I need some advice fellow bottoms.

[effilang]

Hi bum cheeks and bum chickies,

 

I visited a Buddhist monastery in the UK today with the intention of assessing what they have to offer and a monastic life.

 

Everything in regard to the food and accommodation is way beyond my expectations and to be quite frank, the amenities are almost hotel like.

 

When I initially entered the Abbots room, he gazed at my eyes unflinchingly from my opening the door to sitting down on the chair. I felt like he looked into my soul and his eyes were very magnetizing, but at the same time very calming.

 

The two chairs, mine and his, we're positioned facing each other about less than a meter apart and at first I felt a little uncomfortable to be in that situation immediately with someone I didn't know as it was a ery open and there was no desk or other barrier between us. Long story short. Before I realised I was even thinking that my heart completely opened and I sat front facing him legs un crossed with my palms down on my knees.

 

He was a great guy and we spoke and chatted about different topics on life. He didn't ask me any questions now that I think about it, but I think through the conversation he got to know me and why I was there in the first place.

 

Anyhow. He invited me for dinner with the other monks and nuns and gave me brand new book to read, which I would otherwise have had to buy myself, so that was very nice.

 

I remember sitting down on a cushion for dinner against 3 other monks and nuns and looking down at the plate I saw a piece of pie with some yoghurt on it in a small tea cup sized plate, and I thought to myself how very nice, seems just sufficient.

 

Little did I know that was only desert and soon after one of the other monks came in with a big plate of food. To be quite honest I was full before I finished it, but didn't want to be rude : D

 

Anyway these are all just details of my experience.

 

This is my real question. I'm a Tao bum at heart, mind, practice and scripture.

The mind seal classic, Taoist yoga alchemy and immortality and secret of the golden flower are like my Bibles. They are one of the few works I've found that have such a thorough description (among others) of the alchemical process from a to z, starting with the lower or upper Dan tien and opening the waterwheel to further alchemical work leading to the birth of the eternal soul.

 

It's a to z and in between you have the Dos and don't. These books are gold to me, if I was on a desert island alone, that's what I'd take.

 

My point..... Taoism emphasizes dual cultivation and strives for immortality of the soul, where it can overcome samsara and then you can manifest into whatever physical shape you like, take your personality with you by fusing eternal life and true nature and living as long as heaven an earth, psychic powers and all that jazz.

 

The more I read into Buddhism the less I see about how the soul and body play out under the achievement of permanent nirvana...

 

Does the body dies? Is it forced to dematerialize? Is the nirvana they speak of by achieving the cessation of craving and the avoidance of samsara the immortality of the eternal soul through the birth of the embryo that Taoist speak of?

 

It seems to me (with my limited knowledge of buddhism) that the nirvana is a mental state only? Where are the processes that teach you how to cultivate San bao? Surely if one eradicates cravings the shen will build the qi and the qi will in turn build the jing and the jing will in turn overflow if not lead up the du mai?

 

Do Buddhists just let all these alchemical processes take their course naturally? If so why then are the Taoist so particular about so many details? Starting the fast fire, stopping the fast fire, where to lead qi, where and at what point and for how long to concentrate on at certain points, what to do during and after manifestations of yang shen. Kan and Li. Bathing, washing etc etc etc.

 

I have heard of instances where the heart can be stopped by keeping the intention on the accupoint opposite the heart on the governor channel. I've read of knee problems and paralysis because of inappropriately lead yang chi into the leg meridians through the hui yin. It seems these are all very valid safety and practical pieces of instruction, so how does Buddhism deal with all of this?

 

Is the Buddhist nirvana and triumph over samsara the same as Taoist immortality achieved through the waterwheel and merging of the two back to one and the one back to nothing?

 

Am I better of tattooing these Taoist texts on my ass before I commit to the Buddhist monastery so I can read my instructions at night from the mirror?

 

I have learned a lot from Taoism and appreciate the depth with which Buddhism addresses the workings of the mind and reality as it is. But I don't want to get the short end of the stick.

 

To be clear I'm going to a monastery because I want to pursue immortality through alchemical practice. What's the point otherwise? I'd go on a holiday on a tropical island if not.

 

Why was Buddha constantly having back aches when Taoist transform their bodies into moldable jello and have tendons and bones as flexible as rubber?

 

Can I achieve by practicing the complete Buddhist path the same results as that of traditional Taoist alchemy of the three treasures and how does Buddhism, like Taoist, offer me the comfort that I will know what efforts to activate and cease during the arising of all these complicated energetic alchemical interactions.

 

In short what is the Buddhist equivalent of Taoist yoga alchemy and immortality?

 

sorry for any typos in advance. Typing from mobile.

 

[Apech]

What kind of Buddhists are they? Buddhism isn't a monolith it is a very broad 'church' in the sense that there are forms of Buddhism which engage in energy working a bit like Taoist alchemy and then there are those that don't. As Buddhism moved to different cultures it absorbed many things on the way.

 

... I feel from what you right that you should stick to where your heart is ... i.e. Taoism and treat the Buddhists and friendly cousins that you can hang out with from time to time.

