Reiki

[Thunder_Gooch]

Hundun,

 

The reason no one takes Wim Hof or John Chang seriously are all the newage fruitbats practicing reiki and casting wiccan spells dancing naked around campfires in the moonlight.

 

I am even friends with a few of these fruitbats, some who think they can raise an army of the dead using seals and sigils, they are 35+ years old and still living in their parents basement, and still haven't gotten their spells to work well enough to win the lottery.

 

 

Reiki is one of those business model practices where you pay for attunements like you pay for a blackbelt after performing some stupid kata (dance). There is absolutely no effort required to become a Reiki master ™

 

There are thousands of reiki "masters" here in the USA, and there have been many more studies done on such practices.

 

 

2008 systematic review of 205 randomized clinical trials assessing the evidence basis of reiki concluded that efficacy had not been demonstrated for any condition.

 

 

subsequent trials with adequate placebo or sham controls have shown no difference between the procedure and the control groups.

 

 

http://onlinelibrary...1B5C0E64.d04t02

 

In conclusion, the evidence is insufficient to suggest that reiki is an effective treatment for any condition.

 

People like Chang and Hoff, represent real arts and what can be accomplished with some hard work and dedication.

 

Also you do realize the head of the mind science foundation, A biophysicist, and a medical doctor were present, stripped him to a shirt and checked him for metal with a metal detector, and he was still able to demo his ability, so they took him to a random hotel room, where he powered an LED light.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

seems like every other year or so Reiki resurfaces as a topic on this forum. there are a number of Reiki topics that deal with the themes in this thread.

 

as with most topics, i stand with my brother Seth on this one. back when i was new to this message board i had a very negative attitude towad reiki because i had so many silly encounters with practitioners or reiki, EVEN THOUGH MY OWN EXPERIENCE WITH REIKI WAS RATHER REMARKABLE. it took me some time to get to a place where i could actually appreciate what is profound and authentic about reiki without rejecting it based on some very legitimate issues i've had with many communities of practicioners, not to mention the misinformation, fragmentation, and missing pieces in what passes as reiki training today.

 

here's a thread i posted about reiki a few years ago. it was sort of my piece gesture with reiki in the tao bums community.

 

http://thetaobums.co...tion-for-reiki/

 

 

 

 

i appreciate your high standards and critical sensibility. i tend to be the same way. not an easy guy to please.

 

however, there's something i think you might be missing from the video of Wim Hof that you posted.

 

 

 

i think it's a bit unfair and unreasoned to claim that others haven't "stepped up to the bat," especially when Wim Hof HIMSELF expresses what a daunting task it has been for him to find anyone who was willing to take him seriously and investigate his skills. he put his skills on display as a circus act for who knows how long before anyone with credibility took notice. it's such a rare occasion that it moved him to tears.

 

 

i had a back-n-forth with Sloppy Zhang a couple of years ago around a very similar issue of verifiable evidence.

 

http://thetaobums.co...ng/#entry201210

 

i even offered myself to be investigated by any of the science folks at his University. but he didn't find anyone willing to take it up. i put that on the general culture of cynnicism and mockery that still runs think in the scientific community.

 

 

and also, even though the intestigators were said to be scientists, there was nothing really scientific about the investigation that was done on John Chang. they went in with some very basic gadgets available at any Radio Shack and did such a simple and basic investigation that just about anyone on the street could have done it. they got more video footage, yes. but their methods of inquery were pretty weak.

Edited October 19, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

The precise summary reads:

 

 

Discussion:  In total, the trial data for any one condition are scarce and independent replications are not available for each condition. Most trials suffered from methodological flaws such as small sample size, inadequate study design and poor reporting.

 

Conclusion:  In conclusion, the evidence is insufficient to suggest that reiki is an effective treatment for any condition. Therefore the value of reiki remains unproven.

