on some new-age site or forum where he discovers the hip ‘concept’ of “Oneness” and the “illusion of the ego” and subscribes to it as if it were any other religious dogma, making all these misguided assumptions on how to live one’s life, perhaps repressed-energy/brute-force induced, radical over-zealous external life changes such as getting rid of all of one’s possessions, ‘spiritual relocation’, forced-suppression of all emotional energy and detachment/disinterest of relationships, hobbies, ambitions and other ‘worldly’ things all unbecoming of an aspiring “enlightened being”… How long does that last before the inevitable flip? Doesn’t surprise me that now I am seeing lots of people vehemently opposed to Eastern Spiritual principles/Universal Truths even going so far as to call them satanic/demonic/evil whatever… The "spiritual teachers" of today won't teach akin to the sages of old because there isn't much money in upsetting your eager students by withholding wisdom that they aren't ready to receive. Funny...people conditioned that the right sequence of dualistic conceptual knowledge will instantly ascend them into infinite bliss and tranquility... which ironically, paradoxically somehow turns into this so-called non-dualistic non-conceptual non-knowledge . Edited October 20, 2012 by fizix Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted October 20, 2012 Did you ever notice that the people who make most noise in condemning the beliefs of others as satanic or worse tend to come from the lunatic fringes of their own faith pathways? I'm thinking of the warm hearted fun loving Xtian Pentecostalists who picketed our centre in Manchester when we opened it those people were really nasty pieces of work in that particular context. Yet where we live now there's an interfaith council where everyone is welcomed Pagans, us the works . Funnily enough the Pentecostalists here don't send a delegate to that either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted October 20, 2012 Did you ever notice that the people who make most noise in condemning the beliefs of others as satanic or worse tend to come from the lunatic fringes of their own faith pathways? I'm thinking of the warm hearted fun loving Xtian Pentecostalists who picketed our centre in Manchester when we opened it those people were really nasty pieces of work in that particular context. Yet where we live now there's an interfaith council where everyone is welcomed Pagans, us the works . Funnily enough the Pentecostalists here don't send a delegate to that either. Does this include people who say Buddhism is spiritual suicide? ...and where is your centre in Manchester ... I used to live there and still have family there abouts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted October 20, 2012 Kind of you to show an interest,will PM you a link when I work out how to make iPad to work again. Back on Kindle at the mo.. Been going a good few years now they advertise special events in MEN and yes as someone who cultivates a PL ritual practice [nembutsu] I would include anyone roundly condemning Buddhism as spiritual suicide reserving the right to lump some Tibetan manifestations of it in with the lunatic fringe pentecostalists. There's one Tibetan New Kadampa sub sect proscribes their members reading any books other than those written by their founder. I'e posted two links to their publications elsehere on here check em out.. Now that has to be spiritual suicide. Fair play to them though they run excellent veggie cafes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted October 20, 2012 Non native-Tibetan DL devotees too, totally potty. Bang up to date of course. The date being sometime in feudal Tibet circa 1952. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eye_of_the_storm Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) Does this include people who say Buddhism is spiritual suicide? ...and where is your centre in Manchester ... I used to live there and still have family there abouts. Techniques over concepts when it comes to the great ? Buddhism has too many concepts though it says no concepts... On what authority does Buddhism have to say that life is suffering? (the entire foundation of Buddhism is based on this) None. Why not tell that happy little bird singing its wonderful songs outside your window that life is suffering? You have adopted the beliefs of a pessimist. In the west it is called philosophical pessimism... we do not worship or deify philosophers. Edited October 21, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted October 21, 2012 Techniques over concepts when it comes to the great ? Buddhism has too many concepts though it says no concepts... On what authority does Buddhism have to say that life is suffering? (the entire foundation of Buddhism is based on this) None. Why not tell that happy little bird singing its wonderful songs outside your window that life is suffering? You have adopted the beliefs of a pessimist. In the west it is called philosophical pessimism... we do not worship or deify philosophers. I am not a self elected defend-the dharma man ... but I will try. Even techniques have some kind of conceptual framework in order to function. Idea and concepts are as much part of reality as things or energy etc. so are totally legitimate and part of the spectrum of (human) consciousness. Buddhism has a 'view' which is encapsulated in Buddhist philosophy. In the Mahayana this is based on emptiness, form as emptiness and emptiness is form and so on. Enlightenment and Buddha activity are non-conceptual however Buddhism as a path uses many concepts to get to this awakening. The first Noble Truth that existence involves suffering is not based on authority in the sense that it is so because the Buddha says it is so ... but as the story of the Buddha's life illustrates is based on the observation that people do suffer. Suffer does not necessarily mean to be in pain but may just mean 'subject to conditionality' ... the main thrust of the dharma is that this suffering is unnecessary and that you can find happiness instead. Why not tell that happy little bird singing its wonderful songs outside your window that life is suffering? I wouldn't dream of telling any little bird anything ... my cat might take the opportunity for supper of course. You have adopted the beliefs of a pessimist. In the west it is called philosophical pessimism... we do not worship or deify philosophers. Do not presume to know what I have done or not done. I am not for a minute suggesting you should become a Buddhist ... its up to you ... but it might help if you understood something about it first. Buddha was not a philosopher and not a pessimist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eye_of_the_storm Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) ah yes I knew the... everything is a concept thing would come up... I assume you understand what I am saying however... I don't assume you to be buddhist based on other posts... I don't expect you to defend it etc either... I did spend some time studying buddhism in my youth - even at one stage perhaps evening calling myself such. I spent time volunteering at a buddhist monastry (tibetan) for a month also and had even considered becoming a monk. Considering Zen monasticism. I soon woke from this silly dream + silly stories and moved on. My purpose here is to provide a counter agrument as Buddhism has been made out to be the perfect untouchable path to "enlightenment" / freedom (whatever that is). I found it to be quite the opposite anyhow. I was late teens then I am around 23 now. This is just another perspective for others... I say be cautious. Now I understand that I havnt provide too much in way of reasons why on this particulur thread... though I suppose i have more or less in a number of different threads... As I said briefly before...granted there are some interesting/ thought provoking aspects to this philosophy I wouldnt rush out and start bowing to plastic golden statues however. Buddhism is just as "satanic" as christianity + all the religions of Abraham... Everything has been so polluted / distorted / manipulated etc that these things now are completely worthless... one drop of poison will ruin the entire well. My religion is no religion my religion is experiential truth my religon is to empower people /// work in progress... ^^ haha Peace! Edited October 21, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) That 'experiential truth' can be a fickle mistress Wolfie. Bird just sings. Lovely. You find yourself in a hide at a bird observatory and some twinkle wearing all the right bird watcher kit and holding megadollar binoculars and a scope goes 'That's a lesser spotted twite, juvenile plumage, first season warble'. Kid in the same hide says 'Listen mummy, a pretty birdie'. Bird just sings. Edited October 21, 2012 by GrandmasterP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eye_of_the_storm Posted October 21, 2012 ah yes true ^ Idiot taoist I hope the Mountain Dragon doesnt mind.... am I qualified enough? ahah Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