[GrandmasterP]

Yep some Buddhists in UK live like nabobs, others less so. Please say it wasn't a New

Kadampa gaff you went to. Those guys are seriously cultic. You don't really need a monastery to cultivate in at all, they are pretty artificial places on the whole. Some good people but seriously sad , nobody happy ever went on a retreat of whatever duration.

Taoist alchemists on the whole are much the same they just tend to be sad alone rather than in company.

Searching for the meaning of the Tao is just a normal part of life as, should be; cultivation.

There are no answers to your specific questions, never were; never will be, cos nobody knows and anyone tells you otherwise is either deluded or a liar.

Just cultivate, regularly for a long long time, embrace life as it comes and enjoy what happens. It's all a dance, make it a merry one.

You can you know.

Good luck with your journey.

:-)

[effilang]

Hi Apech,

 

They practice Theravada.

I know what you mean, truly, but a good Buddhist monastery is the closest I can get to that type of environment without going to China.

 

I want to incorporate the strengths of both schools of cultivation, but it would be nice to know the goal is the same regardless. Don't wanna be there after 20 years meditating for 5 hours a day with all but a cessation of craving to show of it and certain rebirth into samsara after that. That is if I even get that far.

Edited October 23, 2012 by effilang

[Birch]

Help from Bottom.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure you know what you want to do:-)

 

Xxx

 

K

[Clarity]

Help from Bottom.

 

Shades of the Young Ones! There's nothing quite like British humor.

[Birch]

Well, as long as it's not shades from the ashram;-)

I'd put a deadline on it. I wouldn't sell everything off and if I could, from work, I would take a sabbatical.

Whoever you end up being after your retreat would likely appreciate having a few options when they return.

 

---householder, of this world opinion 2 cts----

[C T]

Hi Effilang... this Theravadin monk's early spiritual fire was stoked when he was given a copy of the DDJ. Sort of reminded me when i read of your recent 'dilemma'. Have a listen to his story...

 

[forestofclarity]

Why not share your concerns with the abbott?

[Jetsun]

Nan Huai Chin is the guy who seems to understand better than anyone where Buddhism and Taoism meet, how mind meditation and Samadhi affects your qi and channels, so he might be worth looking up.

 

My opinion is that they both lead to the same place, yet I see more evidence Buddhism brings results, but Taoists are better at keeping the body healthy so if you end up going down the Buddhist route supplement it with physical exercise and labor to maintain the body.

[joeblast]

My question is, would there be anything about the monastery that would prevent you from cultivating as you see fit, or would it be structured in such a manner that you'd basically have to follow their cultivation patterns? Is this for the "space" (in various forms of the term) and freedom from other chores, distractions and such, or is there something else? Either path will be as empty or full as you perceive it, I think. Good luck in whichever path you take, brother

[idiot_stimpy]

 

 

In short what is the Buddhist equivalent of Taoist yoga alchemy and immortality?

 

 

 

 

Rainbow Body?

[寒月 Hanyue]

There is no absolute direct correlation that you can intellectually draw between Daoist alchemy and Buddhism. Trying to fit terms, descriptions, or methods into each other, will have you going in circles more than likely.

 

However, the idea of 'Dual' cultivation in certain forms of "Daoism" has always been understood as pursuing a deep understanding and practice of BOTH Daoism and Buddhism. There are many many figures who have been highly regarded and attained much in their life time who took the time to deeply pursue both paths. They saw no conflict and obviously benefitted from the practice of both paths. These are people from a long time ago and more recently, look at, Hakuin, Liu Huayang, Liu Hong Jieh, Lu Kuanyu, Hu Yaozhen, Nan Huai Chin, to give a snapshot of people from a variety of angles.

 

I don't think trying to 'DO' both at the same time, is necessarilly a good idea. However allowing yourself to swim in the waters of one for a time, does not mean you cannot swim elsewhere at another time.

 

I agree with GMP, you don't need a monestary, but deciding to spend some time there is not a bad thing either, it's an individual choice. I also agree with Jetsun, probably the most accessible and easiest commentator on Buddhism-Daoism is the later Master Nan.

 

Best,

 

P.s. I'm with GMP, and I'm glad its not New kadampa!

[Practitioner]

The school which seems to emphasize the oneness of both Buddhist and Taoist teachings is the Wu Liu Pai. Their school to my understanding was formed through a fusion of different teachers who were both Buddhist and Taoist, and they emphasized overtly that the path of which that of an Immortal and a Buddha takes are the same, just with different focuses and emphases, and more important;y, terminologies which express the same things through seemingly different words, on the process of self-cultivation.

 

They seem like a very interesting school, as it is the first one which seems to proclaim an overt fusion and oneness of both Taoism and Buddhism, and actually has some kind of history going back in time unlike a lot of so-called lineages today. I do not understand though how they attempt to complete any kind of alchemical conversion though, when their school seems to have a strong disdain for any form of sitting meditation. They love to talk about how other school's alchemy is false and leads only down the path of extinguishing jing and so on, even achieving the water wheel and so on to them is "destroying one's essence" supposedly.