 

Which says pretty clearly that the study was based on insufficient data. What that means is that it neither proves nor disproves the efficacy of Reiki, which is quite a different conclusion. In effect it is a study that proves nothing at all.

 

The point here, is that there have been vastly more studies on reiki than there have been on tummo. I know of only 4 studies done on tummo and in each case the results have been amazing.

 

Reiki may help people emotionally, but so would giving them a hug. It doesn't generate the results other practices can, such as increasing your body temperature or controlling your immune system at will or generating a bio-electric current.

 

Reiki's main value is in the fact it requires no effort, so it is popular with the crowd who like other practices that require no effort, wicca/magick, occult/pagan ritual, etc.

 

It has a good entertainment value, but not much else.

Edited October 19, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

Here is reiki:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is wim hof practicing tummo to control his immune system under medical observation:

 

 

 

There was a study about it as well:

 

 

The influence of concentration/meditation on autonomic nervous system activity and the innate immune response: a case study.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22685240

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is reiki:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is Wim Hof being packed in ice for over an hour using tummo to emerge steaming hot:

 

 

Here is a medical observation on his cold endurance abilities:

 

Can meditation influence the autonomic nervous system? A case report of a man

immersed in crushed ice for 80 minutes.

 

Here is a google translation from the medical center:

 

http://translate.goo...NbF386eswXF0rsA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is reiki:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a neigong master demonstrating his abilities for the head of the mind science foundation, a biophysicist and a medical doctor:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoOgZsQGQpA&t=1m56s

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also I have heard of no famous Magick user, even Aleister Crowley that achieved anything even slightly meaningful, ever.

 

I have heard the extent of Crowley's abilities were to be able to make a person he was following trip by synchronizing his walk with theirs or something like that.

Edited October 20, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[三江源]

I have heard the extend of Crowley's abilities were to be able to make a person he was following trip by synchronizing his walk with theirs or something like that.

 

Magic!

 

 

Sssssssspppppppppppeeecccccttttttttttrummmmmmm.

 

Spectrum of healing modalities.

 

Who is the most effective actor? Is it Brad Pitt or Viggo Mortensen? I think Viggo.

 

Or it could be MIchael Caine.

 

 

Not many people know that.

[Birch]

Cat, I figure it does depend how old one is:-) Used to be BP for me (think Thelma & Louise days). Now definitely Viggo;-)

[Seth Ananda]

I am even friends with a few of these fruitbats, some who think they can raise an army of the dead using seals and sigils, they are 35+ years old and still living in their parents basement, and still haven't gotten their spells to work well enough to win the lottery.

 

MPG. I am beginning to wonder -again- whether you are interested in anything but trolling.

 

you come up with the same sad, boring arguments over and over again.

 

Yes we know you met a few lame ass 'wiccans' in your time! You have used this analogy hundreds of times!

 

My question to you is are you a Moron?

 

Can you see that this proves nothing more than you know a few sad delusional people? {and that they themselves do not know how to do any magick, Which says nothing at all about anyone else!}

 

Why would you judge a whole field of development on people who barely even qualify to be called members? Wouldn't you want to talk to the PHD's rather than people who may not qualify for preschool?

Can you see the logic to this, or are you a Moron?

 

Yet you continue, like a Moron, to use this example which means nothing. Why?

 

 

Your tone is full of bigotry and condescension based on some stupid conclusions drawn from stupid people.

You have not explored for yourself the results these things bring.

 

You seem to think you are special because you had experiences that effected others in your family, Many many people have had these kind of experiences. Some from things like Reiki! You are not the only person who has had 'real' experiences!

 

You also seem to think that because you love mo pai and practice tummo, and strap a wire to your perenium that you are scientifically above everyone else.

 

You are not. In fact your scientific logic is quite faulty, as i am pointing out.

