Light sleep, intense dreaming, the liver and TCM

[madMUHHH]

Hi there,

 

first up, I hope it is okay to post a personal health question here on this forum. I guess most people won't get too much out of this thread because of this, but I'd still appreciate any kind of feedback.

 

So basically, what has been going on that pretty much since the time of the equinox (Which I remember Chunyi Lin saying is a time of the year, at which, due to the change of season, health problem that have been developing do tend to crop up. But whatever) my sleeping patterns have been quite weird. Actually they were weird even before that, as I had been battling with recurring episodes of insomnia for over half a year. But actually it seems like I have gotten over this as my ability to fall asleep has been quite good for the last 1-2 months. However after a few weeks of normal sleep, another strange sleeping pattern has taken its place.

My frequency, duration and intensity of dreams has increased dramatically. However, when I speak of intensity I don't necessarily mean colour and sensations but rather the general complexity of the dream, i.e. the "plot", the characters, the connection to other dreams or memories etc.. Also my sleep is much lighter,often resulting in a kind of inbetween state between being awake and dreaming (I often believe I am dreaming until I realize that I am actually awake or vice versa). Also I often wake up and go back to sleep several times within a single night.

 

So basically my question is, especially in a context of Traditional Chinese Medicine, how to interpret this issue. Initially I suspected this might have to do something with the kidneys as often, when I wake up during the night, I also have to pee. Actually I am quite certain that there is something going on with my kidneys as I have always been a person who has to urinate frequently and is also prone to having cold feet (cold hands not so much, though that too occasionally). My father shares more or less the same fate, so this most likely is inherited and an imbalance that goes rather "deep".

 

But even though that whole kidney issue certainly hasn't improved over the last few months I now suspect that the problem might lie elsewhere, as I have recently read that intense dreaming and light sleep seem to be good indicators of a liver imbalance. And this actually makes sense in a way, because when I had a phone healing sessions with Chunyi Lin several months ago (insomnia related) he told me that I had a blockage in my liver (and didn't say anything about the kidneys, which was quite a surprise to me) and I also do experience some moderate pain in the liver are now and then, which also is a phenomenon that has only cropped up recently.

 

 

To return to my initial question. Does it make sense, from a TCM standpoint, to regard this as a liver imbalance (I realize that diagnosis based only upon one single symptom is always tricky in TCM, so if you have any questions regarding my health/whatever, that might clear up the issue, go ahead).

 

And in case that one can relatively certain about the specific imbalance that is going on here, what are specific things I could do to improve this situation? Which foods to eat, which to avoid? Which herbs would be beneficial in this situation and are there any specific exercises or habits to employ? Stuff like that.

[Protector]

Hey, where have you been?

 

I also have intense dreams lately. Mostly about me chasing something, and as I run through the city there are a lot of details to it.

Sometimes I would wake up from a dream and still see it and then go back to sleep. Kinda like being half awake half asleep and still thinking about the dream while I know I'm in my bed.

[Bubbles]

So basically my question is, especially in a context of Traditional Chinese Medicine, how to interpret this issue. Initially I suspected this might have to do something with the kidneys as often, when I wake up during the night, I also have to pee. Actually I am quite certain that there is something going on with my kidneys as I have always been a person who has to urinate frequently and is also prone to having cold feet (cold hands not so much, though that too occasionally). My father shares more or less the same fate, so this most likely is inherited and an imbalance that goes rather "deep".

 

But even though that whole kidney issue certainly hasn't improved over the last few months I now suspect that the problem might lie elsewhere, as I have recently read that intense dreaming and light sleep seem to be good indicators of a liver imbalance. And this actually makes sense in a way, because when I had a phone healing sessions with Chunyi Lin several months ago (insomnia related) he told me that I had a blockage in my liver (and didn't say anything about the kidneys, which was quite a surprise to me) and I also do experience some moderate pain in the liver are now and then, which also is a phenomenon that has only cropped up recently.

 

 

To return to my initial question. Does it make sense, from a TCM standpoint, to regard this as a liver imbalance (I realize that diagnosis based only upon one single symptom is always tricky in TCM, so if you have any questions regarding my health/whatever, that might clear up the issue, go ahead).

