strong energy cultivation

[Shagrath]

Does somebody know what made master Wang Xiangzhai, Robert Peng, newly famous John Chang, etc that strong in manifesting and controlling energy and energetic processes, zapping touch, etc? Is it just strong dan tiens or they have activated some parts of mind that other practitioners didn't or couldn't? I know a lot of people that are training some forms of qigong every day for 1-3h for 30 years and nothing, and Master Wang just did Zhan Zhuang and he went really in depth of controlling energy. Every individual with those kind of supreme energy control did different style/approach to training and because of that I cannot see any overlap in what they did except meditation and devotion to energy arts

 

Is there something special that person has to develop as ability or make strong some energy structure to start developing those kind of abilities or you just practice daily energy work and meditation and it will come if you have those kind of potentials inside you?

 

Thanks

[Ninjafro]

I'm by no means an expert, but I'm sure the disparity can be described largely in part by merely the lineage/traditions from which these individuals learned.

 

The way I see it, it's similar to an educational setting: if you spend an hour a day going to an introductory physics class each day, you're not going to know as many things after 10 years as you would studying accelerated, calculus-based physics for an hour a day for the same number of years.

[Shagrath]

Yes that is true, and I cannot agree more on that. But I know a few people that are practicing Zhan Zhuang for 2h per day for few years and they have only health benefits and on the other hand you have Master Wang who also practised Zhan Zhuang and he was well Master Wang

 

There most be something more to any cultivation beside exercise.

[Shagrath]

And on the other end of the spectrum you have Padre Pio (Francesco Forgione) who didn't do any particular energy cultivation, nei gong, or dan tien exercises he was just a monk and he prayed entire day and he was stigmata and very famous healer. He could cure cancer in few seconds.

[Ish]

Teacher, method, student.

 

If someone practiced Zhan Zhuang correctly for 2 hours straight every day for 3-5 years, In my opinion they would be a transformed person, very powerful.

The problem is many people these days are learning from a book, so for many people this is not adequate to practice correctly. In this case the more devoted the student the bigger mess they MIGHT get themselves in, due to extensive practice in a harmful manner.

 

So when you get an excellent teacher with an excellent practice and an excellent student, that is a recipe for success.

[Protector]

There is a connection

The one reason why they're powerful

This connection is not clearly seen when people think of energy practices as something like sports

When training in a gym, a person has to do the same exercise a whole bunch of times that will give them more strength

With energy things it's the opposite, while physical strength is gained by doing something, the other kind of strength is gained by not doing anything

What these people do is gather energy and don't use it. It's like splashing some water out of a bucket, once the water is gone you need to get more.

 

Even though it looks like additional muscle from physical exercise is proof of having more power, it's actually something completely different.

The muscle is not the source of power but the pathways. When you want to lift something in a gym, you send your intention into doing it then the energy looks for a way to do it and then you finally lift it. Yi Chi and Jing

After doing something many times it becomes easier because there are more pathways for energy to travel. Like an old river, water washes away at the shores and it becomes wider and smoother over time.

 

The way to gather energy is to trap it. Horse stance is one way to do it but it must be very painful, instead of getting easier it gets harder. Monks all over the world have practices where they take vows to not do certain things and if they do things right, they gather power. Mo Pai seems to be a martial art all about gathering energy, practitioner just gathers so much power that normal people don't have anything they can do against them.

 

DO THE HORSE STANCE! GO LOWER!

[GrandmasterP]

Padre Pio I have no idea. For sure the guy was an amazing healer but as far as our paths are concerned the guy never cultivated a day in his life.

Grandmaster John Chang was a bang up healer with a busy practice long before he was 'discovered' by those documentary guys and then it all seemed to go at bit pear shaped. seems like he's back to doing it his way now but beyond that there seems to be little information that is reliable and what I have seen in English is written by guys with a book to sell or an axe to grind but maybe there are genuine Mo Pai teachers in the west. Someone on here is sure to know. Shocking Hand technique is an old standard though, you can see similar in many traditions from the pentecostalist chaps slaying the faithful in the spirit by a dinger touch or even a breath through our guys who can have folk tilting heavy tables with a little finger to the electric hands of acupuncturists . That's not difficult to learn and do and it's not magic just a combination of Newtonian Mechanics and suggestion.

Those guys who can push a huge opponent through the air with effortless ease are using technique and that can be learnt but like any technique some become really good at it , others not so good. Peter Ralston's very best students are no match for Peter himself no disrespect to any of them. Chris Lomas iron shirt lads are the same, Chris is just that bit better at it than everyone else always.

