Looking For Complete Internal Arts System

[Ace]

I've been looking for several decades and I'm happy with DGS; here's a few links.

DGS Reviews (page I wrote)

Sifu Chris Matsuo TTBs thread

DGS's Dizzying DVD Colllection TTBs thread

 

Teaches healing, martial, spiritual ... often in the same lecture, same technique.

 

Trunk,

 

Thanks for the links. It looks like DGS is not really accepting new students...do you know if thay have any sort of guided distance learning option...or is it just a matter of getting whatever DVDs I can & learning off of those?

[Trunk]

It looks like DGS is not really accepting new students...

If that is the case, it's news to me. If something gave you that impression I suggest that you verify it with Sifu Matsuo directly via e-mail.

do you know if thay have any sort of guided distance learning option...or is it just a matter of getting whatever DVDs I can & learning off of those?

The way to contact Sifu Matsuo (Lao Xie) is directly via e-mail ([email protected]) for advice, guidance, and my impression is that he has genuine teacher ~ student relationships over distance. He has lots of dvds, a person could start at different ones and that can be a little baffling at first. Sifu Matsuo can offer guidance, plus what various people here have said in the previously mentioned links, really helpful. His dvds ... as far as accessible, impressively effective methods and giving the right tips ... he hits more home runs than anyone I've ever seen.

[ralis]

edit

Edited October 21, 2012 by ralis

[Ace]

If that is the case, it's news to me. If something gave you that impression I suggest that you verify it with Sifu Matsuo directly via e-mail.

The way to contact Sifu Matsuo (Lao Xie) is directly via e-mail ([email protected]) for advice, guidance, and my impression is that he has genuine teacher ~ student relationships over distance. He has lots of dvds, a person could start at different ones and that can be a little baffling at first. Sifu Matsuo can offer guidance, plus what various people here have said in the previously mentioned links, really helpful. His dvds ... as far as accessible, impressively effective methods and giving the right tips ... he hits more home runs than anyone I've ever seen.

 

 

On the "Classes" page, it says the following:

Classes

 

Classes are currently closed to the public. Admittance is by invitation or special circumstance only.

Closed door students receive instruction at the temple classes 4-7 days a week.

Closed lineage disciples receive private instruction, knowledge, and personal training, not normally available, in addition to the weekly classes. Closed door lineage disciples have great responsibility and are chosen by the grandmaster and head master. This is based on intelligence, leadership, charisma, and skill as they must melt, drink, digest and emanate the lineage.

 

 

I e-mailed Sifu Matsuo tonight to see if there any other training options. Hopefully, I'll get a reply sometime soon.

[寒月 Hanyue]

A complete system..but if I can't find one that has all "three things" in it, i figured I might have to put it together from separate sources. However, training in a "complete and integrated lineage" would seem to tbe the most efficient way to go about doing that. I'm still searching for exactly that....

 

Then I'll quote myself if I may....

 

... the best way forward. Find a good teacher of one aspect that you can put in time and effort with. Begin your path with that, who knows where it may lead and what doors will open as you proceed.

 

You may surprise your self, it's how I ended up studying with my teachers

 

In my experience some are very lucky and simply begin learning what is on their doorstep, not knowing what it is, and only later find that it is a good lineage and teacher. Often this is all they've ever known. Others spend years, even decades searching out teacher after teacher until they find someone who actually embodies what they seek.

 

Many well known and highly regarded figures in cultivation, when you look at their biographies only found a lineage or teacher later in life after much searching.

 

It shouldn't depress anyone, you simply keep going, one foot infront of the other, one step at a time

 

Best,

[Prince...]

Sam FS Chin, I have not met someone who, with a genuine heart, exemplifies all that you seek, as much as Sam. He is one of the few who can actually demonstrate 'unusual' power so many others speak of, not only that, he'll show you how he does it. His understanding and embodiment of both Daoist and Ch'an Buddhist philosophy is also very deep. His family art is a genuine path into Dao.

 

 

I agree

 

[PLB]

I really wouldn't. It's a great book if you are familiar with the material, BUT there are BIG holes in it, and much of it is quite misleading.