 

And in case that one can relatively certain about the specific imbalance that is going on here, what are specific things I could do to improve this situation? Which foods to eat, which to avoid? Which herbs would be beneficial in this situation and are there any specific exercises or habits to employ? Stuff like that.

 

The Liver Meridian is involved in the multi-faceted symptoms you describe (dreaming, peeing at night etc..). It makes totally sense. Chunyi Lin seems to be right on spot.

 

First, I would consult a TCM doctor, get diagnosed and receive acupuncture/herbal treatment and ask for some dietary advice.

Second, I would do some yoga ( iyengar style preferably). If you can, get this book http://www.amazon.co...ds=iyengar yoga and do the sequence prescribed for prostate problems. This sequence works mainly on the Liver meridian and systems associated.

Edited November 7, 2012 by bubbles

[exorcist_1699]

In TCM, three quite common causes that make us sleepless in night are said to be :

 

1) Uprise of the fire of the liver ("肝火上升"): Here " fire" refers to the overactive ,abnormal function of the yang aspect of the liver, ie , the eccentric behavior of the liver's qi .

 

 

2) Failure in the intercourse between the kidney and heart (" 心腎不交 " ), more precisely speaking , intercourse between the fire of the heart and the water of the kidney; it is said that the mechanism enables us to sleep well in night time is due to the descent of our heart's fire , to meet the arising water from the kidneys , making deep sleep possible;

 

A weakening of the yin ( too much leakage of sperm , for example ) of our kidneys will give rise to fire ( abnormal, overactive qi; symptoms: a feeling of dryness in mouth , sweating even just lying there, restlessness...etc ) that undermines that mechanism of sleeping; it likely happens to middle-aged guys .

 

 

3) Too much phlegm obstruct the function of the above-mentioned mechanism; generally speaking only can people over 45 know the significance of phlegm in our life;

 

Phlegm's appearance is mainly due to the weakening yang ( qi ) of our stomach , which no longer can digest the food and liquid, especially those oily and spicy ones, we eat so efficiently as before; so what should become blood and jing that nourish our body , now become a sticky stuff, and a series of strange symptoms arise...sleeplessness is one of them .

Edited November 8, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[madMUHHH]

Hey, where have you been?

 

Umm....somewhere?

 

 

The Liver Meridian is involved in the multi-faceted symptoms you describe (dreaming, peeing at night etc..). It makes totally sense. Chunyi Lin seems to be right on spot.

 

First, I would consult a TCM doctor, get diagnosed and receive acupuncture/herbal treatment and ask for some dietary advice.

Second, I would do some yoga ( iyengar style preferably). If you can, get this book http://www.amazon.co...ds=iyengar yoga and do the sequence prescribed for prostate problems. This sequence works mainly on the Liver meridian and systems associated.

 

Hmmm. I am not sure how much of an option visiting a TCM doctor is. First of all I'm not even sure whether there are any TCM practitioner in close proximity to where I live. Also I don't think my health insurance would cover that and as a university student that would most likely put it out of my financial reach. We'll see.

 

And about the yoga thing. I'm ot a big fan of mixing different kinds of practices and generally prefer the Chinese systems. But I'm certainly considering that book. I'll see how this thread develops further and then make a decision.

 

 

 

In TCM, three most common causes that make us sleepless in night are said to be :

 

1) Uprise of the fire of the liver ("肝火上升"): Here " fire" refers to the overactive ,abnormal activity of the yang aspect of the liver, ie , eccentric behavior of qi of the liver .

 

 

2) Failure of the intercourse between the kidney and heart (" 心腎不交 " ), more precisely speaking , intercourse between the fire of the heart and the water of the kidney; it is said that the mechanism enables us to sleep well in night time is due to the descent of our heart's fire , to meet the arsing water from the kidneys , making deep sleep possible;

 

A weakening of the yin ( sperm) , for example , of our kidneys will give rise to fire ( abnormal, overactive qi ) that undermine that mechanism of sleeping; ( likely happens to middle-aged guys )

 

 

3) Too much phlegm obstruct the function of the above-mentioned mechanism; generally speaking only people who are over 45 know the significance of phlegm in their life;

Phlegm's appearance is mainly due to the weakening yang ( qi ) of our stomach , which no longer can dissolve the food and liquid, especially those oily and spicy ones, we eat so efficiently as before, so a series of strange symptoms arise...sleeplessness is one of them .

