I need some advice fellow bottoms.

[Creation]

But the Qi binds the Shen and the Jing together. The jing supports the qi and the qi the shen. This is the fire path, and what most of us practice. The reverse method. The small waterwheel. But as of all dealings under the umbrella of dualism, there is the opposite too, so we have the water path where the shen is nurtured by restraining the eyes and heart and intellectual mind and this in turn builds the qi which nourishes the jing.

 

Buddhism seems to approach things from shen to jing while Taoism mostly from jing to shen, but also both at the same time.

 

If one is on the donkey facing back and the other front are they still both not riding the donkey?

 

If the three treasures interrelate and support each other then are Buddhists simply not ignoring the cultivation of life but still actually achieving it? And if they can achieve what the Taoist does by ignoring it, then what is the benefit of learning all the complicated alchemical instructions of the basic Taoist fire path?

 

Most curious

You whole framework of analysis is that of a Taoist. Buddhism does not just have a different method, but a whole different framework, that developed in a very different place. If you are thinking of joining a Buddhist monastery, it would be most useful to understand the Buddhist framework. In fact, anyone seeking to understand the relationship of the two paths would do well to understand both frameworks. Historically, much confusion has been caused by analyzing one in terms of the framework of the other.

 

One summation of the aim of Theravada practice is to eliminate the 10 fetters which are the cause of rebirth in any of the 31 planes of existence. Looking up those will give you a jump start on the Buddhist framework. What exactly will happen to someone who does this is where differences between Theravada and Mahayana crop up, like the Three Buddha Bodies and the Bodhisattva Path (look up those too). A major Buddhist criticism of Taoism is that it only leads to rebirth in a higher realm, which is still characterized by the 3 marks of existence (look that up), not complete transcendence. Although presumably this criticism does not apply to "dual cultivation" paths that were influenced by Buddhism.

 

Also, if you could point me to a source other than Taomeow that speaks of shen->chi->jing being a valid path of cultivation, I would be much obliged. Even B.K. Frantzis' "Water Method" works jing->chi->shen.

[effilang]

From what I understand, postnatal shen does not support postnatal jing directly, but if the shen is in abundance it will increase chi and when the chi is in abundance it will increase postnatal jing. And on a different layer the postnatal shen nourishes the prenatal shen and the postnatal qi the the prenatal qi and the postnatal jing the prenatal jing.

 

So that's starting from the ldt. Placing the fire of the heart/mind below the cauldron filled with water and to set it to boil through air/breathing in order to generate vapor/qi that rises up the du mai or exists through the genital gate. If

 

In this way the water element of the kidneys stop draining down/out and rises and the fire element of the heart/mind stops rising is to the head to create thoughts and emotions. So Kan and Li switch places and find harmony by supporting each other.

 

Shen, qi, jing is starting with the third eye first until the light of the postnatal shen manifests then bringing it down to the lower Dan tien. So the shen creates qi and the qi jing.

 

Either you start with cultivating xing or ming or both. Some books I've read say only one is enough, others insist that both must be cultivated. Based on San bao theory you cannot disconnect the three treasures unless you're dead or unborn, so if one is abundant it must overflow to the other naturally. It is not possible Imo to cultivate sole shen or solely jing. It goes again the basic cyclic principles of the taiji tu and since our bodies are a product of the five elements which is in turn a product of the yin yang duality then we must function in accordance to that wax and wane and transfer and sublimation of power and efforts.

 

It's the duality of the cultivation paths. Either you start at the udt until postnatal shen is full and manifests the white light (shen vibrates as light) and then bring it down to the lower Dan tien in essence merging nature with life . Or you start at the ldt until postnatal life manifests (heat and vibration/lower frequency) and bringing it up to meet postnatal nature in the udt.

 

Qi is in the middle as water. Whenever I work with the ldt its vibration or heat, with qi its water or electricity with shen its always light.

 

Either way both of these paths, whether you start from jing or from shen both work.

 

 

[GrandmasterP]

Fer goodness sake!

Do you really think this stuff works from reading a book?

That has to be the ultimate Taoist/Buddhist dichotomy.

Buddhism has acres of 'How To' volumes none of which work. Taoism has a few chancers flogging books along the same lines. And those proprietary volumes don't work either.

Finger.... Moon

 

[effilang]

No, I don't think it works from reading books. It works from work and books are a great way to learn how to do the work.

[GrandmasterP]

Well,

... long may the books keep you warm in the monastery bro.

