5 elements in the real world

[Stosh]

^{Oh and beware of those peddling garbage for a long time too.}

[Aetherous]

The material phenomenon labeled thus -- Water or Metal or the rest -- is an immediately perceptible part of this particular phase of qi.

 

Good insight.

[Walker]

Taomeow: 善哉！

[ChiDragon]

A good place to start is with the basic properties of these phases:

Water descends(true)

Wood expands(partial true)

Fire ascends(true)

Earth rotates(it means soil here)

Metal contracts(partial true)

 

Wood expands only when more water was absorbed.

Earth means soil in the five elements rather than the Earth which rotates.

Metals do contract and expend with different temperatures.

 

It seems that is not so 善哉！after all.

[Taomeow]

A good place to start is with the basic properties of these phases:

Water descends(true)

Wood expands(partial true)

Fire ascends(true)

Earth rotates(it means soil here)

Metal contracts(partial true)

 

Wood expands only when more water was absorbed.

Earth means soil in the five elements rather than the Earth which rotates.

Metals do contract and expend with different temperatures.

 

It seems that is not so 善哉！after all.

 

I am talking wuxing, not new age.

 

Wood expands when a chicken lays eggs from which little chicks emerge, or when a ChiDragoness lays an egg from which a little feisty ChiDragon emerges.

 

Earth rotates when it's the planet and when it's the soil (ever heard the agricultural term "soil rotation?") but unless you are an astronaut or a farmer, this is largely inconsequential for your personal well-being. What is of consequence is that your Spleen rotates the production of your blood and immune cells in distinct cycles of Earth qi rotation.

 

Metal is what the collapsing core of the supernova produces. The factor limiting this process is the amount of energy that is released through fusion, which is dependent on the binding energy ("contracting qi" to a taoist) that holds together atomic nuclei. Each additional step of this process produces progressively heavier nuclei, which release progressively less energy when fusing. In addition, from carbon-burning onwards, energy loss via neutrino production becomes significant, leading to a higher rate of reaction. This continues until nickel-56 is produced, which decays radioactively into cobalt-56 and then iron-56. As iron and nickel have the highest binding energy per nucleon of all the elements, energy cannot be produced at the core by fusion, and a nickel-iron core grows. This core is under huge gravitational pressure. As there is no fusion to further raise the star's temperature to support it against collapse, it is supported only by degeneracy pressure of electrons. In this state, matter is so dense that further compaction would require electrons to occupy the same energy states. However, this is forbidden for identical fermion particles, such as the electron—a phenomenon called the Pauli exclusion principle. This is what "Metal qi contracts" really means, pal.

[Andrei]

Hi Taomeow, I have a more earthly question regarding face types: what are the relationships between the "elements" or "phases" with the face shape.

Is it correct like this?

Metal - round face

Water - triangle with base down, angle pointing up

Wood - oval

Fire - triangle with base up, angle pointing down

Earth - square

 

How is the energy dictating the face shape, the way you said earlier should be like this

Wood - ?

Metal - square

Earth - round

Fire - ?

Water - ?

[Isimsiz Biri]

Hi Recep Ivedic,

 

you are not bothering me at all. Anyone who is going for to grasp the basics of taoism is doing the right thing. (Anyone who forms and peddles an opinion about them without years of study and practice is doing the wrong one. )

 

OK, let me try to help if I can.

 

1. Forget the "correspondences" with Western (or to be precise, Indo-European as opposed to Southeast Asian) system, they are sought by those who are familiar with the Western system in order to -- well, I don't know, in order to make things easier by concluding that if they know the Western system, this automatically imparts knowledge of the taoist system? In order to stay on the linear hierarchical plane where there's "lower" and "higher" "elements?" There's taoist schools that have been influenced by Buddhism (some lightly and some heavily) that will find these correspondences and use them in their interpretation of the taoist system. But Wuxing, the Five Phases (of qi, not the "five elements of substances" as Western understanding tends to interpret them), is an original taoist system that neither came from the Indo-European ones nor shares their prejudices. It is a taoist system that describes the permutations of qi in a cycle of phases which transform into each other as they go, generate each other, increase or decrease each other, control or are controlled by each other. They are not static, and they are not limited to an "element" that gave them their name. The name is not the phase of qi. The name is a label. The material phenomenon labeled thus -- Water or Metal or the rest -- is an immediately perceptible part of this particular phase of qi. Water is wet, Fire is hot. But the immediately perceptible "elements" do not reveal the whole paradigm of properties of a particular phase of qi. These are vast and need to be studied for a long time in order to be comprehended. A good place to start is with the basic properties of these phases:

