5 elements in the real world

[ChiDragon]

 

I had posted my explanation here yesterday but it is gone today. Anyway, I will wait and try again. Maybe the system was not all the way ready yet.

 

Does anybody know how to interpret this TCM chart and would like to give it a try....???

[Walker]

Walker...

 

FYI... All these charts were derived from the Yi Jing. One will not understand them without having a thorough comprehension of the Yi Jing.

 

An interesting interpretation, considering that the most commonly accepted history is that the He Tu-河图 predates the Luo Shu-洛书, from which the bagua-八卦 is derived.

 

In light of the fact that the 64 hexagrams of the Yi Jing 易经 are derived from the eight trigrams of the bagua, it would seem that you have your history backwards. Even if one accepts that the He Tu chart was introduced in the Yi Jing, I don't see how understanding the Yi Jing is necessary to understanding the He Tu. Perhaps you can elucidate your theory.

 

Effectively understanding the five phases, furthermore, does not require one to be versed in the Yi Jing. However, speaking as a person who has not studied the Yi Jing, I imagine it could help.

[GrandmasterP]

That pentacle diagram is exactly the same as a logic frame I tried to paste elsewhere, it's from our Math Inst and the super string chaps are using it to visualise PBrane multiple membrane space. They have a dimensional location at each of the five nodes.

Looks to be that five is the minimum number of nodes needed to generate almost infinite variations.

Edited November 2, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Birch]

That pentacle diagram is exactly the same as a logic frame I tried to paste elsewhere, it's from our Math Inst and the super string chaps are using it to visualise PBrane multiple membrane space. They have a dimensional location at each of the five nodes.

Looks to be that five is the minimum number of nodes needed to generate almost infinite variations.

 

That's funny as I had a feeling that might be said in relation to the t-shirt wearing beer-bellied physicists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_(number)

[Stosh]

Only the first noble glimmerings of rational folks trying to understand ,categorize the material world

....proto science , and the only blameable flaw is ignoring 2500 years of progress since then.

[ChiDragon]

Wood supports Fire

Fire supports Earth

Earth supports Metal

Metal supports Water

Water supports Wood

 

Fire weakens Metal

Metal weakens Wood

Wood weakens Earth

Earth weakens Water

Water weakens Fire

 

I don't speak any Chinese, so I had to use a translator to double check myself on the characters, but I knew the supporting relationships for sure, so I am pretty sure the rest is correct from there.

 

That's great, but that was only the basic concept. Now, let's put it into applications. In TCM, these elements become categories. In terms of internal organs, they were categorized as such:

 

1. Meta(金)l: lung, large intestine

2. Water(水): kidney, bladder

3. Wood(木): liver, bile bladder

4. Fire(火): heart, small intestine

5. Earth(土): spleen, stomach

 

Based on your understanding,

1. Metal supports Water vs lung supports kidney

2. Water weakens Fire vs kidney weakens heart

 

What that is saying was if something goes wrong with the kidney, you don't go fix the kidney but the lung. In TCM, they think that the lung was weak which does not have enough support for the kidney.

 

The heart was categorized as Fire. When the heart was too weak, in TCM, they'll say that the fire in the heart was too weak. This is the language that they spoke in the TCM world. We should not take that too serious literally. It is because the fire in the heart does not actually burn.

[thelerner]

Only the first noble glimmerings of rational folks trying to understand ,categorize the material world

....proto science , and the only blameable flaw is ignoring 2500 years of progress since then.

So..is it useful today? I say yes. Its not going to replace physics or chemistry, but I don't use those intimately (more tangentially) in every day life. For decision making I find there's value looking at things through 5 element theory. It sorts and streamlines problems into clear solutions. Its an invaluable tool. It categorizes but not statically, allowing things to evolve according to natural and psychological rules.

[GrandmasterP]

It's a useful tool but as far as TCM is concerned I'd stick with western allopathic treatments for starters with TCM as a complementary rather than an alternative approach.

In the UK we have high street and shopping mall TCM type stores in many town centres, it must be popular as they tend to be in high rental locations.

[Birch]

"Systems Theory".

Seems to me to be an entirely different approach to the world than abstract numerisation.

 

However 'ancient' the system of 5E is, does it 'work'? As in, when applied (via TCM, or otherwise) and not 'just' theorized.

