5 elements in the real world

[Aetherous]

I'm sure others have thought of this...

 

Typically, the 5 elements correlate with the seasons as such:

 

Spring - Wood

Summer - Fire

Late Summer - Earth

Fall - Metal

Winter - Water

 

But consider why leaves appear red just before the fall. Consider that everything is green in the summer...that you work out most often then, using your muscles which relate to the liver...that you take rest in the shade of trees, which are of course wood element...everything flourishes at this time. Consider that in the spring, snow melts into water and there are "april showers", and also some clear blue skies...this is also the time of first growth, which is similar to the function of the water element...the time when apparently everyone in the kingdom is hooking up, sowing seeds, and reproduction is related to kidneys a lot more so than liver. In the winter, everything is white which is the color of metal/lungs...breathing the cold air has an effect on the lungs...changes in temperature greatly affects the lung function according to TCM. So, following nature, I view it more like...

 

Spring - Water

Summer - Wood

Late Summer (leaves change) - Fire

Fall - Earth

Winter - Metal

 

Just an idea. I guess this thread could also serve as a placeholder for other examples of the 5 elements in the real world.

[Protector]

Fall is so metal that leafs turn red to COMBAT TEH FALL!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

[Birch]

Yes if you use the shorthand static term 'elements'. No if you use the dynamic 'process-descriptions' or 'phases'.

 

 

[Aetherous]

What do you mean, K?

[Birch]

Earth as a 'process', 'phase', or (even) 'action' - rotates

Metal - contracts

Water - descends

Wood - expands

Fire- ascends

 

So metal as a material is an expression of the metal phase

Liver as an organ is an expression of the wood phase

Summer as a season is an expression of the fire phase

 

There's a definite expertise to pinning the correct phase definition(s) on anything:-)

After which, things become less random, somewhat predictable - all the stuff people like to define things for, except it seems to be based on observation of things rather than desired properties.

[GrandmasterP]

Way old Grandmaster Chang told it was....

Wood through fire burns to earth

Mine earth for metal

Pure water condenses out of the air onto metal.

Which for some reason was always a highly polished metal mirror.

 

I had no idea then what he was talking about, still don't.

[zanshin]

People were more linked to nature in agricultural societies, spring and fall are when you "work out" and use your muscles the most, summer time to rest and stay cool in heat of day.

Edited October 24, 2012 by zanshin

[GrandmasterP]

And thank goodness for agriculture. We still enjoy the long summer vacation due to the fact that in the old days all hands were needed to help with the harvest so the universities came down for ten weeks. That's one fine old tradition . Long may it continue.

:-)

[Aetherous]

Earth as a 'process', 'phase', or (even) 'action' - rotates

Metal - contracts

Water - descends

Wood - expands

Fire- ascends

 

Even with these phase descriptions, I still don't think it fits the natural seasons so well.

 

Wood expands...in the summer, heat causes the pores to open and our energy to expand.

Fire ascends...like our emotions in seeing the beautiful red, orange and yellow trees.

Earth rotates...in the fall we become aware of the cyclical nature of things by seeing leaves fall from the trees.

Metal contracts...in the winter, the air is cold and contracting...snow and ice are water contracted.

Water descends...kind of like in the spring when there is rain again, where ice and snow melts.

 

Harvesting happens around fall right? If this were earth element (or even phase), it would make much more sense...we're literally gathering the product of the earth.

[Protector]

SCOTTY SHELL!!!!!!!!

 

Stop mixing stuff up, these elemental properties are not given to the seasons because of what's happening during them but because they are part of the cycle.

 

There are even cycles withing cycles and so there are more 5 elements in one season, assigning properties to them will confuse the person who is trying to figure out what is what. Like, people want to warm up during winter but that's because winter is cold.

 

Elements are not assigned by looking at each small thing and figuring out what it is, but at looking at the whole thing. For example to figure out which season is which we can look at our location in comparison to the sun and separate them in five parts. 5 elements are an advanced version of dualities like yin and yang so you could separate seasons into two, when it's warmest and coldest.

We can also look at the trees and how they behave, when they have fruits, when their leafs change, when their leafs come back and when they're just green and stuff. Or we can look at it as a duality, leafs on and leafs off.

[ChiDragon]

The 5 Elements/phases are directional and seasonal according to the concept in the Yi Jing.

 

1. Wood: The plants are abundant in the East because the Sun rises from the east. The plants in the east get the sunlight at the beginning of each day before other parts of the world. Thus Wood was assigned to the East and designated the season as Spring.