 

Water descends

Wood expands

Fire ascends

Earth rotates

Metal contracts

 

The question "why" is an advanced one. If you practice a taoist art hands on, it answers this question better than explanations divorced from any material that relies on these . Pick one and start there, you'll understand. E.g., take taiji. If you punch someone the taiji way, they can't block. There is no block against a taiji punch because the punch is utilizing a Water principle -- it's not coming against a block like a stick against a stick or a metal rod against a metal rod. It is coming as a stream of Water. Block it in front of your face with your arm and this will not stop it -- the taiji arm willl cascade over and down and into the face, like a stream of water would when hitting an obstacle at that angle. I could give you a thousand examples, but the properties of the five phases can be grasped only if these examples had a real-life frame of reference in your life, i.e. a practiced taoist art, any authentic one will do, they are all based on the same principles (hooray! )

 

Taomeow,

 

In my understanding, someone, some masters must have observed these five categories of energy and their associated patterns you mentioned. And this is not just one master but many generations of masters who can see with their third eye the astral realms. If this is the case, I really do not understand why there is a difference between cultures not just Western compared to Chinese but also Sufism and Islam to Chinese.

 

Anyway, unless we are able to rally see these energies, we can not solve that mystery.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Recep Ivedik

[GrandmasterP]

TaiChi boxing against TaiChi boxing is interesting when punches are being exchanged.

Edited November 12, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[ChiDragon]

^{Oh and beware of those peddling garbage for a long time too.}

 

How can I miss this one....???

[GrandmasterP]

Not much call for peddled garbage round these parts, we usually pay for someone to take it away but if anyone would like to buy it....

[ChiDragon]

.......ahhhhhhhhhhhhh Now I get it.....!!!

[Stosh]

It came out harsher than I wanted.

A lot of things dont validate ideas and concepts which folks ,nevertheless lend weight to.

Who said it

How long they have been saying it

a lineage across time said it

Why they said it

How they said it.

How many people say it.

 

Coming from a christian background which I greatly reject now

I dont believe those factors should be weighed heavily

 

Someone had a little postscript they had tagged to thier posts I consider apt

Which I paraphrase ,, one should check the soundness of such stuff ,not take

other folks word for it blindly..

 

The tendency can also be had , to be too critical , to expect any statements to have

zero exceptions , that if one can punch any hole at all in an idea that any construal

that it might have had also should be rejected.

Just as a matter of personal opinion I think it can behoove one to look

instead for the KEYs to the riddle , How can this be seen as true?

I find Taoism highly ironic

Things that fly in the face of a hostile conventional approach

can sometimes work out to have wisdom.

But not always. and not always as stated.

 

The all life is suffering thing for instance ,

how the heck can that be a viable premise for a religion ?

The problem is- the word dukkha is a broader term than suffering

( I found out today) it includes the ephemeral joys which arent suffering per se

Its just that these things are not up to the ideal of a total bliss remaining forever.

Taken in this light , it makes sense that one would want the perfect version one day.

Im sure there are some that really and truly think it means suffering all day all the time

Even they could come to an acceptance of their state while living , as in

"yeah life sucks , get over it "

Edited November 12, 2012 by Stosh

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

you're having fun with this. it comes into focus when the dualities are recognized and dealt with appropriately.

 

 

Taoism isnt hinged on "life sucks" as much as it is on "get over it"

[Taomeow]

Hi Taomeow, I have a more earthly question regarding face types: what are the relationships between the "elements" or "phases" with the face shape.

Is it correct like this?

Metal - round face

Water - triangle with base down, angle pointing up

Wood - oval

Fire - triangle with base up, angle pointing down

Earth - square

 

How is the energy dictating the face shape, the way you said earlier should be like this

Wood - ?

Metal - square

Earth - round

Fire - ?

Water - ?

