Looking For Complete Internal Arts System

[Ace]

Hello All,

 

My name is Marcus and I'm a newbie here. I'm hoping to get some feedback and advice here from people that may have walked the path longer than me. I've done some basic meditation and have dabbled in Taijiquan, Xingyiquan and a little bit of Baguazhang in the past, but at this point I'd like to stop dabbling and start seriously applying myself to internal practices. That being the case, I'm looking for a complete Internal Martial Arts system to delve into and commit to going as deep as I can with it.

 

I should probably define what I mean by "complete." For my purposes, "complete" means that the system will have a strong combat training component...will train me in chi cultivation for health and martial use...and also has a spiritual cultivation side to it.

 

This probably all sounds like a tall order..and it may very well be. Right now I have the opportunity to train with a Wu Taijiquan locally, but a frank conversation with the instructor tells me that the training will not go too far beyond just learning the long form.

 

My thought was that I could learn some basic Taiji, Bagua or Xingyi locally and then hopefully do some distance training with a teacher that could teach all of the elements I'm looking for along with periodic trips to that teacher.

 

One suggestion I've gotten is to delve into Bruce K Frantzis' Bagua Mastery Program, his Xingyi program or an upcoming Tai Chi Mastery program and overlay that material over what i can do here locally. I'd love to hear any comments on this from people who might be familair with that material. I do have BK Frantzis' Intenal martial Arts book from a few years ago and I found it helpful.

 

Other than that, I was advised to look at Richard Clear's Tai Chi material and possibly do the same with that option.

 

I'm open to any suggestions from the floor. And if anyone knows of any teacher/system in Texas, I'd love to check that out. I'm just a bit north of Dallas-Ft Worth. Thanks in advance for any help or constructive opinions.

[GreytoWhite]

http://www.theplanocenterforlifeenrichment.com

[Ace]

Thanks for the link, MithShrike. I believe I've come across this school in my local searches, but I'll give it a deeper look. Thanks for replying.

 

Anyone else have suggestions/opinions?

[GreytoWhite]

http://www.southernskykungfu.com

 

http://shenmentao.org/

[ChiDragon]

Hi, Marcus....

First of all, don't get involve with too many styles all at once.

 

For internal arts, your best bit is too stick with Wu Taijiquan and then worry about the marital part later. The long form will take you a long way.

 

This is not the case in the more the merrier. The WU Taijiquan is the best practice that will lead you where you wanted to go. It has the combination of internal and martial arts hidden in the system. You just need to put your heart into cultivation for a long time before you can realize what it can do for you. Please keep in mind, internal arts cannot be accomplished in days but years.

[GrandmasterP]

For a young man maybe going the other way from martial taijiquan TO TaiChi . Thing is the martial schools in UK anyway tend to be different to and separate from the internal classes [those do tend to be classes as opposed to 'schools'] Taijiquan IMHO is a kick ass external form. Personally for internal I'm a QiGong guy but I'm old, slow and very lazy.

[Mal]

 

One suggestion I've gotten is to delve into Bruce K Frantzis' Bagua Mastery Program, his Xingyi program or an upcoming Tai Chi Mastery program and overlay that material over what i can do here locally. I'd love to hear any comments on this from people who might be familair with that material.

 

I'm also interested in the upcoming Tai Chi Mastery program, unfortunately I have not been able to identify anyone who has has an actual improvement in "practical skill" from the previous Bagua Mastery Program (lots of infomation in it though)

 

I would LOVE to hear from someone who was able to benefit from the Bagua Mastery Program

[spiraltao]

I haven't taken the bagua mastery program, but have benefited from Baguazhang!!!! oh me brothers and only friends, i attest to it being the art of longevity and mobility, this is coming from a man who lacked mobility. I am speaking of ME, MOI. I could have certainly endangered my longevity if had I stayed on the path of ego and excess and not aware of "oneness" and the "integral way."

 

In short, it changed my life, keeps my liver problems in check and i got arthritis in hips, which baguazhang also keeps in check.

 

Baguazhang includes everything under the sun, it would take a lifetime to master it, same with Tai Chi and Xing Yi. So pick your TAO.

 

Bagua started off as the most UNAPEALING to me, that changed when I learned just a few techniques.