 

2. Fire: The Sun is the highest and brightest, at high noon, in the South. Thus Fire was assigned to the South and designated the season as Summer.

 

3. Water: The Water was originated from the melting ice in the North pole. Thus Water was assigned to the North and designated the season as Winter.

 

4. Metal: The metal(copper) was the color of the Sunset in the West and the tree leafs turn yellow in the autumn. Thus Metal was assigned to the West and designated the season as Autumn.

 

5. Soil(earth): The Soil was assigned to the center of all directions signifying that all the seasons begin in the center.

 

 

PS....

All feng shui master do their readings based in these directional assignment and designation.

Edited October 24, 2012 by ChiDragon

[zanshin]

Spring expansion plants explode from seeds and roots, summer ascension sun and rain help crops grow tall, late summer rotation cycle of growth coming to close, fall contraction harvest cut it all down done growing, winter descending left over organic matter decomposes under snow and ice to fertilize ground for next year.

 

 

 

And kids just lose their minds in late spring. Expanding ascending too much energy to be still and focused We need a summer break even if we're not agricultural.

[Aetherous]

Stop mixing stuff up, these elemental properties are not given to the seasons because of what's happening during them but because they are part of the cycle.

 

Well, yeah, but I disagree with that classification. lol

[Birch]

 

 

Well, yeah, but I disagree with that classification. lol

 

I think it's fine to disagree. Is the new attribution 'internally consistent'?

Suddenly the 5E creation and control cycles don't fit each other anymore and people start putting needles in the wrong places:-)

[ChiDragon]

The forbidden city was constructed base on the yin-yang concept of the Yi Jing. There is a Summer Palace built in the north of the forbidden city. It is because North was the coolest and coldest in any season. It was called the Summer Palace because it is the coolest spot in the summer for the emperor to live in. However, In the Winter, the emperor's living quarter will be in the warmest palace in the South.

 

The cold is yin and the warm is yang. Living in the different quarter with respect to the seasons is the application of the yin-yang concept and in harmony with Nature.

Edited October 24, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Aetherous]

I think it's fine to disagree. Is the new attribution 'internally consistent'?

Suddenly the 5E creation and control cycles don't fit each other anymore and people start putting needles in the wrong places:-)

 

Well, looking at the seasons in the real world, the typical format is not consistent. Does it change acupuncture to say that the season of spring is more like water element/phase? Why does the control cycle not fit the "new" paradigm? Everything has simply shifted over one space, just in regard to the seasons.

[GrandmasterP]

Spring expansion plants explode from seeds and roots, summer ascension sun and rain help crops grow tall, late summer rotation cycle of growth coming to close, fall contraction harvest cut it all down done growing, winter descending left over organic matter decomposes under snow and ice to fertilize ground for next year.

 

 

 

And kids just lose their minds in late spring. Expanding ascending too much energy to be still and focused We need a summer break even if we're not agricultural.

 

Some of the kids where I work seem to lose their minds, at least temporarily ; every full moon. You can almost set your watch by the fact that come full moon there will be at least one fight on our usually placid campus.

I shudder to think what they get up to over late spring and summer but thankfully we don't get to see them then cos we are on holiday.

[al.]

Well, looking at the seasons in the real world, the typical format is not consistent. Does it change acupuncture to say that the season of spring is more like water element/phase? Why does the control cycle not fit the "new" paradigm? Everything has simply shifted over one space, just in regard to the seasons.

 

Like Yin and Yang, the elements/phases are best not thought of as definitive but rather as relative. As such, no particular thing can be strictly pinned to one element.... it's more like there are various degrees of resonance that are shared by all things.

 

The five element system is a model of reality constructed through and for human means.... although it cannot be separated entirely from human folly I believe it nevertheless has a truthful basis in the world around us- and the most scientific way to see and understand this is by studying mathematics/numerology, the sacred geometry in nature, and what could be called the 'holographic paradigm'.

 

a

[Walker]

Yes, it is important--even essential--not to take the five phases to literally and attempt to find understanding of them in the physical materials that share their names. The five phases describe states that the one qi of any phenomenon passes through in the cyclical movements of nature that all phenomena share. They describe qi moving from a state of storage (藏 water) to one of growth (生 wood) to one of flourishing (长 fire) to one of returning (收 metal) and back to storage again. Earth provides the center.

 

Here is a tiny image that illustrates what I refer to.