 

Millions of monks practice Tummo, along side practices which are Identical to those in magick, and even some very much like reiki. Infact my friends learnt the White Tara healing system directly from the Gyuoto Monks, and it was almost exactly the same. It began with an empowerment, then they learnt a mantra and some symbols, and then they put their hands on the body. Then they were told that they would get better and better with practice, and that further initiations are be available once their skills had improved. Which is the way Reiki is supposed to progress. {before cash hungry westerners decided to offer reiki 1, 2, and Master level, all in a weekend and other crazy western shenanigans... }

 

 

I am calling you out MPG. I challenge you too an Impeccability trial!

 

I know you like to think of yourself as scientifically savy, and rational and sceptical, so prove it!

 

Never use that lame description of your delusional basement Wiccan again.

 

It is a low dirty tactic. It is intellectually dishonest. No actual scientist would use that case as data, let alone as 'proof' of something. So you stop using it as well.

Skeptics as well, would go to the allegedly 'good' sources to investigate a claim. They would just laugh at sad people in a basement.

 

If you wan't to consider yourself as belonging to these 'esteemed' crowds, then you better learn what qualifies as a scientific opinion.

 

so, If you are not a moron, and are capable of rationality, I demand, in the name of Honesty, that you start showing higher standards in your case studies, and in your language.

 

You also regularly claim things untrue because you in all your Majesticness have not seen it produce results!

 

Please! Who the fuck do you think you are? A Psi investigation team? Where have you even looked? If you make statements like that in the future, I demand that you qualify it by exactly what studies or experiments you did on the subject that lead to your Holy conclusions.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Seth,

 

Some practices get real results, others don't.

 

If you aren't getting real results, you are playing make believe.

 

You know playing make believe isn't so bad, I mean if you enjoy it go for it. It's like a real life LARP, except you are really really pretending to not pretend you are pretending.

 

Sorry if my view offends you, it isn't a personal attack on you.

 

I just dislike practices that don't get results and I think they are a waste of time and effort.

 

I guess we can agree to disagree on that point.

 

 

P.S.

 

The wiccan story stays. The wiccans I know in real life are like newage Juggalos.

 

 

[/font][/color]

MPG. I am beginning to wonder -again- whether you are interested in anything but trolling.

you come up with the same sad, boring arguments over and over again.

Yes we know you met a few lame ass 'wiccans' in your time! You have used this analogy hundreds of times!

My question to you is are you a Moron?

Can you see that this proves nothing more than you know a few sad delusional people? {and that they themselves do not know how to do any magick, Which says nothing at all about anyone else!}

Why would you judge a whole field of development on people who barely even qualify to be called members? Wouldn't you want to talk to the PHD's rather than people who may not qualify for preschool?

Can you see the logic to this, or are you a Moron?

Yet you continue, like a Moron, to use this example which means nothing. Why?

Your tone is full of bigotry and condescension based on some stupid conclusions drawn from stupid people.

You have not explored for yourself the results these things bring.

You seem to think you are special because you had experiences that effected others in your family, Many many people have had these kind of experiences. Some from things like Reiki! You are not the only person who has had 'real' experiences!

You also seem to think that because you love mo pai and practice tummo, and strap a wire to your perenium that you are scientifically above everyone else.

You are not. In fact your scientific logic is quite faulty, as i am pointing out.

Millions of monks practice Tummo, along side practices which are Identical to those in magick, and even some very much like reiki. Infact my friends learnt the White Tara healing system directly from the Gyuoto Monks, and it was almost exactly the same. It began with an empowerment, then they learnt a mantra and some symbols, and then they put their hands on the body. Then they were told that they would get better and better with practice, and that further initiations are be available once their skills had improved. Which is the way Reiki is supposed to progress. {before cash hungry westerners decided to offer reiki 1, 2, and Master level, all in a weekend and other crazy western shenanigans... }

I am calling you out MPG. I challenge you too an Impeccability trial!

I know you like to think of yourself as scientifically savy, and rational and sceptical, so prove it!

Never use that lame description of your delusional basement Wiccan again.