 

 

The big thing is finding a teacher who knows his stuff! I am lucky to have sifu here in KY.

 

 

I could only VOUCH for the DGS guys as I have shared a viewing of one of their DVDs and man was it deep! I can vouch for Mike Lomax for a complete Qi Gong and beyond system, just no martial parts.

 

Hope this helped.

[PLB]

I probably have not "walked the path" much longer than you but probably not a lot less. So I offer the following only as a fellow seeker, not as someone who knows the answer to your question.

Finding all that one seeks may not come from one source. I practice Yang Cheng Fu's 108 and my teacher is good and helpful. But my desire to concentrate on the separation of jings and pulling silk has lead me to other sources and teachers as well. It would be great if I had a teacher who was totally in tune with my practice. In the meantime, I figure I better be in tune with my practice.

To mangle TS Eliot, you are the system, while the system lasts.

[Ace]

I'm also interested in the upcoming Tai Chi Mastery program, unfortunately I have not been able to identify anyone who has has an actual improvement in "practical skill" from the previous Bagua Mastery Program (lots of infomation in it though)

 

I would LOVE to hear from someone who was able to benefit from the Bagua Mastery Program

 

 

I echo these thoughts. I'd like to see if there's anyone that has actually developed anything from these Mastery programs (the Bagua, i suppose as the Tai Chi program is not out yet). I've gotten some mixed reviews on the value of Frantzis' material. My original thought was to train in Taijiqua/Bagauazhang or Xingyiquan locally and use one or more of these Mastery programs to deepen my practice, but I don't know how valid that idea might be.

 

 

From what I've seen, Ricahrd Clear seems to have some very good distance trainng material and I'm looking at that as well.

 

I have also run across Yuanming Zhang's system. Does anyone have some real expereince with any of the above? I think one of the things I'm looking fro is not only "proof" that the teacher or system has "the goods" but that they are able to trnsmit/teach "the goods" to the student.

[GrandmasterP]

Just saw your location Marcus.

Grandmaster Johnny Lee was in Dallas area.

He's the dog's proverbials for Pa-Kua (Martial Taijiquan for 'less-than-gentlemen').

Seriously good teacher.

[ShaolinDiva]

Hi,

 

I've have been doing martial arts for the last 15 years and now do Tai Chi in the last couple of years. Its harder for me to actually do the Yang style Tai chi because its so slow. Chen style Tai chi forms are a cross between yang slower movements with some harder moves as in kung fu. Authentic Chen style shifus (masters) are harder to find .

 

Tai Chi is the internal energy and martial arts is the external energy. Coordinate your movements with your mind - "shen" and physical body - allow that energy (Qi )to flow through your meridians and sinew (tendon/ligament) channels is what gets your body to become a whole system of power. To exert the qi- energy at the very moment that you need it brings you the power of true exertion - to bring the internal energy from your dantien (your lower abdomen- the source of all of your original qi ) through your meridians to the strike of a kick or punches is what determines how hard the blow is -- that takes a lot of practice- years ... Therefore meditation is very important when practicing martial arts. You can become a walking force of qi energy if you practice

accordingly. However, not all martial arts styles uses the same concept. You have to find the right master/teacher as well .

[Basher]

To paraphrase one of my Instructors favourite sayings.....

"Without the correct Intent, Technique & Energy you are just waving your arms about in the air !"

[寒月 Hanyue]

but at this point I'd like to stop dabbling and start seriously applying myself to internal practices. That being the case, I'm looking for a complete Internal Martial Arts system to delve into and commit to going as deep as I can with it.

 

I should probably define what I mean by "complete." For my purposes, "complete" means that the system will have a strong combat training component...will train me in chi cultivation for health and martial use...and also has a spiritual cultivation side to it.

 

This probably all sounds like a tall order..

 

Yes it is a tall order

 

Most that can fight, do not have any depth in meditation/spirituality, and vice versa (despite what their marketting will tell you!!).

 

If you REALLY want this, be prepared to travel, period. Then find a teacher/lineage who is genuiinely respected by their peers. Not by noobs or wannabes, but by their peers. Caveat emptor, always.