 

Best,

 

Snowmonki,

I have been working at the excercises in Tangora's book since I read it several months ago. The book has helped me a lot.

I never thought of it as a complete explanation of a practice; more of a clarifying discussion of how one element is built from experience with another. But your comment suggests that what is missing could be harmful to a player. I would be interested to hear what you have to say about that.

[寒月 Hanyue]

The book has helped me a lot.

 

Anything, CAN be helpful.

 

But your comment suggests that what is missing could be harmful to a player. I would be interested to hear what you have to say about that.

 

Yes my comment does doesn't it. Tangora has had more than one teacher. What he does and teaches is not simply Bruce's material but informed from all his teachers. Yet it is clear just how much the way he teaches and how he teaches has been influenced by Bruce. I personally don't get some of how he teaches cloud hands in the book as it contradicts the way I've learned it from Bruce, which is odd to me given the indicated sources of info in sections of the book. There are also holes in the presentation of material, and the presentation is such that it is potentially harmful to someone just playing around from the book. In particular the spinal neigong. Learning in person is different, the book as supplementary is great. Take it from me, don't fuck with your spine! If he wanted to present a later layer rather than simply rehash what is already in print, fine. It would simply wash with me better if there was at least a note to say work through exercises A-G in this book first, for example. But it doesn't.

 

There are simply things you want to get going or have going on before you play with certain things. The implications for some neigong layers are more risky than with other layers. Playing with the spine is a risky layer. How well do you KNOW YOUR spine, even long term martial artists or 'qigong' people I've met generally do not.

 

I want to say that all books have holes!. Even Bruce's books have holes, and creates incorrect perceptions. This is why people turn up to teacher trainings having taught themselves from his books, and can't even do the most basic aspects, yet have convinced themselves they can. Getting actual feedback on just what IS or IS NOT happening in your body, and learning to become aware beyond that which you are aware of, is one the fundamental aspects of neigong. It's REALLY hard to do that without a teacher, because the only feedback you have is yourself, and you lie to yourself, your body lies to you all the time.

 

If it didn't and you already had that level of awareness, you don't need the book anyway!

 

I am NOT implying from the above that Tangora's knowledge or ability has holes in it. But a book is a book, and is only a rudimentary snapshot at best. It's tough to decide what to include and what to leave out.

 

As a book that shows an overview of what can be going on in cloud hands great, expecially if it inspires people to seek instruction in these deeper neigong layers. As something to use to teach yourself, well there is reason it is called 'Gateway to ADVANCED taiji'. So when someone wants to teach themselves, no it is certainly NOT a book I recommend.

 

Best,

Edited November 4, 2012 by snowmonki

[GrandmasterP]

Trouble with any book same as with DVDs and online is that the teacher isn't there in the room with you to correct and guide.

 

 

"Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Welcome aboard this UKAir flight to New York.

I'm your pilot for today Captain Tony Bollocks. I learnt how to fly this plane from a handbook"

[PLB]

Snowmonki,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

 

In Tangora's discussion of Bend the Bow, shoot the Arrow, he begins with the same insistence upon caution and the need for a competent instructor that you so elequently expressed. I guess that is another part of the "Advanced" element you pointed to; there are matters being discussed in the book well beyond the fundamentals he also talks about. The way he brings those different levels together is unusual and worthwhile for an 'underguided' student like myself but I take your point that it can be risky and harmful if taken the wrong way or seen as some kind of shortcut.

 

Your comment: "It would simply wash with me better if there was at least a note to say work through exercises A-G in this book first, for example. But it doesn't." is interesting on many levels and I am going to take some time to think about. Among those who have written about these matters who do you see as exemplary in this regard?

 

The book to the side, I welcome any call to be really freaking careful with the spine. If you know any neigong teachers in NYC who won't break my back, I would appreciate the word.

 

sincerely,

PLB

[寒月 Hanyue]

Snowmonki,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

 

In Tangora's discussion of Bend the Bow, shoot the Arrow, he begins with the same insistence upon caution and the need for a competent instructor that you so elequently expressed. I guess that is another part of the "Advanced" element you pointed to; there are matters being discussed in the book well beyond the fundamentals he also talks about. The way he brings those different levels together is unusual and worthwhile for an 'underguided' student like myself but I take your point that it can be risky and harmful if taken the wrong way or seen as some kind of shortcut.