:-)

[effilang]

They have a big library, I'm sure to be very warm

[GrandmasterP]

Such a waste.

Hey ho... Each to his own.

Post if it gets too much and Mrs. GrandmasterP will send you a cake with a file baked in so you can cut through the bars make your escape.

 

[effilang]

Will do.

[Simple_Jack]

Such a waste.

Hey ho... Each to his own.

Post if it gets too much and Mrs. GrandmasterP will send you a cake with a file baked in so you can cut through the bars make your escape.

Oh, shit!

 

Mrs. GrandmasterP!

Where are thee?

This hypocrisy is mocking me!

My escape, contained in a cake;

breaking free, for the life of me!

 

EDIT: from msr to mrs. Damn typo

Edited October 25, 2012 by Simple_Jack

[Apech]

Fer goodness sake!

Do you really think this stuff works from reading a book?

That has to be the ultimate Taoist/Buddhist dichotomy.

Buddhism has acres of 'How To' volumes none of which work. Taoism has a few chancers flogging books along the same lines. And those proprietary volumes don't work either.

Finger.... Moon

 

 

What did the moon ever do ... to get fingered so often?

[C T]

What did the moon ever do ... to get fingered so often?

 

:D

[effilang]

 

 

 

What did the moon ever do ... to get fingered so often?

 

You come across as a desperate girl asking that hahaha.

 

On topic. Thanx to a kind bum, I've found all the answers to the questions I had posed in this thread in a more detailed translation of the hui ming ching. Thanks for everyone's contributions.

[joeblast]

From what I understand, postnatal shen does not support postnatal jing directly, but if the shen is in abundance it will increase chi and when the chi is in abundance it will increase postnatal jing. And on a different layer the postnatal shen nourishes the prenatal shen and the postnatal qi the the prenatal qi and the postnatal jing the prenatal jing.

 

So that's starting from the ldt. Placing the fire of the heart/mind below the cauldron filled with water and to set it to boil through air/breathing in order to generate vapor/qi that rises up the du mai or exists through the genital gate. If

 

In this way the water element of the kidneys stop draining down/out and rises and the fire element of the heart/mind stops rising is to the head to create thoughts and emotions. So Kan and Li switch places and find harmony by supporting each other.

 

Shen, qi, jing is starting with the third eye first until the light of the postnatal shen manifests then bringing it down to the lower Dan tien. So the shen creates qi and the qi jing.

 

Either you start with cultivating xing or ming or both. Some books I've read say only one is enough, others insist that both must be cultivated. Based on San bao theory you cannot disconnect the three treasures unless you're dead or unborn, so if one is abundant it must overflow to the other naturally. It is not possible Imo to cultivate sole shen or solely jing. It goes again the basic cyclic principles of the taiji tu and since our bodies are a product of the five elements which is in turn a product of the yin yang duality then we must function in accordance to that wax and wane and transfer and sublimation of power and efforts.

 

It's the duality of the cultivation paths. Either you start at the udt until postnatal shen is full and manifests the white light (shen vibrates as light) and then bring it down to the lower Dan tien in essence merging nature with life . Or you start at the ldt until postnatal life manifests (heat and vibration/lower frequency) and bringing it up to meet postnatal nature in the udt.

 

Qi is in the middle as water. Whenever I work with the ldt its vibration or heat, with qi its water or electricity with shen its always light.

 

Either way both of these paths, whether you start from jing or from shen both work.

But the Qi binds the Shen and the Jing together. The jing supports the qi and the qi the shen. This is the fire path, and what most of us practice. The reverse method. The small waterwheel. But as of all dealings under the umbrella of dualism, there is the opposite too, so we have the water path where the shen is nurtured by restraining the eyes and heart and intellectual mind and this in turn builds the qi which nourishes the jing.

 

Buddhism seems to approach things from shen to jing while Taoism mostly from jing to shen, but also both at the same time.

 

If one is on the donkey facing back and the other front are they still both not riding the donkey?

 

If the three treasures interrelate and support each other then are Buddhists simply not ignoring the cultivation of life but still actually achieving it? And if they can achieve what the Taoist does by ignoring it, then what is the benefit of learning all the complicated alchemical instructions of the basic Taoist fire path?

 

Most curious

Good stuff, that is my understanding for the most part also. Since humans are reproductive beings, the generative force will consume resources before vitality is created from it - so that reproduction may occur in as many contexts as possible, it is merely a natural failsafe mechanisms for species survival. That's why jing-vitality is only replenished after the generative force is fully restored.