It is a low dirty tactic. It is intellectually dishonest. No actual scientist would use that case as data, let alone as 'proof' of something. So you stop using it as well.

Skeptics as well, would go to the allegedly 'good' sources to investigate a claim. They would just laugh at sad people in a basement.

If you wan't to consider yourself as belonging to these 'esteemed' crowds, then you better learn what qualifies as a scientific opinion.

so, If you are not a moron, and are capable of rationality, I demand, in the name of Honesty, that you start showing higher standards in your case studies, and in your language.

You also regularly claim things untrue because you in all your Majesticness have not seen it produce results!

Please! Who the fuck do you think you are? A Psi investigation team? Where have you even looked? If you make statements like that in the future, I demand that you qualify it by exactly what studies or experiments you did on the subject that lead to your Holy conclusions.

Edited October 19, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

Of all the data I can find in pubmed's journals on reiki not one shows anything interesting at all.

 

I am sure at least some of those hundreds of studies employed "real" reiki masters.

 

If there is any good evidence anywhere for reiki, I am honestly unaware of it.

 

 

I have heard of no magick users getting real tangible results from their practice.

 

 

 

That isn't Reiki. That is however a good example of what has generally given people misconceptions about it. I didn't bother to watch the other videos. I assume they are of the same nature. They prove what? That someone on the internet can post a video claiming to be a Reiki master? Good show. When I showed you that your "evidence" did not prove your case you found examples of people claiming to do Reiki to paint the whole art as a sham.

This is not even remotely accurate. I'm not going to bother trying to dissuade you from your conceptions of these things at this point. You claimed that these practices were for lazy people. When I refute that, rather than support your original argument you just claim that they serve to do nothing meaningful. I'm not going to sit here and continue to play defense against your misconceptions of these things. Good luck, have fun. I'm out.

Edited October 19, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Protector]

If reiki has nothing to do with Shugendo then it's crap

[Aetherous]

If reiki has nothing to do with Shugendo then it's crap

 

Shugendo has its own methods of healing, some of which can be seen in the documentary, Shugendo Now. I'm sure they could do something like reiki, but how do you know that it's part of their training?

 

This is the only real source of that information in a book or online, that I'm aware of. Coming from a Shingon perspective, which is closely related.

 

If you're going to learn Shugendo for real, you have to go to Japan and walk the mountains for years and pass all sorts of tests. The next closest thing in terms of similar training would be Tendai, in the USA, or Japan.

[Seth Ananda]

Seth,

 

Some practices get real results, others don't.

 

If you aren't getting real results, you are playing make believe.

 

You know playing make believe isn't so bad, I mean if you enjoy it go for it. It's like a real life LARP, except you are really really pretending to not pretend you are pretending.

 

Sorry if my view offends you, it isn't a personal attack on you.

 

I just dislike practices that don't get results and I think they are a waste of time and effort.

 

I guess we can agree to disagree on that point.

 

 

P.S.

 

The wiccan story stays. The wiccans I know in real life are like newage Juggalos.

 

Well how scientific of you!

 

Who would have thought you would so gallantly rise to the challenge of analysing your own totally unscientific and unskeptical assertions and faulty logic systems.

 

I have told you some of the results i have got with healing sciences. One includes helping a man become HIV negative. He had got triple opinions from the medical establishment. That is three different confirmations that he was HIV positive.

 

His cure was written off as a case of repeated medical misdiagnosis.

 

But you only care about your little theories, not about actual cases.

 

You sir are despicable. You are an attention sponge. You show the worst understanding of what you call scientific scepticism.

 

And you refuse to enter honest dialogue. You are a condescending coward and a troll. You should be ashamed of your self.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Sadly, I am not. I guess we can agree to disagree on everything else.

 

 

 

 

 

You should be ashamed of your self.

Edited October 20, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Seth Ananda]

MPG.

Here is your chance to show us you are capable of Honest analysis.