 

They do not seem to want to openly share their practices and techniques, which prevents us from having a look to see if they are just doing some garden-variety qigong (like a million other groups) or something extremely profound like how Taoist Yoga was made. What I do know is that they look down on sitting meditation and also, other schools.

 

The sect has me a bit confused to say the least, as their group and their texts do emphasize immortality, but whether at all they have any notable practitioners who have accomplished anything is something we can't know. What I do know is that they, like the Longmen, emphasize the union of Xing with Ming to achieve their ends, but the Longmen do not seem to hold their view of regarding all sitting neidan as self-destruction, or that 99% of all other school as "false".

 

Just rambling on here, my apologies if there is lack of coherent thought.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Practitioner

[adept]

They practice Theravada.

 

Was it Ajahn Munindo by any chance ?

[effilang]

 

 

 

Rainbow Body?

 

I think that might be it, but are there any supporting texts that describe it with as much detail?

I would love to get my hands on this.

[Aetherous]

On the surface, Buddhist and Taoist energetics can seem similar enough. Buddhists do breathing, and use the three dantien usually as well...at least the Tibetan ones do. Theravadans might focus on the breath leading to jhana...this will also cultivate the energy (very firey awakening). But the two traditions are far from similar IMO. In comparison to all Buddhist ones, Taoist is focused on longevity of the body...as well as the entire vibe and the teachings of Taoism in comparison to Buddhism. In those aspects, it's something that is so different.

 

However, in the end result, it may very well be the same phenomenon...direct realization that form is emptiness and emptiness is form...appearance of rainbow body...transmuting the body into spirit immortal...how can we say these are different? Some say they are, and some say they aren't. Direct experience, rather than blind faith, should determine the truth.

[Creation]

Possessing an eternal form is not a goal of Theravada practice because Nirvana is beyond any form. In Taoist terms, cultivation of mind is emphasized, and cultivation of life is not addressed at all.

 

The Three Body doctrine, the Bodhisattva vow, and the idea of skillful means provide justification for pursing alchemical work/"cultivation of life" in Mahayana Buddhism, but all these doctrines are absent in Theravada. Even in Mahayana, the cultivation of mind is always first and foremost.

 

At any rate, what were these monks doing eating a big evening meal. Isn't that against the rules for monks?

Edited October 25, 2012 by Creation

[theurgy]

I think that might be it, but are there any supporting texts that describe it with as much detail?

I would love to get my hands on this.

 

 

These books were recommended to me by a Hermetic author who praised them greatly:

 

http://www.padmasambhava.org/cart/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=661&osCsid=d1401de09d42c2ece21bd90c295f3a0e

 

I am ordering them myself.

[effilang]

Double post. Sry.

Edited October 25, 2012 by effilang

[effilang]

Tripple post. Sry.

Edited October 25, 2012 by effilang

[effilang]

Possessing an eternal form is not a goal of Theravada practice because Nirvana is beyond any form. In Taoist terms, cultivation of mind is emphasized, and cultivation of life is not addressed at all.

 

The Three Body doctrine, the Bodhisattva vow, and the idea of skillful means provide justification for pursing alchemical work/"cultivation of life" in Mahayana Buddhism, but all these doctrines are absent in Theravada. Even in Mahayana, the cultivation of mind is always first and foremost.

 

At any rate, what were these monks doing eating a big evening meal. Isn't that against the rules for monks?

 

But the Qi binds the Shen and the Jing together. The jing supports the qi and the qi the shen. This is the fire path, and what most of us practice. The reverse method. The small waterwheel. But as of all dealings under the umbrella of dualism, there is the opposite too, so we have the water path where the shen is nurtured by restraining the eyes and heart and intellectual mind and this in turn builds the qi which nourishes the jing.

 

Buddhism seems to approach things from shen to jing while Taoism mostly from jing to shen, but also both at the same time.

 

If one is on the donkey facing back and the other front are they still both not riding the donkey?

 

If the three treasures interrelate and support each other then are Buddhists simply not ignoring the cultivation of life but still actually achieving it? And if they can achieve what the Taoist does by ignoring it, then what is the benefit of learning all the complicated alchemical instructions of the basic Taoist fire path?

 

Most curious

[effilang]

Quadruple post. Sorry.

Edited October 25, 2012 by effilang

[Apech]

Vajrayana Buddhism has something like cultivation in the yogas of Naropa and the winds, channels and drops ... these are not introduced I think before a lot of preliminary practice. I don't Theravada has this ... it comes from the mix of Buddhism with Bon/shamanism and also some Hindu yoga. Big difference between Tbetan Buddhism as a broad spectrum approach and Hinayana (if I may use that expression). Zen of course is a Taoist/Buddhist thing.

 

I still would say, there is nothing wrong with being influenced by or drawing inspiration from different systems but still remaining true to core practice.

[GrandmasterP]

Jack of all trades is master of none.

You want a well dug find water then dig in the one place.

Anything else and you end up with a farm covered in lots of little craters.

And no water.