I'm a bit of a lazy piece of work and when something works already (especially a rich analytical, physical and metaphysical framework) I'm loathe to start all over again just to come up with the same thing already. I'm not rejecting the notion of refinement of understanding BTW. If that 5E stuff was considered as vectorial forces (which is sort of what I'm getting at with the phase rather than element thing) maybe the t-shirt dudes would be more interested in it. Hell, there are centuries-worth of theorems for them to dig up and get Nobelled with.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Five Categories, Four Tiers, 20 Elements:

 

I

Body > Technology > Ice > Poison > Magma

 

II

Earth > Metal > Water > Nature > Fire

 

III

Gravity > Electricity > Shadow > Air > Light

 

IV

Magnetism > Void > Spirit > Qi > Mind

 

 

By Order of Spiritual Density, highest to lowest.

 

 

 

 

 

Spring Summer Autum Fall One tier for them all.

 

Inhale Relax Retain Exhale

Expand Relax Retain Contract

The rule of 4 can be found in almost, if not literally, everything.

[Mo Tzu]

In answer to GrandmasterP

 

Way old Grandmaster Chang told it was....

Wood through fire burns to earth

Mine earth for metal

Pure water condenses out of the air onto metal.

Which for some reason was always a highly polished metal mirror.

 

 

Wood creates Fire

Fire creates Earth

Earth creates Metal

Metal creates Water

Water creates Wood

[GrandmasterP]

ta.

It was that metal mirror bit that always got to me.

Fair enough steam condenses on a shower room mirror but For some reason it seems to be stretching an analogy. maybe it's just me.

Anybody got a better example of metal to water?

[ChiDragon]

The idea of 'Metal to water" was from when metal(solid phase), in high temperature, molten into the liquid phase.

 

"Water" does not mean water but the liquid phase. BTW We must learn to have a flexible think when we are talking about the five elements. They are, sometimes, referred as classes, categories, phrases, or elements.

Edited November 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

we're working with a creative/destructive application cycle, not a literal creationism idea; applying earth to metal provides that metal, applying metal to earth removes the earth (to mine more metal hur hur hur).

 

 

So metal to water, we can control the flow of water and harness the power of water, whereas water applied to metal returns the metal to earth through rust.

 

 

Creative cycles are Earth condenses and forms metal ores, which can be mined and refined to control the power of water, which we use to grow crops and trees, which are used to construct our homes and heat them as well, to where we set the wood on fire and the wood returns to the earth.

 

&

 

Earth gives a place for the seeds to grow into wood and crops, which are harvested using metal tools, and the wood for fire which we use to cool, using metal, through fire that we can boil water or contain it and direct it to our crops.

 

OR

 

Earth extinguished the fire, which destroyd the crops, which absorbed the water, that was rusting the metal, which was scarring the earth.

 

&

 

The water extinguishes the fire which melts the metal that cuts the wood eating earth.

 

 

 

We can see a star and a circle, both pointing in each direction, thereby having 2 destructive paths and 2 creative paths uniting into the law of four, from a 5 element perspective.

[Andrei]

Ice is cristal which has structure and order, the inherent characteristic of metal.

Ice melts and becomes water.

Be like water my friend.

 

When an element becomes mature will create the new one through excess.

Rain is black/blue in spring which creates wood.

Wood is green in summer which creates fruits and red colours in late summer.

Red colours in late summer will turn yellow in autumn, which makes the earth.

Naked earth will become white from snow in winter.

The ice melts turning everything black again in spring.

Edited November 4, 2012 by steam

[Birch]

I often look at it as a much better game of 'rock,paper,scissors' - although in that one, it's destruction all round. What I love about 5E is what looks like its predictive capacity. Also makes you look at all elements in a situation together, not just the more obvious ones. It's the missing part of 'dependent origination' which just says that's the way things are, but not how.

 

Anyway, not that I practice it very well:-)

 

Edit for one rock too many in the game above.

Edited November 4, 2012 by -K-

[Aetherous]

More food for thought:

 

 

The Chinese five elements are almost nonsensical when moving through the time of day.

[GrandmasterP]

yep crystalline ice to water I can see that, metal being crystalline too.

many thanks for all explanations.

[Andrei]

There are two paradigms juxtaposed one over the other, one is the circulation of energy, fluids, information, whatever through meridians, which is kind of electrical in nature, you need a wire and a fluid that is passing through. The other is the 5 elements paradigm which is like a field influence or "magnetic" nature. They can be both in the same time. Like the wave and particle thing.