 

 

In this image at the bottom we have north/water/winter/kidney (肾)/storage (藏）

The "left path" is east/wood/spring/liver (肝)/growth (生 as well as, in a sense, 升)

At the top we have the south/fire/summer/heart (心)/flourishing (长)

The "right path" returning back downwards is west/metal/lungs (肺)/returning/collecting (收)

The center which supplies the back movement consists of earth's two aspects, one being to promote upward movement (energetically yang, but associated with the yin 脾脏, called spleen in English) and the other promoting downwards movement (energetically yin but associated with the yang 胃腑, stomach in English).

 

This currently quite popular way of conceiving of the five elements, with earth firmly at the center, is at the center of Qing Dynasty doctor/philosopher 黄元御's works as well as the thought of a number of currently practicing and teaching doctors in China. It actually has its roots in the very ancient He Tu, pictured below:

 

 

Those who like their symbolism and have a bit of Chinese will see the same arrangement rear its head in the next two diagrams:

 

 

 

I think that in the West we are far more accustomed to seeing the five phases arranged in this way:

 

In the above image, as with most depictions of the five phases I've seen in books in English, earth is not depicted at the center, but rather as a part of the cycle playing a role much like that of the other phases. In Chinese medicine theory--as well as other aspects of Chinese thought--when discussing the 相克 and 相生 (how do you say it again... restricting and promoting?) cycles, it is useful to conceive of the five phases in this way. However, if one wants to really understand Daoist and Chinese medicine cosmology, then one also needs to be familiar with arrangements in which earth/yellow/spleen-stomach occupy a central position, because in many discussions of the five phases this layout is what is being referred to.

 

Regarding seasonality, indeed, the season known in English as "late summer" (长夏 in Chinese) is associated with the earth phase. The important thing to consider here is that it marks the break between the end of the "left path" yang seasons of spring and summer and the beginning of the "right path" yin seasons of fall and winter. When yin and yang meet, dampness is produced (阴阳相交为湿); hence dampness is associated with this period of time, even if in fact it may not in terms of humidity levels actually be the dampest time of year in all or even most climates. We are talking more about energy here than actual measurable phenomena--such is always the case with discussion of qi. Also, don't forget that we can talk about the earth season being the final 18 days of each of the four seasons, or we can talk about the four seasons and leave direct discussion of the earth phase out of the picture altogether, because it is merely implied, being simply the pivot around which the seasons revolve. If one reads the Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic 《黄帝内经》, one will find that discussions of the five phases are indeed this varied and multi-layered.

 

Forgive my inelegant translations; these ideas are far more easily expressed and discussed in the Chinese language. Moral of the story: learn Chinese. It ain't that hard, and things are way, way, way clearer when you can refer to the original.

 

Oh, and as usual, I recommend taking what Chi Dragon says with a grain of salt. First things first, the source of water in China is not the North Pole... Aiya, why even get into the rest of it.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Walker

[ChiDragon]

.................

[Aetherous]

The five phases describe states that the one qi of any phenomenon passes through in the cyclical movements of nature that all phenomena share. They describe qi moving from a state of storage (藏 water) to one of growth (生 wood) to one of flourishing (长 fire) to one of returning (收 metal) and back to storage again. Earth provides the center.

 

Thanks for the explanation, Walker. I'm going to have to disagree, still. I think we must find correlation in the real world, otherwise there is no use of the 5Es even existing...the microcosm has an effect on the macrocosm. Your descriptions of the states of qi is technically the most convincing thing so far...but at least personally I don't accept it. I wonder, why are the appearances of the elements in the real world shifted one place over if the supposed states of qi are correct?

[GrandmasterP]

You lost me at...

'Yes it is important...'

Nice pictures though.

[GrandmasterP]

Just a thought here.

Maybe the elements are just metaphors.

Nothing would change if they were and it sure would save a heck of a lot of study.

[ChiDragon]

This currently quite popular way of conceiving of the five elements, with earth firmly at the center, is at the center of Qing Dynasty doctor/philosopher 黄元御's works as well as the thought of a number of currently practicing and teaching doctors in China. It actually has its roots in the very ancient He Tu, pictured below:

 

 

Those who like their symbolism and have a bit of Chinese will see the same arrangement rear its head in the next two diagrams:

 

 

 

I think that in the West we are far more accustomed to seeing the five phases arranged in this way:

 

Oh, and as usual, I recommend taking what Chi Dragon says with a grain of salt. First things first, the source of water in China is not the North Pole... Aiya, why even get into the rest of it.

 

Walker...

 

FYI... All these charts were derived from the Yi Jing. One will not understand them without having a thorough comprehension of the Yi Jing.

[GrandmasterP]

That's me fecked then Sifu.

:-)