Mainly the big ticket routines like pushing, shock hands or similar aren't necessarily what the cultivation is about they are more like showcases of the more dramatic effects of what some cultivations can DO. Beyond a few people saying "Gosh!" and then wanting to have a go themself the world continues to turn much as it ever did. Sincere cultivation with long term benefit isn't nearly as showy, it's simply what cultivators do day after day with a view to maybe one day getting better at it. No audience required.

HTH

Edited November 6, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Shagrath]

So you both are saying that if you have a genuine teacher and you practice a lot you'll achieve energy powers. It makes sense but what about everybody who trained Xingyiquan and only one person was Wang. Why didn't all students of his teacher had the same level of energy control. Or Morihei Ueshiba, who created aikido. He was the only one with absolute control with energy processes and from all of his students the was only Gozo Shioda who came very close to Morihei. And other hundreds of people who trained even more then Gozo with genuine teacher could not do what he did.

 

I don't think there is a system guarantees energy powers.

[Shagrath]

Teacher, method, student.

 

If someone practiced Zhan Zhuang correctly for 2 hours straight every day for 3-5 years, In my opinion they would be a transformed person, very powerful.

The problem is many people these days are learning from a book, so for many people this is not adequate to practice correctly. In this case the more devoted the student the bigger mess they MIGHT get themselves in, due to extensive practice in a harmful manner.

 

So when you get an excellent teacher with an excellent practice and an excellent student, that is a recipe for success.

 

Now I can relate to what you are saying. I was one of those people Yesterday I went to my first individual training of Da Cheng Quan and it was mind blowing. Different then anything I read before.

[de_paradise]

Power is finding and synchronizing with qi and higher level of consciousness, not much to do with physical movements which are only the base.

[Cheshire Cat]

From my experience, the "trick" here is to learn Zen Mind.

If you do Zhang Zhuang with a Zen Mind, it works deep.

 

Otherwise, you will reach a "limit level" of standing (maybe more than 2 hours), but nothing more.

[Mokona]

Whenever you passionately practice something for a long time you get results. How hard is that? You can develop chi from just sitting and practicing chi breathing and relaxation response.

 

I'm no John Chang but it worked for me. Boom.

[GrandmasterP]

Good post. Any cultivation stuck at pays dividends. It's skipping merrily from one thing to another that holds back development and success.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Does somebody know what made master Wang Xiangzhai, Robert Peng, newly famous John Chang, etc that strong in manifesting and controlling energy and energetic processes, zapping touch, etc?

 

Yes. Though I'm being slightly presumptuous. I don't know Robert Peng, and I know enough about Sifu Chang to know I don't know what he does so this is not about him.

 

However in the lines of Xing-yi (and some bagua) there are accounts of this kind of ability, and I am aware of aspects of that.

 

First let me say, 'qi' can be felt either via nerves or from fluids, this I have been taught from several sources and so it seems beyond simply 'one style's' way of thinking. When felt through nerves it tends to be electric, zappy, tingly, or like lightning. Fluids is different. From this it is often clear which systems appear to advocate training that has an emphasis for one or the other or a balanced approach. It is NOT that you have 'electric' qi or whatever, the sensations are just that, and are a feedback for how you feel the qi. With practice you can learn to use qi in ways that produce those sensations more than others. Make sense?

 

You want to balance and practice xiantian (pre-heaven) and houtian (postheaven) methods. The xiantian gong tends to be the deeper more internal stillness practices that take you into yourself and back towards emptiness. The houtian gong tends to be about balancing and developing what and who you are here and now, physically, energetically etc. They are intimately related. Like the phrase 'to go out, go in, to go in, go out'. You can only go so far one way, without a balanced opposite. Xiantian gong tends to emphasise building and developing dantian and zhongmai.

 

Martial artists tend to emphasise houtian, because they need to fight. But the development of intent that aids the xiantian gong is defintely improved through the practice of martial arts.

 

Yi Quan if taught well is great houtian, however it is extremely rare for anyone to be doing xiantian within it.

 

Best,

 

For some more information see;

http://thetaobums.com/topic/23696-%26%2336798%3B%26%2325705%3B%26%2320808%3B%26%2322825%3B%26%2321151%3B-damobodhidharmas-xian-tian-gong/#entry340654

Edited November 7, 2012 by snowmonki

[Humble]

The argument could be made that surviving Kundalini/Greater Kan and Li (think I said that right) also connects a person with high levels of power and/or siddhi. Which makes sense for hose who pursue that kind of enlightenment, but what of the "spontaneous awakenings"? There's no tradition or lineage involved in those.

