No innocent humans on Earth.. even a human child is a murderer..

[SunLover]

There are no innocent humans on this planet. Even a human child who eats meat is a murderer.

 

[adept]

What a ridiculous waste of forum space tulku.

Go and brandish your doomsday, human hating rubbish elsewhere.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Well the child doesn't have much of a choice really?

 

Adults who do eat meat ... are murders yes.

 

Something like 150 billion animals are killed every year for selfish human wants.

 

I doubt anyone he would be so selfish though...

 

everyone here practices compassion etc

 

as that is the spiritual path - the path to freedom.

Edited October 20, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[GrandmasterP]

Yep bit extreme that one SunLover. Murder is taking life with malice aforethought. Kids can't do that.

Also you come across in other posts as a bit bloodthirsty yourself mate if you don't mind me saying so.

As a lifelong veggie I know that people generally enjoy eating the foods their old mum used to make. Good luck to anyone turning veggie. You will eat cheaper than when you bought meat but equal good luck to our chums who like the Dalai Lama enjoy eating meat.

That's why humans have canine and incisor teeth, we're designed to run on multi fuels . It's what comes out the mouth that causes most of the problems not what anyone chooses to pop into it. Better a lamb chop going in than harsh cruel words coming out.

[GrandmasterP]

.

Edited October 20, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[eye_of_the_storm]

I don't think it is a waste of forum space? is there such a thing?

 

It is confronting yes...

 

We have to take responsibility for our actions though.

 

This is called awareness...?

Edited October 21, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[GrandmasterP]

Unless you are a lamb, then any amount of verbal abuse has to be preferable to receiving a dinner invitation to a meal where YOU are to be the main course.

[eye_of_the_storm]

I invite anyone who believes their teeth are designed for hunting and eating meat to go chase down a wild buffalo and bring it down... teeth and hands alone.

 

Verbal abuse doesn't come close to inflicting torturous conditions + murder.

 

Empathy is what it is to be Human(e) // especially in regard to animals. How pathetic for man to kill a lamb....

[Marblehead]

Should I even post to this one?

 

No. I think not.

[GrandmasterP]

Being vegetarian is preferable IMO but it does not in any way make us morally superior to carnivores. Judgementalism is, at best a a blinkered position to take. It is not anyone's fault if they are innocently encultured to behave in certain ways. We may choose not to agree with those ways but it is not reasonable to judge others by our own standards when they are unaware of and may not have had the opportunity to explore those standards for themselves.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Of course vegetarianism is morally superior what else would it be?

 

^ I mean this in the best possible sense also.

 

Just as say a person drops a few books... people walk past and ignore them

 

and another person stops to help.

 

The person who stops to help is morally superior in every sense.

 

@ Viator... using a dictionary to define what is right and wrong for you?

Edited October 20, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[skydog]

hmm

 

How to comment

 

dont agree on judgementalism, preaching etc

 

on the other hand, not eating meat in a while has put me off the idea of it so much, I sort of think like the OP in regards to it, not that I judge anyone but at the same time.

 

I dont see animals as any less "intelligent" than humans are, I could never kill a dog, dogs are beautiful creatures so it is similar to killing another animal.

 

The thing that got me to change was the idea that eating animals is similar to eating their stress hormones as they produce a lot when they are killed in such conditions.

[Fū Yue]

Of course vegetarianism is morally superior what else would it be?

 

^ I mean this in the best possible sense also.

 

@ Viator... using a dictionary to define what is right and wrong for you?

 

 

You're still doing harm to plants. You are essentially eating their loins, have you ever considered how those plants feel about that? If you're going to take the 'morally superior' ground in regard to animals, you also need to do the same in regard to plants, because animals and plants are far more similar than they are different. What makes an animals suffering more valid than a plants? There is no way to escape the fact that we survive by consuming life, and life in turn consumes us.

 

The morally superior ground is to honor the sacrifice of all life for the sake of further living. It is horrible that these animals have to suffer these conditions, and we should all do our best to improve them and start treating them with empathy. We should all be more thankful of these animals, and we should honor their lives and their deaths by treating their meat with respect. We should wean ourselves off of the consumption of another's suffering, and minimalize that as best we can.

 

That doesn't change the fact that we have to eat living things in order to sustain our living bodies. We can't live off of inert things, because they would not have enough energy to sustain us for long periods of time. Even when you are taking in just one breath, you are taking thousands of living creatures into your body. Every time your foot hits the ground, thousands of living creatures die. Your house is built on the bones of our ancestors, the ground underneath our feet is made of their flesh and blood.

[Cheshire Cat]

What is it that disturbs the viewer?

 

Is humans supposed to be so highly deified to give compassionate death to animals?

Humans are hunters. We -as a civilization- are declining and we have no hunters, just butchers.

There is no benefit in eating flesh in this way.

 

It is horrible to eat such things that have lost their natural power: much better to be vegetarians.

[baiqi]

​"You're still doing harm to plants. You are essentially eating their loins, have you ever considered how those plants feel about that?"

 

 

Oh, come on. Not that crappy argument again...

 

- From the purely scientific point of view, plants don't have a nervous system, so they don't feel pain.

- Let us admit that they do, but science cannot know for the moment. If you're an omnivore, you "kill" the animal and the plants that it ate. Not to mention all the trees that must have been cut down in order to grow soya or whatever in the Amazon forest. So if you are vegetarian you are hurting less, that is what matters. You cannot be perfect, but you can be better, that's all.

 

"We -as a civilization- are declining and we have no hunters, just butchers.

There is no benefit in eating flesh in this way.

 

It is horrible to eat such things that have lost their natural power: much better to be vegetarians.

 

Agree.