 

Please explain a few things step by step:

 

1.) Exactly how does your knowing 1 delusional Wiccan, conclusively demonstrate that the entire field of Magick is entirely lacking of any form of results, outside of deluded Magicians Imaginations?

 

2.) How do you KNOW with absolute certainty that Reiki is never, under any circumstance, anything but Placebo?

 

If your answer is some links to tests someone else ran, then How do you know with absolute 100% certainty that the tests were fair to the practitioners, or that they used skilled practitioners, or that they were reasonably set up to begin with?

 

3.) How do you KNOW that the only results worth mentioning are those of a telekinetic or psychic heat variety?

Please elaborate further on this one, and explain how you are 100% certain that if a person cant do these two things, that they have been wasting your time?

 

4.) How do you Know with absolute certainty that there is no such thing as once off effects, that can not be studied scientifically, due to the random nature of their manifestations. {such as from results magick which works over time, or spirit medium phenomona}

 

5.) How you know with 100% certainty that your wiring up of your pc represents one of the only real practices out side of Tummo and mo pai?

 

 

And for me personally, I want to know why you come to TTBs?

All you seem to do is proselytize about how you are the only person who does any real practice, that gets results, and then you troll threads shitting on everyone else's theories or understandings, and +1ing your own posts... You have your own forum for that.

 

And finally, since you are the only one here doing any real practice that gets results, well please show us these results!

 

A simple you tube Vid will sufice.

[Seth Ananda]

Shugendo has its own methods of healing, some of which can be seen in the documentary, Shugendo Now. I'm sure they could do something like reiki, but how do you know that it's part of their training?

 

This is the only real source of that information in a book or online, that I'm aware of. Coming from a Shingon perspective, which is closely related.

 

If you're going to learn Shugendo for real, you have to go to Japan and walk the mountains for years and pass all sorts of tests. The next closest thing in terms of similar training would be Tendai, in the USA, or Japan.

thanks Scotty, that docco looks great

[theurgy]

 

 

[Thunder_Gooch]

Seth,

 

First off I suggest if you want to keep arguing that we move it to the pit, as a matter of fact if these answers don't satisfy you, please create a new thread in the pit and send me a PM to discuss it further with you.

 

 

1.

I know a lot of them.

 

No magick users anywhere that I have ever even heard rumors of have developed real abilities.

 

The most famous magick user in recent history, Aleister Crowley developed no abilities but being able to make someone trip by synching his footsteps with theirs. (supposedly)

 

Who knows maybe somewhere someone figured out how to get a broom stick to fly, and the use the seal of Solomon to conjure demons to feast on the souls of their adversaries and raise an army of undead skeleton knights and win the lottery, and convert their parents basement into a luxury condo all in one go.

 

I won't hold my breath though waiting to find an example of that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2.

There is no good hard (non-anecdotal) evidence anywhere to support that it does that I am aware of.

 

Maybe there are Reiki masters who can shoot holographic quantum rainbow beams out of their fingertips, I really don't know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3.

That's just my opinion. If you like to use magick or reiki to express yourself artistically hey more power to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4.

See list of big jackpot lottery winners. Cross compare that list with magick users living in their parents basement. See any matches? Nope me neither.

 

See list of magick users living in their parents basement attempting to raise an undead army of skeletons, cross compare that with confirmed attacks of armies of skeletons in recent history. See any matches? Nope me neither.

 

 

 

 

 

 

5.

This question doesn't actually make sense. You are assuming it is some separate practice, it isn't. Meditating while sitting on the earth, or a grounded wire is a requirement to absorb yin chi.

 

Laugh all you want, yes I know it sounds silly. Meditate while sitting in the dirt, or meditate sit on a grounded wire if you want to absorb yin chi. Pick one.

 

You cannot absorb yin chi in sitting on a plastic seat in an airplane, no matter if a guy who wrote 100 books says so or not. You cannot even feel yin chi directly until yin and yang chi have been fused together inside your body.

 

 

 

 

 

 

6.