 

Training in person for a martial art is kinda a prerequisite, I don't care how much info or video is available!

 

Bruce likes coming out with packages, but it is always fun meeting people who have been teaching themselves compared to actually learning it in person, HINT We easily fool ourselves, even when there is a teacher present . But some people like money and others like information so...

 

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

I'm also interested in the upcoming Tai Chi Mastery program...

 

I would LOVE to hear from someone who was able to benefit from the Bagua Mastery Program

 

I echo these thoughts. I'd like to see if there's anyone that has actually developed anything from these Mastery programs... I've gotten some mixed reviews on the value of Frantzis' material.

 

There, as always with Bruce, is a MASSIVE amount of info. Sometimes overwhelming amount. I have seen bits and pieces of the various programs Bruce has been releasing.

 

All I'll say is good luck to those only learning from them and not with a teacher under bruce at the same time!! There are very mis-leading things going on in some videos that will give a noobie to Bruce's stuff the wrong impression or understanding. If you already know his neigong, you may fair better. By that I mean, learned it in person.

 

I've heard mixed perspectives on Bruce's martial mastery

I've heard mixed perspectives on Bruce's meditation and spiritual accomplishment

I've only ever heard good things about Bruce's neigong.

 

Liu told Bruce, "you become what you practice", looking at Bruce you have to wonder sometimes.

 

I could only VOUCH for the DGS guys as I have shared a viewing of one of their DVDs and man was it deep! I can vouch for Mike Lomax for a complete Qi Gong and beyond system, just no martial parts.

 

Hope this helped.

 

The Dragongate sanctuary (DGS) bagua dvds are pretty awesome in their neigong content, but I've only watched as i don't do bagua.

 

Master Hu taught Stillness-Movement neigong in his medical clinic, he also taught it to his Xingyi quan students. There is little complexity in what S-M neigong can be done along with. Ya Mu (M. Lomax) is a lineage holder of Master Hu's system.

 

Best,

[Ace]

Yes it is a tall order

 

Most that can fight, do not have any depth in meditation/spirituality, and vice versa (despite what their marketting will tell you!!).

 

If you REALLY want this, be prepared to travel, period. Then find a teacher/lineage who is genuiinely respected by their peers. Not by noobs or wannabes, but by their peers. Caveat emptor, always.

 

Training in person for a martial art is kinda a prerequisite, I don't care how much info or video is available!

 

Bruce likes coming out with packages, but it is always fun meeting people who have been teaching themselves compared to actually learning it in person, HINT We easily fool ourselves, even when there is a teacher present . But some people like money and others like information so...

 

 

Best,

 

 

I appreciate the feedback, Snowmonki (and others as well). Do you have some examples of teachers/lineages "that are respected by their peers" that you'd be willing to share?

[thelerner]

There are a number of great teachers a thousand miles from you but so what. Even if they have videos & books its still a very limited path. I think you have to look hard at whats available near you, within an hour or so. I admire your want for a holistic art that hits meditation, martial arts, energy cultivation etc., but I think true growth is going to take a live teacher.

 

Look with an open mind and while you may not find a world famous master, you'll find an excellent teacher (who may teach at a community center) who'll set you on a path.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Sorry, not intentionally being vague hehe

 

I do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of who there is. I know who I would recommend based on one, maybe two of the three things you seek. As I said, some will sell you that have all three, but when you look at the person what do they embody? What are they like? What are their students like? Learning to discern truth from falsehood is hard enough in one let alone in all three aspects.

 

There are massive differences as what people accept as being 'good' martial art, or anything else. And I'm not sure of your standards.

 

Personally I feel that 'complete' systems are a kind of myth, you do realise that most of the time the only person taught the full art was the lineage holder. Not to withhold information, but simply because each area is such a deep study. That is why there are few who genuinely have such deep knowledge of each aspect and how they inter-relate. So as an example, to at least provide a bench mark;

 

Master Feng Zhiqiang, unfortunately he died earlier this year. However he was well respected for all that you seek, and while not all disciples or students are created equally, looking into those teaching his system is probably worth it.