 

Yay, I actually recognized two Chinese symbols (上 & 不). Learning Chinese rules!

I dunno, of those three things, the first one seems the most reasonable. But I only have a rather basic understanding of TCM from reading The Web That Has No Weaver about a year ago (Good book, though). I have been wanting to get back into TCM a bit more for quite some time now, so I guess this is a good opportunity.

 

So, any idea on where to turn to, to make a more precise diagnosis?

Edited November 8, 2012 by madMUHHH

[Bubbles]

Umm....somewhere?

 

 

 

 

Hmmm. I am not sure how much of an option visiting a TCM doctor is. First of all I'm not even sure whether there are any TCM practitioner in close proximity to where I live. Also I don't think my health insurance would cover that and as a university student that would most likely put it out of my financial reach. We'll see.

 

And about the yoga thing. I'm ot a big fan of mixing different kinds of practices and generally prefer the Chinese systems. But I'm certainly considering that book. I'll see how this thread develops further and then make a decision.

 

 

 

 

 

Yay, I actually recognized two Chinese symbols (上 & 不). Learning Chinese rules!

I dunno, of those three things, the first one seems the most reasonable. But I only have a rather basic understanding of TCM from reading The Web That Has No Weaver about a year ago (Good book, though). I have been wanting to get back into TCM a bit more for quite some time now, so I guess this is a good opportunity.

 

So, any idea on where to turn to, to make a more precise diagnosis?

 

Well, intellectual barriers are somewhat comfortable but usually counter-productive.

 

You may know that Qi rides blood. What yoga postures do is allowing blood to reach certain parts of the body by stretching and opening them. Qi work is not only done through the mind. A cluttered body won't be a good channel for Qi circulation. Chunyi Lin advocates Full Lotus, right? Where Full Lotus comes from? India, right?

Usually, this stretching and opening of the body is done through Chinese Martials Arts. I suggested yoga because it was a more accessible and gentle way to do that.

 

Chunyi Lin healing session wasn't covered by your health insurance, I think. You may have to set up your priorities. Only a TCM doctor seeing you in person will be able to make a good diagnosis.

 

Everyone has his own path towards healing anyway but I suggest online diagnosis might not be the most reasonable way.

 

Best wishes

Edited November 8, 2012 by bubbles

[exorcist_1699]

As long as the disease involved is not anything life threatening, expecially those chronic ones, online diagnose is still some kind of helpful reference .Besides, in this process , it enhances your understanding about qi and jing , despite being expressed in their defected or inbalanced forms; so, diseases teach you as much knowledge about qi as your qigong practice.

 

Please note that as a qi gong practitioner ( other Buddhist practices is another story), you should have an ambition of not putting your fate in doctors' hands ; you should have an aspiration of not putting your fate in the so-called Nature's hands. And, sooner or later , you find yourself know your body much better than your doctor; sooner or later , you can cure yourself, then others' diseases by using qi.

 

In fact, many TCM doctors can't initialize qi and do not have any intimate feeling of qi themselves; they can cure because they do read the books; they can cure by observing patients' reactions to the herbal treatment or to the needles, and accumulate the necessary knowledge and experience.

Edited November 8, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[madMUHHH]

Well, intellectual barriers are somewhat comfortable but usually counter-productive.

 

You may know that Qi rides blood. What yoga postures do is allowing blood to reach certain parts of the body by stretching and opening them. Qi work is not only done through the mind. A cluttered body won't be a good channel for Qi circulation. Chunyi Lin advocates Full Lotus, right? Where Full Lotus comes from? India, right?

Usually, this stretching and opening of the body is done through Chinese Martials Arts. I suggested yoga because it was a more accessible and gentle way to do that.

 

 

Just to clear things up. I am not in any way whatsoever implying that Yoga or any of the Indian healing modalities are useless or inferior to the Chinese practices. It's simply that I feel more at home with the Chinese medical systems and have a better understanding of it. So in general I'd prefer material and techniques that help me get a more detailed grip on a subject I already know instead of introducing another different system.

 

But yeah, even with that said, you are probably right that it's stupid to dismiss your suggestion based just on my subjective preference for a specific system. And as I said, I am considering it, but just want to weigh up my options, before making a concrete decision.