My main interest in thetaobums is to investigate new neigong teachers, and stay abreast in current information.

 

 

 

 

 

7.

Yes I plan on it, when I complete my training you will be the first person I visit if you wish.

 

 

 

MPG.

Here is your chance to show us you are capable of Honest analysis.

Please explain a few things step by step:

1.) Exactly how does your knowing 1 delusional Wiccan, conclusively demonstrate that the entire field of Magick is entirely lacking of any form of results, outside of deluded Magicians Imaginations?

2.) How do you KNOW with absolute certainty that Reiki is never, under any circumstance, anything but Placebo?

If your answer is some links to tests someone else ran, then How do you know with absolute 100% certainty that the tests were fair to the practitioners, or that they used skilled practitioners, or that they were reasonably set up to begin with?

3.) How do you KNOW that the only results worth mentioning are those of a telekinetic or psychic heat variety?

Please elaborate further on this one, and explain how you are 100% certain that if a person cant do these two things, that they have been wasting your time?

4.) How do you Know with absolute certainty that there is no such thing as once off effects, that can not be studied scientifically, due to the random nature of their manifestations. {such as from results magick which works over time, or spirit medium phenomona}

5.) How you know with 100% certainty that your wiring up of your pc represents one of the only real practices out side of Tummo and mo pai?

And for me personally, I want to know why you come to TTBs?

All you seem to do is proselytize about how you are the only person who does any real practice, that gets results, and then you troll threads shitting on everyone else's theories or understandings, and +1ing your own posts... You have your own forum for that.

And finally, since you are the only one here doing any real practice that gets results, well please show us these results!

A simple you tube Vid will sufice.

Edited October 20, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Aetherous]

Good. Totally just playing around.

[theurgy]

That's more like it. I can feel the healing power of universal laughter and love!

It's as if this thread is working it's magick

[Seth Ananda]

So first I asked: 1.) Exactly how does your knowing 1 delusional Wiccan, conclusively demonstrate that the entire field of Magick is entirely lacking of any form of results, outside of deluded Magicians Imaginations?

Seth,

 

First off I suggest if you want to keep arguing that we move it to the pit, as a matter of fact if these answers don't satisfy you, please create a new thread in the pit and send me a PM to discuss it further with you.

 

 

1.

I know a lot of them.

How many is a lot? Do they all live in their parents basements? Do they all try to summon armies of skeleton Knights?

 

how sure are you that they adequately represent the entire world of Magick practitioners?

 

No magick users anywhere that I have ever even heard rumors of have developed real abilities.

 

The most famous magick user in recent history, Aleister Crowley developed no abilities but being able to make someone trip by synching his footsteps with theirs. (supposedly)

What exactly constitutes a 'real' ability?

And why are you so certain that old A.C. had no other abilities whatsoever?

 

Who knows maybe somewhere someone figured out how to get a broom stick to fly, and the use the seal of Solomon to conjure demons to feast on the souls of their adversaries and raise an army of undead skeleton knights and win the lottery, and convert their parents basement into a luxury condo all in one go.

 

I won't hold my breath though waiting to find an example of that.

I have personally never known anyone to try to conjure an army of undead. Were they fresh out of D&D and decided to try Magick? Its just stupid. And it is stupid to keep using it as an example. no real Magickian anywhere believes he can have skeleton knights. That is just hollywood D&D bs. Cease your misinformation.

 

 

i asked:2.) How do you KNOW with absolute certainty that Reiki is never, under any circumstance, anything but Placebo?

If your answer is some links to tests someone else ran, then How do you know with absolute 100% certainty that the tests were fair to the practitioners, or that they used skilled practitioners, or that they were reasonably set up to begin with?

You replied:

2. There is no good hard (non-anecdotal) evidence anywhere to support that it does that I am aware of.

 

Maybe there are Reiki masters who can shoot holographic quantum rainbow beams out of their fingertips, I really don't know.

