Using Eastern spirituality to repress your individuality

[eye_of_the_storm]

Assuming for the purposes of this discussion that the Jesus story is literally true I have a slightly different take on what it means. Jesus was executed by a combination of the established church (the Jewish one) and the secular state (Rome). Jesus threatened priestly authority over people's lives and was deconstructing the hate-the-other cycle by which religion establishes identity. Rome in the person of Pilate tried to wash their hands of the problem but in the end decided that expediency was preferable and more easily managed than truth. ('What is truth?' ... Christ was silent.). The mob called for Barabas to be released because ordinary people are in the thrall of the manipulative concepts/indoctrination operated by Church and State. If the crucifixion has a message it is do not bend the knee to Church and State or you risk destroying your chance of salvation (represented by Christ).

 

Water into wine ... well I get the symbolism ... water (primal substance) becomes wine (spirit). Why did he shut his mother off??? Why did the men have to ask for him to perform a miracle? Who was getting married? I don't want to go all Dan Brown on this but ... there is no groom mentioned ...

 

Turn the other cheek ... is this not actually 'volte face' in Latin and although it does mean turn the cheek ... it means to turn away. It means if someone wants to start a fight you should walk away ... it does not mean offer the other cheek even though it has been made to mean this over centuries of priestly word craft. Jesus did not want us to be door mats but also he did not want us to seek revenge.

 

Love ... Christian love as distinct to romantic love ... means the willingness to become vulnerable yourself in order to benefit others ... this is where jesus sounds exactly like a Mahayana Buddhist ... good for him.

 

Cool post cheers!

 

Love the Latin translation thank you.... mistranslation... huge errors in understanding. Superb clarification

 

I would be interested in your take of the Divine Wedding too

 

Perhaps another thread? or ref material / link?

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Apech]

Yes I suppose the 'what is truth' could be rhetorical but I have always taken it to be an unanswerable question. He found no basis for the charge against him ... and still crucified him ... that is the state in action. Truth becomes the official version of events and it is always for the state that which is expedient. The appeal to the people has to be rigged of course, int he sense that propaganda is involved as they end up pleading for the release of Barabbas. Oddly Bar Abba(s) seems to mean son of the Father!!!

[Birch]

I very much enjoyed your post Apech. I have been recently reading something else about the Jesus 'thing' which also frames it as 'anti-establishment'. The governing powers of the times claim their authority from God in Heaven. So basically, a guy turns up claiming actual filiation to said God, with some amount of ability to 'show to tell'. Smacks the local 'godmen' upside and gets martyred in the process.

 

Cut to further down the line. Said martyr gets co-opted for hundreds of years of whatever people want to do 'in his name'. Not all of which BTW has anything much to do with the ideas had in the first place.

 

Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is that there seems to be a relatively consistent element that comes into play (and power) every time the human rulers (obviously claiming their divine origin and 'justification' for being in place) go too far. Needn't be a single element neither.

[GrandmasterP]

Endless re-reading of the Xtian myths , Mr Jesus as a proto Che Guevara and such is just another reading. We can, and do; create our gods according to our own preferences .

Love manifests in its enactment rather than in any interpretation, be that interpretation Eros or Agape of Filia in this current Koine Greek context.

[Birch]

Endless re-reading of the Xtian myths , Mr Jesus as a proto Che Guevara and such is just another reading. We can, and do; create our gods according to our own preferences .

Love manifests in its enactment rather than in any interpretation, be that interpretation Eros or Agape of Filia in this current Koine Greek context.

 

Well I did have El Che in mind too while making this post. I was in Cuba not so long ago and it was a strange mixture.

 

[GrandmasterP]

Piccy of Fidel in today's paper. Poor old guy does not look like he's long for this mortal coil.

I quite like the reading of Mr Jesus as a revolutionary but possibly Monty Python's Life of Brian is as close to whatever passes for truth in these matters.

Every faith path depends on stuff the founders followers wrote down long after the founder passed over hence they tend to consist of what folk would have had he founder say if only he or she had seen things heir way. Paul and all who came after him for the Xtians plus any Sutra you ever read for our Buddhist cousins.

Re-imaginings upon re-imaginings.