 

Your comment: "It would simply wash with me better if there was at least a note to say work through exercises A-G in this book first, for example. But it doesn't." is interesting on many levels and I am going to take some time to think about. Among those who have written about these matters who do you see as exemplary in this regard?

 

The book to the side, I welcome any call to be really freaking careful with the spine. If you know any neigong teachers in NYC who won't break my back, I would appreciate the word.

 

sincerely,

PLB

 

Neigong is a 'layered' practice. If the layers as well as the whole are understood, each teacher makes a decision on how to layer the material. Nothing is fixed, it is all relative.

 

If a strong young guy who is used to physical work and who has no signs of skeletal alignment problems comes to you, then how or when you layer in certain aspects are VERY different. Than if someone out of shape etc You get the idea. Common sense? You'd like to think so, however having spent a LONG time going to see teachers of martial arts and neigong this rarely happens.

 

When you write a book, you do not know who is going to read it, or how they are going to engage with the material. For this reason Bruce always leaves out any aspects of his neigong he feels may cause harm. That's why you don't have a book on spiralling, or on the layers other than the foundation of spinal neigong. It's a decision. Anyone putting out material publically has to make that decision.

 

Yes Tangora puts a 'don't do this at home' type warning, but everyone knows what those warning mean . And they are ignored more often than not, if even noticed by the zealous readers after the secrets of internal power. IMO the warning is not enough. You have to lay out the progression from 'A', and explain how and why each layer should be in place to further your practice and maintain safety. Not present stuff from 'F' with little nod to what should be in place before it.

 

People always want to try things beyond where they are. Which is fine if under guidance. In fact I advocate it. Neigong is not and should not be attempted as a linear development. It is playing with things just outside of your reach that helps you understand why the previous layers are there and needed. So you can keep cycling through and move forward.

 

Personally, I couldn't help but feel that anyone reading the book, that did not have an awareness of the spinal neigong process would be misled, and potentially hurt themselves.

 

Please know that moving the spine about to improve ROM, as I have seen taught elsewhere as "spinal qigong/neigong" is NOT the same thing. The deep layers being worked with in this spinal neigong have a much stronger effect on your spine, nervous system and everything else.

 

Just to clarify, I am not trying to say spinal neigong has to, and can only be taught in the progression layed out by Bruce. I am saying that when you have a process of development, NOT going through the foundational layers and only presenting stuff from later on can cause confusion and (with something like the spine) may be harmful when you don't know who is going to be playing with it.

 

I want to say, overall I enjoyed the book and liked it, holes aside. As I said ALL books have holes in them, the reader should ALWAYS be dicserning, caveat emptor. No author can lay out everything. Mantak Chia is another author who many have taken pieces of a process out of context, played with it with zealousness and hurt themselves. Readers have to take responsibility, as do authors. It isn't a one way street.

 

As for spinal neigong, I don't know anyone who has written about it. You get basic ROM or stretching exercises, and you get different 'energy' practices. But not spinal neigong which is closer to learning to do cranio-sacral therapy to yourself. Martial artists allude to aspects of it, most demonstrations of layers in qigong are simply awful and not worth mentioning. The closest and safest things I have seen out in the public domain are actually the layers that appear in various 'somatic' disciplines, however extrapolating it out from the rest without knowing which bits would aslo be a tall order. So recommending a book simply for such small tidbits seems redundant too.

 

Best,

Edited November 7, 2012 by snowmonki

[Samoobramba]

IMHO, preaty good IMA systems are from Richard Clear, Bruce Kumar Frantzis, Waysun Liao, and others. They have preaty much material online to study.

[senseless virtue]

On 7/29/2021 at 10:34 PM, Samoobramba said:

preaty good IMA systems are from Richard Clear, Bruce Kumar Frantzis

 

I offer a counterpoint on these two at least: Nope. Better look elsewhere.