Really? How hard have you looked? There have been plenty of tests over the years where a healer kills cancer cells in a test tube or some similar thing. Not to mention all the amazing 'anecdotal' healings millions of people have received sometimes from impossible conditions... but they don't count to you do they... lol.

 

Why are you so certain that anecdotal evidence is not worthy of your time?

 

 

 

 

I asked:

3.) How do you KNOW that the only results worth mentioning are those of a telekinetic or psychic heat variety?

Please elaborate further on this one, and explain how you are 100% certain that if a person cant do these two things, that they have been wasting your time?

your answer:

3.That's just my opinion. If you like to use magick or reiki to express yourself artistically hey more power to you.

 

I just have to laugh at ignorance here. Your 'opinion' here is that 'enlightenment', a sense of deep connection to existence, and many other Siddhis are all just a waste of time!!! Wow!

 

4. See list of big jackpot lottery winners. Cross compare that list with magick users living in their parents basement. See any matches? Nope me neither.

 

See list of magick users living in their parents basement attempting to raise an undead army of skeletons, cross compare that with confirmed attacks of armies of skeletons in recent history. See any matches? Nope me neither.

Well i know people who have used Magick to win amounts between $20.000 {at the casino} and $280,000 in the lottery.

Two of my early teachers bought their house together after doing some ritual and then buying 1 lotto ticket. $150.000!

 

A psychic friend went to sleep worried about his son and his pregnant wife. He woke up from a dream with a string of numbers, that were 'for' his son. next morning he rang his son and told him to by a ticket with the numbers. His son bought 2 tickets in whatever it was, and won $140.000 on each. that's Two hundred and eighty thousand!

 

But wait, oh.. shit... anecdotal evidence. oh well. that stuff is all bull shit then! lol

 

And your Skeleton example is stupid, and a deliberate attempt to belittle people who practice something you don't understand.

 

You keep saying you are not trying to be personally offensive, but you are lying. This is exactly what you are doing with the undead skeleton analogy.

You are trying to lump all practitioners of Magick [which includes me] in with the retard you met in his parents basement. So you are basically saying All practitioners are like that one practitioner, by association.

 

As a careful and intelligent practitioner of Magick, this is highly disrespectful and insulting.

 

 

 

7.Yes I plan on it, when I complete my training you will be the first person I visit if you wish.

 

Well I look forward to that. But how long have you been practising? How much daily practice do you do? Surely you can do something by now? When will you finish your training? Is it ok for you to not have abilities before you have finished your training?

If that is the case, are others allowed to say they are engaged in real practices, but won't show you what they can do till they have finished their training?

[JohnC]

Damn this thread has degenerated.

 

Mpg, so you shared your opinion. It's cool you have the goals you do, and believe in the practices you do, not everyone will though. Some people think nei gong is bullshit, and reiki is the best.

 

No amount of science/youtubes/whatever will convince either side, any more than they want to believe it.

 

And fuck man, if it leads to people feeling better about themselves, is that so bad?

 

Seth, so you engaged mpg, someone who seems convinced of their ideas, in a debate. Hows that going for you?

 

--

 

Personally, the more I do research in science, the more I think that people will use anything to back up what they already believe and think. Under the guise of 'science, observation, whatever'.

 

Point is, do what your drawn to and fuck the rest.

 

John

Edited October 20, 2012 by JohnC

[Thunder_Gooch]

Seth,

 

My second request to you to move it to the pit if you wish to keep arguing.

 

 

 

How many is a lot?

 

Over 10 personally in real life, 20+ online well enough to know, 100's of others in forums.

 

Do they all live in their parents basements?

 

 

 

Yes, or reasonable facsimiles like their parents garage or grandparents spare bedrooms, etc. etc.

 

 

Do they all try to summon armies of skeleton Knights?

 

 

Yes (or something equally as silly), that is they will this next time if they perfect their spell.