 

Sam FS Chin, I have not met someone who, with a genuine heart, exemplifies all that you seek, as much as Sam. He is one of the few who can actually demonstrate 'unusual' power so many others speak of, not only that, he'll show you how he does it. His understanding and embodiment of both Daoist and Ch'an Buddhist philosophy is also very deep. His family art is a genuine path into Dao.

 

Everyone else I can think of right now is either a fighter or a lover, even if they occasionally dabble on the other side and dabbling hardly a "complete" system makes...

 

If I think of any more I'll post them.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

There are a number of great teachers a thousand miles from you but so what. Even if they have videos & books its still a very limited path. I think you have to look hard at whats available near you, within an hour or so. I admire your want for a holistic art that hits meditation, martial arts, energy cultivation etc., but I think true growth is going to take a live teacher.

 

Look with an open mind and while you may not find a world famous master, you'll find an excellent teacher (who may teach at a community center) who'll set you on a path.

 

I agree completely. This is the best way forward. Find a good teacher of one aspect that you can put in time and effort with. Begin your path with that, who knows where it may lead and what doors will open as you proceed.

 

You may surprise your self, it's how I ended up studying with my teachers

 

Best,

[Ace]

I agree completely. This is the best way forward. Find a good teacher of one aspect that you can put in time and effort with. Begin your path with that, who knows where it may lead and what doors will open as you proceed.

 

You may surprise your self, it's how I ended up studying with my teachers

 

Best,

 

 

I definitely agree that I need face to face with alive teacher. Locally, I was going to start with a Wu Taijiquan teacher. The idea behind gathering material from other sources that I was asking about was to "overlay" that material over what I'd be learning locally and hopefully deepen my practice.

[idquest]

I echo these thoughts. I'd like to see if there's anyone that has actually developed anything from these Mastery programs (the Bagua, i suppose as the Tai Chi program is not out yet). I've gotten some mixed reviews on the value of Frantzis' material. My original thought was to train in Taijiqua/Bagauazhang or Xingyiquan locally and use one or more of these Mastery programs to deepen my practice, but I don't know how valid that idea might be.

You could look at this inexpensive book:

http://www.amazon.com/Internal-Structure-Cloud-Hands-Advanced/dp/1583944486

The author, Robert Tangora, refers to Bruce Frantzis as one of his teachers. The material presented in the book is at about the level you could find in the narrative portion of the Bagua Mastery Program. The Program is much more elaborate and detailed of course.

[Trunk]

I've been looking for several decades and I'm happy with DGS; here's a few links.

DGS Reviews (page I wrote)

Sifu Chris Matsuo TTBs thread

DGS's Dizzying DVD Colllection TTBs thread

 

Teaches healing, martial, spiritual ... often in the same lecture, same technique.

[寒月 Hanyue]

You could look at this inexpensive book:

http://www.amazon.co...d/dp/1583944486

The author, Robert Tangora, refers to Bruce Frantzis as one of his teachers. The material presented in the book is at about the level you could find in the narrative portion of the Bagua Mastery Program. The Program is much more elaborate and detailed of course.

 

I really wouldn't. It's a great book if you are familiar with the material, BUT there are BIG holes in it, and much of it is quite misleading.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

I definitely agree that I need face to face with alive teacher. Locally, I was going to start with a Wu Taijiquan teacher. The idea behind gathering material from other sources that I was asking about was to "overlay" that material over what I'd be learning locally and hopefully deepen my practice.

 

Do you want a "complete" system, or do you simply want to train three things concurrently?

 

If it is the latter, well you don't need to make things so hard on yourself

 

Just find a decent martial line to follow, and a decent spiritual path to follow. Then do so. It's what most people do.

 

A complete and integrated lineage is a different animal. Not better, just a different animal.

 

Best,

[Ace]

Do you want a "complete" system, or do you simply want to train three things concurrently?

 

If it is the latter, well you don't need to make things so hard on yourself

 

Just find a decent martial line to follow, and a decent spiritual path to follow. Then do so. It's what most people do.

 

A complete and integrated lineage is a different animal. Not better, just a different animal.

 

Best,

 

 

A complete system..but if I can't find one that has all "three things" in it, i figured I might have to put it together from separate sources. However, training in a "complete and integrated lineage" would seem to tbe the most efficient way to go about doing that. I'm still searching for exactly that....