I'm inclined to believe that development takes a massive amount of dedication for just about everyone but now and then an extremely rare person comes along who taps into The Dao/Divine/Kundalini etc in different ways. These are the people who start lineages or techniques. In a way it may be good that many people are learning from books or videos and exploring for themselves, this may lead to new usefull techniques being created. Or more spontaneous combustion. You know, whichever.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Does somebody know what made master Wang Xiangzhai, Robert Peng, newly famous John Chang, etc that strong in manifesting and controlling energy and energetic processes, zapping touch, etc? Is it just strong dan tiens or they have activated some parts of mind that other practitioners didn't or couldn't? I know a lot of people that are training some forms of qigong every day for 1-3h for 30 years and nothing, and Master Wang just did Zhan Zhuang and he went really in depth of controlling energy. Every individual with those kind of supreme energy control did different style/approach to training and because of that I cannot see any overlap in what they did except meditation and devotion to energy arts

 

Is there something special that person has to develop as ability or make strong some energy structure to start developing those kind of abilities or you just practice daily energy work and meditation and it will come if you have those kind of potentials inside you?

 

Thanks

 

In my humble opinion, it is a matter of lineage. If there is a master of a certain true lineage and if that lineage really possess the correct set of techniques, then with the guidance of that master, the results that you are looking for could be achieved.

 

Also, Chang Sifu, Wang Xiangzhai and Robert Peng are not in the same league. I am not sure of Chang Sifu's level, once upon a time I heard that he is level 20 of 72. Again, I am not sure of this information. But anyway, Chang sifu is far more superior than the other two.

 

I would also like to add that I think Wang Xiangzhai's methods of Zhang Zhuang and martial art of Yiquan or Da Cheng Chuan is very valuable, because it is much more easy to access them compared to Mo-Pai and especially Zhang Zhuang could be done by everybody and it is very good for health. Thus, for public interest, Wang Xiangzhai has much more importance than Mo-Pai.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Recep Ivedik

[Shagrath]

Yes. Though I'm being slightly presumptuous. I don't know Robert Peng, and I know enough about Sifu Chang to know I don't know what he does so this is not about him.

 

However in the lines of Xing-yi (and some bagua) there are accounts of this kind of ability, and I am aware of aspects of that.

 

First let me say, 'qi' can be felt either via nerves or from fluids, this I have been taught from several sources and so it seems beyond simply 'one style's' way of thinking. When felt through nerves it tends to be electric, zappy, tingly, or like lightning. Fluids is different. From this it is often clear which systems appear to advocate training that has an emphasis for one or the other or a balanced approach. It is NOT that you have 'electric' qi or whatever, the sensations are just that, and are a feedback for how you feel the qi. With practice you can learn to use qi in ways that produce those sensations more than others. Make sense?

 

You want to balance and practice xiantian (pre-heaven) and houtian (postheaven) methods. The xiantian gong tends to be the deeper more internal stillness practices that take you into yourself and back towards emptiness. The houtian gong tends to be about balancing and developing what and who you are here and now, physically, energetically etc. They are intimately related. Like the phrase 'to go out, go in, to go in, go out'. You can only go so far one way, without a balanced opposite. Xiantian gong tends to emphasise building and developing dantian and zhongmai.

 

Martial artists tend to emphasise houtian, because they need to fight. But the development of intent that aids the xiantian gong is defintely improved through the practice of martial arts.

 

Yi Quan if taught well is great houtian, however it is extremely rare for anyone to be doing xiantian within it.

 

Best,

 

For some more information see;

http://thetaobums.co...ng/#entry340654

 

So you are saying that if somebody wants to have energetic abilities must develop itself both in and out, to have strong core energetic structures and the most important to be in contact with emptyness from where he manifests his intent?

[寒月 Hanyue]

So you are saying that if somebody wants to have energetic abilities must develop itself both in and out, to have strong core energetic structures and the most important to be in contact with emptyness from where he manifests his intent?

 

 

Something like that, but words are words which we always have to keep in mind, right.

 

Chinese cultivation is, and always has been quite specific from what I've been taught. A couple of phrases one of my teachers uses are, 'the false has become real, and the real has become false', and 'the basic has become advanced', what was once taught early on and was no secret because everyone knew it, has become rarer, and now things are often backwards, and people hold onto the basic and some even see it as advanced. This is partly because of charlatans, misunderstanding and lineages not being passed on.