 

 

Chunyi Lin healing session wasn't covered by your health insurance, I think. You may have to set up your priorities. Only a TCM doctor seeing you in person will be able to make a good diagnosis.

 

Everyone has his own path towards healing anyway but I suggest online diagnosis might not be the most reasonable way.

 

Best wishes

 

You're probably right about that. If this thing persists, seeing a TCM doctor probably is the smartest option, regardless of whether I think this stretches my budget too much or not. And yes, online diagnosis shouldn't replace professional diagnosis. I alreadysuspected that I'd wind up with those two conclusions, so thanks for spelling that out for me.

 

It's just that I was/am hoping that this, as it still is a rather recent issue, is something that's with a bit of dietary/herbal tinkering and some specific exercises might clear up rather easily. Hence this thread, to see what kind of options you people suggest and, if they sound sensible, try those out and see what happens.

 

That might not be the most mature approach and might lead to a dead end every now and then and perhaps this is such a dead end. But similar to what exoircist_1699 just posted, I do think trying to fight things out on your own especially in the context of a decent qigong routine, also hat its merits, up to a point.

 

And thanks for your input, everyone.

Edited November 8, 2012 by madMUHHH

[exorcist_1699]

In fact, most of the chronic diseases can be cured by the ready prepared traditional Chinese medical pills/ tablets (中成葯); and , because most of them are herbal dose having a history of thousand years, substance being mild and well balanced , so the side effects of even taking a wrong one is minor.

 

Yet some Western fools ( forgive me to use this term, but the more you understand TCM and qigong, the more you will love my expression , and understand my pity towards them ) still stick to their medicine...

 

Of course, you need to know some basic TCM knowledge in order to choose the ready-prepared TCM. Online searching and discussion is one of the best ways of getting the necessary information.

Edited November 9, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[hydrogen]

And in case that one can relatively certain about the specific imbalance that is going on here, what are specific things I could do to improve this situation? Which foods to eat, which to avoid? Which herbs would be beneficial in this situation and are there any specific exercises or habits to employ? Stuff like that.

 

I agree with bubbles about yoga to open your leg meridian blockage.

 

You have to understand the context of TCM. In old China, people walked to every where and squated very often. The high chairs were luxury items. It's not normal for them to have blockage on their legs.

 

In morden western world, the leg meridian blockages are common, especially the back of knee part (kidney and bladder meridian channels).

 

Can you do full lotus? Can you touch your toes? Can your face burry bettwen your knees?

 

Soak your feet with hot water for ten munites before bed. Do some foot massage. Drink fresh ginger tea.

[madMUHHH]

I agree with bubbles about yoga to open your leg meridian blockage.

 

You have to understand the context of TCM. In old China, people walked to every where and squated very often. The high chairs were luxury items. It's not normal for them to have blockage on their legs.

 

In morden western world, the leg meridian blockages are common, especially the back of knee part (kidney and bladder meridian channels).

 

Can you do full lotus? Can you touch your toes? Can your face burry bettwen your knees?

 

Soak your feet with hot water for ten munites before bed. Do some foot massage. Drink fresh ginger tea.

 

Hey, thanks for your input. +1 for Yoga it is, then.

 

Full lotus? Check. Touching my toes? Check. Face bury between my knees? Not exactly sure what you mean with that. ^^

 

What's the specific reason for recommending ginger tea. What action is it supposed to have on the body/organs? Not doubting your recommendation, just trying to learn.

[Bubbles]

Just to clear things up. I am not in any way whatsoever implying that Yoga or any of the Indian healing modalities are useless or inferior to the Chinese practices.

 

It's simply that I feel more at home with the Chinese medical systems and have a better understanding of it. So in general I'd prefer material and techniques that help me get a more detailed grip on a subject I already know instead of introducing another different system.

 

I understand your concern. But my point was more simple. You don't need to stuff your head with the yoga underlying system to actually do the stretchings and postures.. You just do the stretchings and postures according to the simple directions given in the book. That's very simple.

 

It's just that I was/am hoping that this, as it still is a rather recent issue, is something that's with a bit of dietary/herbal tinkering and some specific exercises might clear up rather easily. Hence this thread, to see what kind of options you people suggest and, if they sound sensible, try those out and see what happens.