 

Water is sometimes symbolized by a triangle pointing down -- Water descends; think of the triangle as an arrow pointing out the vector of the flow of qi when thinking Fire vs. Water. (In your face shape designations, Fire and Water are actually transposed). Metal is round or arch-like or dome-like. (Christian, Moslem, Hindu, and most Buddhist temples are either Fire-shaped -- e.g. the Gothic ones, oh and of course the pyramids all over the globe that started it all, Fire/sun god/higher off-planet power, god or gods -- the pyramids point in the general direction of "away from the earth and toward an off-planet power up there" -- or Metal-shaped with a round dome. Taoist, Shinto -- Earth or Wood shaped, pagoda-shaped. "Here, of this world.")

 

Most Hollywood actresses of the recent decades have Fire shaped faces, with a broad jaw that is supposed to cultivate the ideal of beauty based on this shape. In traditional Chinese face reading, however, men are cautioned against marrying women with this facial shape because they are considered not only lacking in female traits but actually are believed to be "man-eaters," with the broad jaw facilitating the process of consuming everything that comes their way, including mates.

[GrandmasterP]

you're having fun with this. it comes into focus when the dualities are recognized and dealt with appropriately.

 

 

Taoism isnt hinged on "life sucks" as much as it is on "get over it"

 

...............................

'Shit Happens. Fess Up!'

(Our centre's unofficial motto)

[Stosh]

 

Mostly any way that gets one to accepting things as they really are ...and be fine with that ..even happy with that

seems a wise perspective.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Stosh

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

... which is why we have many subjective methods of handling the objective; a means by which we can learn to accept the objective... it is often times more subjective than the scientific mind might hold rational, but if it gets the job done...... we don't all gotta be rocket scientists!

[GrandmasterP]

Rational only gets you so far.

Many great leaps forward must have appeared to be quite irrational at the time.

Pot Noodle for example.

[Andrei]

Thank you Taomeow,

 

now I get it:

 

Metal - round face

Water - triangle with base up, angle pointing down

Wood - oval

Fire - triangle with base down, angle pointing up

Earth - square

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Thank you Taomeow,

 

now I get it:

 

Metal - round face

Water - triangle with base up, angle pointing down

Wood - oval

Fire - triangle with base down, angle pointing up

Earth - square

 

 

Sacred Geometry huh?

[Maddie]

Ok so for those in the know of Taoist cosmetology I'm trying to figure out how to reach the Tao. Now since the five elements came after yin and yang, and yin and yang came after tai chi, and wuji is balancing the five elements with in yourself an important step on the path to Tao?

 

I just did a spleen/earth meditation that I had not done for a while, it was really nice :-)

[ChiDragon]

 

I just did a spleen/earth meditation that I had not done for a while, it was really nice :-)

 

How did you know it was a meditation for the spleen but not for the heart......???

[Maddie]

 

How did you know it was a meditation for the spleen but not for the heart......???

Because I did the Spleen meditation and not the Heart meditation lol.

 

The main question I had though was the role of the five elements in cultivation.

[ChiDragon]

IMHO I don't think one can distinguish meditation to pin point to a particular organ. It is really hard to justify by claiming a particular meditation which was aiming at a particular organ. The things we breathe in only goes into the lungs and circulated by the blood. The function of the Respiratory and Circulatory Systems are always the same. Since the role of the Five Elements represent five major organs, therefore, we may come to a conclusion that meditation will effect all the internal organs in the interaction looping cycle.

[Maddie]

IMHO I don't think one can distinguish meditation to pin point to a particular organ. It is really hard to justify by claiming a particular meditation which was aiming at a particular organ. The things we breathe in only goes into the lungs and circulated by the blood. The function of the Respiratory and Circulatory Systems are always the same. Since the role of the Five Elements represent five major organs, therefore, we may come to a conclusion that meditation will effect all the internal organs in the interaction looping cycle.

True granted if you do a meditation for a specific organ its going to be good for you all around. But the reason that I know I did a meditation specifically for my Spleen was because I use the healing sound meant for the spleen (hu), and the inner smile color of the spleen (yellow). I visualize the yellow energy going to the spleen, smiling at the spleen, and making the spleen sound on the exhale. There is one for each zang organ, and it is quite specific.