 

The teachings within real lineages are often simple (the result is in the gongfu, the spare time and effort put in). Today many are doing or teaching things with the same names or terms, but they are not doing the same thing. "A rose by another name...." terms and names are not important, but what you doing IS.

 

You want a good bottle, and you want decent wine in the bottle. Developing either is not developing the other, but both work best together.

 

Waigong is NOT neigong. But they are related and do compliment each other hence phrases like "nei wai he yi" or the 'internal and external come together as one'.

 

One daoist teacher told me, it was all about undertstanding the point of change, not the one thing or the other thing, but when and how one changes into the other. Grasping 'that', they said, was important.

 

Why do you think I love stillness-movement neigong

 

Best,

 

P.S. Please note, "Strong Qi" does not mean you have "Electric Qi", and "Electric Qi" does not mean you have "Strong Qi". The sensations you, or someone else feels from the presence and movement of qi have to do with how that qi is manifesting in and moving through the body. Some however will train and practice to be able to reliably manifest those sensations, this is a skill and is different from 'having a type of qi', does that make sense?

Edited November 7, 2012 by snowmonki

[Shagrath]

In my humble opinion, it is a matter of lineage. If there is a master of a certain true lineage and if that lineage really possess the correct set of techniques, then with the guidance of that master, the results that you are looking for could be achieved.

 

Also, Chang Sifu, Wang Xiangzhai and Robert Peng are not in the same league. I am not sure of Chang Sifu's level, once upon a time I heard that he is level 20 of 72. Again, I am not sure of this information. But anyway, Chang sifu is far more superior than the other two.

 

I would also like to add that I think Wang Xiangzhai's methods of Zhang Zhuang and martial art of Yiquan or Da Cheng Chuan is very valuable, because it is much more easy to access them compared to Mo-Pai and especially Zhang Zhuang could be done by everybody and it is very good for health. Thus, for public interest, Wang Xiangzhai has much more importance than Mo-Pai.

 

How can you tell that they are not in the same league or that somebody is higher level? Energetic abilities doesn't mean anything. They are horizontal development of individual, while vertical would be just spiritual development (Nisargadatta, Osho, etc).

 

Most of the stories of those famous teachers are just stories. I don't believe in most of them, I just listed those few names so everybody who reads the thread better understands what I am asking. Especially I don't believe in John Chang stories in Kostas book. I consider them pure fiction just to make people attracted more to energy arts.

[JohnC]

Like many have said, and I agree with, what some people claim as 3 hours may not be a serious dedication to 3 hours, of holding the posture for the entire length of time.

 

I think it comes down to real hard work, dedication and a good teacher. Especially for the higher levels, which knowledge of is so rare, with many dabbling in the beginning stages and treating them as if they are later stages.

 

John

[Shagrath]

 

Something like that, but words are words which we always have to keep in mind, right.

 

Chinese cultivation is, and always has been quite specific from what I've been taught. A couple of phrases one of my teachers uses are, 'the false has become real, and the real has become false', and 'the basic has become advanced' but are because of charlatans, misunderstanding and lineages not being passed on.

 

The teachings within real lineages are simple, many are doing or teaching things with the same names or terms, but they are not doing the same thing. "A rose by another name...." terms and names are not important, but what you doing.

 

You want a good bottle, and you want decent wine in the bottle. Developing either is not developing the other, but both work best together.

 

One daoist teacher told me, it was all about undertstanding the point of change, not the one thing or the other thing, but when and how one changes into the other. Grasping 'that', they said, was important.

 

Why do you think I love stillness-movement neigong

 

Best,

 

P.S. Please note, "Strong Qi" does not mean you have "Electric Qi", and "Electric Qi" does not mean you have "Strong Qi". The sensations you, or someone else feels from the presence and movement of qi have to do with how that qi is manifesting in and moving through the body. Some however will train and practice to be able to reliably manifest those sensations, this is a skill and is different from 'having a type of qi', does that make sense?

 

It makes perfect sense. Thanks again snowmonki. You know somebody, some system, book, meditation or practice that are teaching those kind of electric jing skills?