[GrandmasterP]

 

 

 

What did the moon ever do ... to get fingered so often?

..............

Ah silent siren of the night sky.

The moon be a fickle mistress, mistress.

;-)

[Apech]

..............

Ah silent siren of the night sky.

The moon be a fickle mistress, mistress.

;-)

 

Away! away! for I will fly to thee,

Not charioted by Bacchus and his pards,

But on the viewless wings of Poesy,

Though the dull brain perplexes and retards:

Already with thee! tender is the night,

And haply the Queen-Moon is on her throne,

Cluster'd around by all her starry Fays

But here there is no light,

Save what from heaven is with the breezes blown

Through verdurous glooms and winding mossy ways.

[GrandmasterP]

There was a new moon from Darjeeling

Who boarded a bus bound for Ealing.

She read on the door..

Don't sit on the floor

So she rose up and sat on the ceiling.

[Mark Foote]

 

In short what is the Buddhist equivalent of Taoist yoga alchemy and immortality?

 

sorry for any typos in advance. Typing from mobile.

 

"Deliverance from thought without grasping", that from a sermon in the Pali Canon- can't quote chapter and verse right now.

 

Ok, that's just another description Gautama the Buddha gave for something.

 

The Taoist alchemy and immortality concern the phenomena of hypnogogic states, same as the teachings of Gautama the Buddha as reflected in the Pali Canon sermon volumes, same as the teachings of the Gospel of Thomas, same as some of the etchings in stone on the walls of the pyramids. These phenomena are induced by the place of awareness and the occurrence of feeling in response to the necessity of breath; in particular, the sense of the location of awareness in space provided by the vestibular organs has associated with it a sense of gravity (also from organs in the inner ear), and the sense of location and gravity opens an ability to feel according to the necessity of the movement of breath.

 

The eyes have a tight connection with the vestibular organs, but in all of these teachings the proprioceptive sense of location is described, meaning the sense of location as informed by the placement and orientation of the parts of the body. For example, the Gautamid spoke of the feeling of the first meditative state as like a bath attendant who has scattered soap powder in a bronze vessel and sprinkled it lightly with water, who then collects the soap with one hand kneading it until it doesn't ooze. This is an analogy for the sense of the location of awareness which is collected with the occurrence of feeling here and there throughout, and yet the Gautamid stated his own practice before and after enlightenment was "the intent contemplation of in-breaths and out-breaths". The hypnogogic states follow as the sense of location and the ability to feel respond to the necessity of in-breath and out-breath. Volition ceases, first in action of speech, then of body, then of perception and sensation. Deliverance from thought without grasping may ensue!

 

Not what you do; where you are and what you feel in the necessity of breath, the mind free like waking up and falling asleep.

 

Tattoo the books on your backside.

[Mark Foote]

I apologize for writing the above without reading the whole thread. The notions discussed seem real to me as well, the jing-chi-shen trilogy, although I am slow to find their utility in my sitting. I myself feel the tattoo on my backside right before the books aren't important anymore; I mean no harm, you know!

 

I am exploring how the hypnogogic states depend on the necessity of breath, how consciousness takes place spontaneously and the ability to feel opened through the place of occurrence of consciousness becomes the ability to feel the long and short of breath. This is the starting point of the Gautamid's practice, and the close is "relinquishment". No one speaks of his practice because the hypnogogic state depends on freedom in the place of occurrence of consciousness and feeling, both connected with the necessity of breath, and everyone jumps over that to speak of the "long and short" of breath.

 

More exactly, I'm talking about proprioception and the sense of location in space, and how that opens feeling that begins to reveal the necessity in the length of breath. I am cut off from feeling my own necessity until I can relax and let go; Chen Man-Ching the Tai-Chi master taught total relaxation followed by relaxing the chest as the way to start. The state like waking up and falling asleep doesn't depend on what I do, it depends on letting go of mind and body. I do see that a mind in the chest opens feeling in the lower abdomen and lower back, a mind in the lower abdomen and lower back opens feeling in the legs and feet, a mind in the legs and feet opens feeling in the sacrum and spine, a mind in the sacrum and spine opens feeling in the arms and head, and a mind in the arms and head opens feeling at the surface of the skin. Something like that, successive assimilation of proprioception through feeling connected with the sense of location, as a matter of necessity in the particular movement of breath.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Mark Foote

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[GrandmasterP]

Not sure about 'forceful' but sitting on your erse for hours at a stretch simply does not suit most people.

Moving meditation such as TaiChi or QiGong are popular for that very reason.