 

 

how sure are you that they adequately represent the entire world of Magick practitioners?

 

VERY. Although I am sure there are probably some upscale members in all communities. Your question is like asking how many members of the KKK are not racist. Maybe some, I dunno but probably not many.

 

What exactly constitutes a 'real' ability?

 

Controlling your immune system (under medical observation), thermoregulation, psychokinesis, pyrokinesis, electrogenesis, becoming a immortal spirit, or virtually anything that can be documented in a lab and might sound interesting.

 

And why are you so certain that old A.C. had no other abilities whatsoever?

 

 

I am not certain. I've just never heard of A.C. having any abilities though, he sure kept it hush hush if he did.

 

 

Continued in another post

Edited October 20, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

 

 

 

Seth Part 2

 

Its just stupid.

 

I concur.

 

no real Magickian anywhere believes he can have skeleton knights.

 

What defines a real Magickian?

 

 

Cease your misinformation.

 

It isn't misinformation.

 

Really? How hard have you looked?

 

I feel I've put more effort into looking for good evidence than any other reasonable person would have.

 

 

 

There have been plenty of tests over the years where a healer kills cancer cells in a test tube or some similar thing.

 

I'd be interested in seeing that information on the abilities of Reiki healers killing cancer cells.

 

Also In vitro results don't matter nearly as much as In vivo.

 

Not to mention all the amazing 'anecdotal' healings millions of people have received sometimes from impossible conditions...

 

 

Which many attribute to prayer, or to copper bracelets, or to magnets, or to even healing via the insane clown posse.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Seth Part 3

 

 

But wait, oh.. shit... anecdotal evidence. oh well. that stuff is all bull shit then! lol

 

Glad we agree.

 

This is exactly what you are doing with the undead skeleton analogy.

 

 

First off it's not an analogy. I know people this retarded. If you don't like necromancy and summoning the dead, then I guess you don't have to engage in that practice. I think it's pretty retarded myself as a practice. I am allowed to say a practice is retarded. Just because you may or may not subscribe to said practice does not mean I am calling you names.

 

 

So you are basically saying All practitioners are like that one practitioner, by association.

 

 

 

Maybe not all no, but the overwhelming majority are yes.

 

 

But how long have you been practising?

 

 

 

5 years.

 

 

How much daily practice do you do?

 

2 hours per day usually, but this is not enough to make significant progress.

Surely you can do something by now?

 

If I can devote 10 hours or more to attaining an extremely deep comatose like state of trance, which requires absolute focus and absolute relaxation and drastically reduced metabolism, then yes I can manifest some interesting effects. Direct cause and effect, stimulus and response effects.

 

I've spoken about this before but I won't be clarifying any further here, as you'll just be saying Bull**** make a youtube video then, apply for the Randi challenge then.

 

What I can manifest isn't ready for prime time, but has been enough to convince skeptics in my personal life.

 

 

When will you finish your training?

 

It will be some time yet.

Edited October 20, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

Seth part 4

 

 

Dear Seth.

 

If you want to continue to argue, I again request we argue in the pit. I think that is most fair to the OP.

 

 

[Thunder_Gooch]

Damn this thread has degenerated.

Mpg, so you shared your opinion. It's cool you have the goals you do, and believe in the practices you do, not everyone will though. Some people think nei gong is bullshit, and reiki is the best.

No amount of science/youtubes/whatever will convince either side, any more than they want to believe it.

And fuck man, if it leads to people feeling better about themselves, is that so bad?

Seth, so you engaged mpg, someone who seems convinced of their ideas, in a debate. Hows that going for you?

--

Personally, the more I do research in science, the more I think that people will use anything to back up what they already believe and think. Under the guise of 'science, observation, whatever'.

Point is, do what your drawn to and fuck the rest.

John

 

I said everything I wanted to say in my first post in the thread, I am only replying to people talking to me or asking questions at this point.

 

I am done as soon as people stop addressing me necessitating a response from me.