[MERCELESS ONE]

from the practices that you rare mentioning, the one thing that you have rite is practice everyday. but the aforementioned masters dont tell all their secrets other wise you would be abele to get to their power level. except john chang who actually tells how to get to a certain point. the problem is ppl give up. the only thing that makes ppl different is thier devotion to learning and understanding this energy stuff. also paying attention to the small things like where to draw energy into the dantien from. and thats just the begining. because the secret is in the meditation not the stances or movements. not knock ing them they just dont matter as much as the meditation. what they are for is to help you focus your energy and strengthen your body to better control the energy. the dantien once trained creates guts of steel and you must have a body that can hold them and a mind that can control them! also ppl want fast results and thats just not going to happen! the powers you mentioned take time and knowledge to master. and the journey between each level of cultivation is far different from the last. and learning different techniques is how you learn what works and what doesent, after practicing what may or may not work for a while to see or prove it to be true or false. but the way to develope power is through the dantien. thats where all power comes from without it there is no power! the reason is when the dantien is trained properly it charges the rest of the chakra and that is the only way these powers are reached! and dont be fooled, dont just stick to somthing because somone says it will give you powers or help you heal. still search elswhere while practicing what you've lerned. im a mixed martial artist and ive always had the upper hand on most of the guys i fought because i practiced multiple styles. the energy arts are no different. my fighting games is sick! but my energy game is more sick! also practice, practice, practice! alot of ppl on this site dont practice much but they think they know alot about neikung. they dont! and its not so much as how much you practice as to what you practice. thats why you have to learn alot and pay attention.

[Ish]

Hey merceless, I was wondering in some other thread you mentioned "going from level 4-8"

1. Are you serious?

2. I feel sorry for your opponents in mixed martial arts if you are even above "level 2".

[寒月 Hanyue]

It makes perfect sense. Thanks again snowmonki. You know somebody, some system, book, meditation or practice that are teaching those kind of electric jing skills?

 

Ahh,

 

I thought I'd hinted quite well already

 

No I do not know a book that lays out what I'm talking about, not in the way you would like.

 

While there are some methods that tend to produce/result in certain qi sensations more then others. It is not so much that there is 'electric qi gong' per se. Each indiviual will experience qi differently. But look at the name, does it have 'thunder' or 'lightning' and similar metaphors in the title? This was an indicator, but thesedays people like using such imagry in names with no relation to the practices, so Additionally, not everyone likes to advertise what they do, so just because it isn't in a name doesn't mean they don't go there

 

I've been taught a way to monitor and understand my practice, so as to make the manifestation of specific qi sensations more reliable over time. Nothing grandiose or mystical about it. Just hard work and time put in. This piece of the puzzle is something I learned more recently and so have not had time to plunge it's depths. So out of respect for my teacher and the lineage I'm not going to try and explain it. I mention it just to say that it is NOT system or method specific, it is simply a process of engaging with what is happening and learning to recognise what is happening and why.

 

IF you practice a GOOD neigong system that truly awakens the dantian, you will begin to experience yangqi. This may be more electric in sensation or more fluid, either sensation is simply an indicator of the qi. That said, understanding the use of intra-abdominal pressure in a safe manner, is a component of the systems I am aware of. I say safe, because many things get lost in translation. Like Chinese concepts that mean to create more internal space that fills with qi ie 'storing', becoming ideas of "packing" which carries connotations of sqeezing and making smaller and more compact. BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

My recommendation is to find and practice and solid neigong system, and a waigong practice. They need to be balanced. However people confuse the idea of balance and harmony by thinking that means equal. It does not. If you balanced rest and activity you would sleep 12 hours and be active 12 hours, actually the healthy balance is not always "equal". Same in cultivation.

 

If you haven't seen Tao Semko's explanation of the differences in Kundalini experiences and manifestations it's worth watching. His view mirrors that which I was taught;

 

 

Best,

[Isimsiz Biri]

How can you tell that they are not in the same league or that somebody is higher level? Energetic abilities doesn't mean anything. They are horizontal development of individual, while vertical would be just spiritual development (Nisargadatta, Osho, etc).

About Osho, I do not like him at all. In my view, he is negative. I know that he is defending free porn, open marriages, etc. These are not for me. But again, I am sure there are many people who like Osho very much. This is their view. I think differently.

 

Most of the stories of those famous teachers are just stories. I don't believe in most of them, I just listed those few names so everybody who reads the thread better understands what I am asking. Especially I don't believe in John Chang stories in Kostas book. I consider them pure fiction just to make people attracted more to energy arts.

 

Yin-Yang Gong of Lei Shan Dao is a real thing. I have best friends who experienced it as a first hand. Moreover, it is not only Chang Sifu and Mo-Pai, there are other Sifus and lineages as well. Chang Sifu is very powerful but there are much much higher level masters out there. They just do not show themselves to public. Please do not ask more details. Of course, you have the right not to believe me as well as I have the right not to have to persuade you.