[thelerner]

Seems a pretty foolish statement. If you truly believe that then I wonder just how chummy you are with murderers? Do you eat with them? Are they your friends? If someone kills off your mom and dad are they really as bad as the kid eating a chicken mcnugget?

 

If you truly can't distinguish ethical levels you're going to be very unhappy in this world.

 

 

And I agree with Baiqi for shooting down the nonsensical argument of plants onpar with with animals as far as feelings thoughts and brains stems . Thats not to say we shouldn't respect plants but lets not move too far from biological reality and anthropomorph them because some joker once wrote a fictional book on it in the 70's.

 

On the third hand I think being a vegetarian morally superior because it tends to cause less pain in the world. I also prefer paper to plastic, but there are times I end up with plastic bags. While I had a nice vegetarian breakfast at lunch I had one small piece of tandoori chicken then lots of great Indian spiced veggies.. and it was all delicious.

 

 

 

P.S. I still have suspicions that SunLover/Tulku is a genius psychology professor who creates these posts to show them to his grad students. Pointing out the Pavlovian flow of reactionary counter arguments that show up from it.

Edited October 20, 2012 by thelerner

[Aetherous]

Judging or condemning people for whatever reason, is also something that makes us less innocent. Probably even more so than eating some mcnuggets...

 

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ (a word for contempt) is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

 

- Matthew 5:21-22, NIV

[GrandmasterP]

There's something in that same Xtian book towards the front where their god tells Adam to eat animals nd that bit is repeated later on where the god shows Peter a blanket load of unclean animals and tells him its OK to eat them. Hence a lo of em eat meat. Now to me that' not the sort of god a veggie would necessarily want to bother with but each to their own.

[Aetherous]

Yes perhaps...I didn't post it to convince people of that religion. I just think it's a valid point that if you're pointing fingers, calling people murderers and guilty, it's not like you're innocent when you do that. Far from it. It's best, for the sake of your heart, not to do that. To just take it easy, accept people, try to help them, be friendly, etc. This is more like a spiritual path.

 

Also, my personal view is to follow science (and what might be our inherent design, or else our evolved design) in what is good or bad for us. Dieticians say that eating some meat is good, especially fish...eating too much can be bad for health. Eating no meat is against how we're designed, because you have to take brewer's yeast to make up for the lack of vitamin B12...and take other things to make up for other nutrients. But you can make it work, and survive as a vegan if you want.

 

I've seen videos of how animals are sometimes killed for our meat, and have been disgusted. I think it should be as ethical as possible...rather than trying to say we should all stop eating meat completely. That's unrealistic.

[thelerner]

How many people are vegetarian in the world? Millions? Tens of millions. Only Google knows the answer.

 

Answers He's given: Hmnn, couple of different answers. I see the number 400 million quite a bit. Interesting this piece which broke it down by country said: "India holds more vegetarians than the rest of the world combined. A 2006 survey by the Hindu newspaper (5) found that 40 percent of the population, or 399 million people, are vegetarians."

 

The problem is people have different definitions and people themselves change. But its clear the number is in 100's of millions. We can thrive as vegetarians and while I think its a morally superior way to eat, it doesn't follow that veggies are more moral then others..cause there's a lot more to morality then what you put in your mouth.

 

I don't 'believe' in the New Testament and think the Matthew quote was written with the thought 'the kingdom of heaven' ie Armageddon was going to happen very soon, ie a paragraphs later someone says hold up I've got to bury my father, the holy reply is 'Don't bother'. When death is eminent its good to get your house in order, but to live a life where thoughts themselves are considered evil and damning is to either live a strictly monastic life or be a hypocrite. While I can admire a monks life, I think the majority should find happiness in and of the world.

[Aetherous]

We can thrive as vegetarians

 

I would not put it like that, when you need to supplement in order to complete your diet. But yeah it's true, vegetarians/vegans/etc can do just as well as anyone else by being careful and adding some things. Listen to the professionals (dieticians, nutritionists, read peer reviewed studies, etc) if you are doing it.

[Seth Ananda]

And don't give me this eating plants is the same as eating animals rubbish.

 

Plants propagation depends a great part on being eaten, and then defecated somewhere else. All that poo helps the seeds grow.

 

Why did fruits evolve to be so delicious? So animals would want to eat them and leave the seeds somewhere else.

 

Every plant is alive in its seeds.

 

 

But subject aside.

Tulku! Get some medication, seek profesional help, something. You are one bitter nasty individual.

That attitude will not help your aspirations.

[skydog]

They say B12 is only thing missing and you an get that in a pill, b12 is only missing due to damaged soil

 

Also there is the myth of protein being neccessary for growth, Im not so sure about that, horses eat hay, but they are extremely muscular.

 

It could be just my believe or a perspective that works for more fear based individuals but the propoganda about meat being neccessary could largely be because so many peoples livelihood is to do with selling animals/you not growing your own food, tons of money is made of this, as is the idea that the more you eat the more energy you have, when often it is the less you eat the more energy you have of course, no one profits of these ideas..

[GrandmasterP]

The UK Vegetarian Society used to be a bit cultish back when I wer a lad. We always had their literature [i was raised by radical veggies and loved the food so still eat it]. The old mag was all lifelong vegetarian this and meat is murder that. This last few years they have actively changed from that to a society that welcomes everybody and seeks to encourage folk to try veggie food rather than beat up carnivores in print. More people in the formerly affluent west are tying veggie meals if ony to save money. Very little IBS in vegetarian India and where you do see it it's invariably a moslem suffering from it and they eat meat.

I reckon anyone cutting back on red meat alone will feel the benefits of doing so pretty quickly. It has to be worth giving a try if only to save a small fortune off you shopping bill each month. Free recipes at Vegetarian Society website.

[GrandmasterP]

.

Edited October 20, 2012 by GrandmasterP