[Birch]

You mean Castro's bro?

They look pretty similar.

 

The open discussion sessions he (bro Castro) has with people (televised) are pretty interesting. The prosecution for cow-killing also. Also the poor kids who will wait along the tourist roads for people to throw them stuff. I wondered why our poor kids are not out there waiting for people to throw them things. Think they can't be that poor huh? I'm figuring it could be something else.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[eye_of_the_storm]

Yes I suppose the 'what is truth' could be rhetorical but I have always taken it to be an unanswerable question. He found no basis for the charge against him ... and still crucified him ... that is the state in action. Truth becomes the official version of events and it is always for the state that which is expedient. The appeal to the people has to be rigged of course, int he sense that propaganda is involved as they end up pleading for the release of Barabbas. Oddly Bar Abba(s) seems to mean son of the Father!!!

 

This Bar abba thing is interesting too... causing a riot?

 

So we have Barabbas who is son of the Father... Chaos?

 

and we have JChrist who is son of the Father... Order?

 

Luciferian consciouness V Christ Consciousness?

 

And the peoples choice between the 2...

 

as JC said

 

“You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

 

So Truth v Deception?

 

So Judaism sided with the Devil basically?

 

Which they appear to have made a habit of....?

 

Considering the execution of innocence + the golden calf worhsip over Mosaic Law + the money lenders in the temple + usury... etc etc.

 

Has anyone read the " Gods of Eden"

 

^ talks about the OT + NT and the gods.... not MONO 1 god... many gods are mentioned ... and aliens?

 

hahah :/

Edited October 24, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Apech]

I don't do Jesus much TBH ... but the one thing I take from him is this ... don't trust the state, don't trust religion as an arm of the state ... don't trust the muggles cos they'll turn on you.

 

I don't see this a proto Che or anyone else really. I just think that all that is handed down via the Catholic Church, the vulgate Bible and so on is twisted. So I have no time for Christianity but have a kind of affection for J. H. Christ himself.

 

I'm not saying what I said before is the whole story its just the bit I take from it. Generally speaking through history mystics have been persecuted or made to shut up. Why? We live in an age now where you can expres yourself but this is unusual and we shouldn't forget it.

[eye_of_the_storm]

"Wizards represent all that the true 'Muggle' most fears: They are plainly outcasts and comfortable with being so. Nothing is more unnerving to the truly conventional than the unashamed misfit!"

 

—J. K. Rowling

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[GrandmasterP]

Don't matter how valid the original person was, soon enough they pass on and it's left to their followers to jockey for position via re-writes and re-imaginings of what the guy who kicked it off should have said had s/he but agreed with them. Hence 'holy' writ.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[zanshin]

It's a reflection of a copy of an echo of a distortion

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[PLB]

Interesting thread, a lot to think about.

 

One thing that was mentioned tangentially but is worth saying directly is that the "Western" tradition has no shortage of philosophers/theologiists/psychologists who have called for the abnegation of self and ego.

 

I am leary of lumping all the examples of such negation as part of one idea or view of the world. For instance, when reading St. John of the Divine and Pascal side by side; one might notice they are sharing a language of personal psychology while also talking about completely different problems.

Edited October 25, 2012 by PLB

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[C T]

Ah but there's such a thing as enlightened selfishness!

 

http://www.pattern.com/kimura-aynlao.html

[Stosh]

Wordplay.

Stosh

[GrandmasterP]

 

 

Some DO reflect on the original statement after they get past the distortions... some get distracted by the distortions... and sometimes the original is worth it all...

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........

 

Only time you'll get anywhere near the original message is if the original guy comes back and tells you stuff.

Bit like FH and his mate Li Ehr.

And very few will believe you.

All the rest is just re-interpretation, same as you are doing here et.

Unless of course Mr Jesus speaks direct to YOU.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[GrandmasterP]

Flowing Hands is a Shaman on here, he lives up on the Taoist threads.

Mr Jesus is recorded as only ever writing in the sand. Anything you read 'by' him is somebody else's riff on an interpretation re-imagined by somebody else then pressed through a dogmatic sieve.

But you know that et.

Choosing to believe is fine, everyone does that sometimes.