[al.]

The idea of 'Metal to water" was from when metal(solid phase), in high temperature, molten into the liquid phase.

 

"Water" does not mean water but the liquid phase. BTW We must learn to have a flexible think when we are talking about the five elements. They are, sometimes, referred as classes, categories, phrases, or elements.

 

Yes, trying to understanding ancient Chinese concepts through the prism of modern English language requires a shift in thinking and seeing.

 

Reminded of this quote by Wang Bing-

"The words are that which clarify the images; obtaining the images, one forgets the words. The images are that which maintain the meaning; obtaining the meaning, one forgets the image. Similarly, a trail is how you catch a hare. Once you have the hare, you forget the trail. Traps are how you catch a fish. Once you have the fish, you forget the trap. In this way, then, words are the trail of the images, and images are the traps of meaning."

 

More food for thought:

 

 

The Chinese five elements are almost nonsensical when moving through the time of day.

 

Cool diagram.

 

To make sense of how the 5E relate to the passing of time requires flexibility of thought- there are many types of time....

To talk about this in the normal sense requires an understanding of how the patterns of 5 and the patterns of 6 and 12 interrelate.

On a much larger scale from minutes and hours, I think there is a correlation between the Indian Yuga's and the 5E- and that indeed in different points in history the sequence of the 5E shifts- usually in terms of Earth switching from between Fire/Yang and Metal/Yin to between Water/Yin and Wood/Yang.

Also, in regards to how this correlates to the circulation of Qi in the primary channels and organs of the body, it can be helpful to think of the PC/TB as not just Fire, but also as Water or the pivot between Water and Fire.....

[GrandmasterP]

My head is hurting.

;-)

Our teacher told us that

 

'Qi goes where blood flows'

 

That'll do for me

[Birch]

Perhaps not as nonsensical when viewed as 'biorythms'?

 

[Birch]

Yes to the many types of time thing. That one all by itself is worth an entire thread.

 

[Taomeow]

My head is hurting.

;-)

Our teacher told us that

 

'Qi goes where blood flows'

 

That'll do for me

 

Qi is the "Ruler of blood" or "General of blood." Blood flows where qi goes.

 

Yi is the ruler of qi. Qi flows where yi goes.

 

This is the basis of all taoist cultivation routines. You learn first to discern the natural cycles and then to take control and manage their flow as you see fit, moving blood with qi, and then as you advance, moving qi with yi. Longmen pai, e.g., offers one practice in particular that first makes you aware of the natural flow between the material internal organs moving the qi in a five phases cycle (the blood following this movement) -- kidneys to liver to heart to spleen/stomach to lungs and back to kidneys, etc.. This is followed by engaging yi to modify this pattern (increase the flow of qi and blood to the organs that are deficient, taking from the ones that have excess). This is followed by voluntary control of the gross anatomical internal organs (they all have vast and magnificent mobility both in space and in function unknown to modern man and to modern science -- in a modern human they are "stuck," arrested in one place and in functional ineptitude, due to lack of conscious control due to massive blocks of unconsciousness built into a modern human system by developmental aberrations from the natural way). This is followed by steadily growing voluntary control of yi, qi, blood, and internal organs' gross anatomy and physiology customized to the goals of the practitioner -- martial, healing, alchemical, magical, artistic, altruistic, or all of these and more. Mastering the five phases within the microcosm turns a mere human into a taoist sage -- a force of nature in the macrocosm.

 

Getting the natural cycles of the five phases right is an early prerequisite for this work. The condescending "modern science has made progress since then" stances is something I find highly amusing. No it hasn't. This is the ultimate science of the energies of the world. There's no physics Ph.D. who knows enough about the energies of the world to voluntarily move his or her liver to a different location, or stop and start the rain the way you turn your computer on and off, or manifest a spontaneous live grid over a city of 13 million where everybody who is practicing this system is located at an equal distance from the next participant, e.g.. I've seen this done, with the energies mastered through this ancient science, not through any modern ones.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

stop and start the rain.... i've had experience but i am not yet understanding how much am i influencing the weather or not, is it just a coincidence? ... That during my most consistent and intent practice... it rains?

Edited November 4, 2012 by Hot Nirvana Judo Trend