 

I understand that.

 

I gave you this advice because your first post mentioned some symptoms you have been experiencing for a long-time and some new ones since equinox.

 

So there is some chronicity in your condition and some acute symptoms surfacing recently due to the energetic changes aggravating your condition.

 

To handle this the best way, it seems to me (but I am no expert) that groping around by yourself what is happening is wasting some time and exposing yourself to useless wanderings.

I don't know about how TCM doctors are trained in Germany, but I guess there are decent practioners. Germans are serious people, right?

 

If you decide to consult, make sure you receive a clear and articulate information about the diagnosis so that you will be in the best position to put your condition into an holistic perpective. I mean: what corrections need to be done in your lifestyle, diet, mind.

Then it will be much more easier to know what qigong is appropriate for you. In the meantime, some yoga stretch would open your body.

 

You can of course choose a generic qigong but, your condition is not generic!..you know what I am saying..

 

You can experiment with a generic qigong but you may have to wait a substantial amount of time before seeing any improvement especially if your condition is ancient, and thus deeply rooted.

 

Enough bubbling now, I hope you will find relief soon.

[madMUHHH]

I understand your concern. But my point was more simple. You don't need to stuff your head with the yoga underlying system to actually do the stretchings and postures.. You just do the stretchings and postures according to the simple directions given in the book. That's very simple.

 

Ah, okay. That sounds very sensible. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

I understand that.

 

I gave you this advice because your first post mentioned some symptoms you have been experiencing for a long-time and some new ones since equinox.

 

So there is some chronicity in your condition and some acute symptoms surfacing recently due to the energetic changes aggravating your condition.

 

Actually, I am not so sure about the chronicity issue. It's probably too early to tell, but actually I'd consider that whole insomnia-thingie over. I'm quite sure that I've identified (some of) the main causes (which ironically also involved doing too much qigong, at the wrong time) and got a decent pattern down to combat that. And so far I've been quite impressed by the results. So I'm not really sure whether we are looking at two distinct things or one greater pattern here. Both seems reasonable to me.

 

 

I don't know about how TCM doctors are trained in Germany, but I guess there are decent practioners. Germans are serious people, right?

 

...

 

Heh. I guess so. Maybe that's one of the resons I feel so un-German.

 

As for the rest, though I do consider SFQ quite amazing and a powerful tool in itself, I get your point.

Edited November 8, 2012 by madMUHHH

[hydrogen]

 

What's the specific reason for recommending ginger tea. What action is it supposed to have on the body/organs? Not doubting your recommendation, just trying to learn.

 

Ginger is a very yang food without much side effect. It improves blood circulation to improve your cold feet problem. It also help digestion. Chinese believe upset stomach can cause bad dreams.

 

Other herbs might be better for your condition (Ginseng). But it's better to see a TCM doctor first. Ginger is very safe to try and it's very cheap. Even it doesn't solve your particular problem, at least it can improve your immune system in general.

[madMUHHH]

Other herbs might be better for your condition (Ginseng). But it's better to see a TCM doctor first. Ginger is very safe to try and it's very cheap. Even it doesn't solve your particular problem, at least it can improve your immune system in general.

 

Speaking about ginseng. I just realized that I still have quite a good amount of Ashvagandha lying around here, which might have lost some potency through lying around for quite a long time, but should still do the trick. Ashvagandha is often mentioned in the same breath as ginseng, is considered a kidney yang tonic and is said to promote deep, dreamless sleep and a general calming and strengthening of the system. It doesn't seem to have any special connections to the liver TCM-wise, but a quick google search brought up this:

 

Ashwagandha appears to have liver-protective effects, according to a 2010 "Journal of Basic Clinical Physiology and Pharmacology" study. The herb's antioxidants, bioflavanoids and other bioactive compounds offer protection by scavenging the free radicals, notes lead study author T. Jeyanthi. This study was done on rats, however, so more research is needed to determine whether the herb offers the same benefit to humans. Seek medical advice if you have a liver ailment, and develop a treatment plan in conjunction with your health care provider.

 

So taking some of that actually seems to be a very reasonable idea to me, even though one probably shouldn't expect miraculous results. Any objections?

[hydrogen]

I'm not familiar with Ashvagandha. From a quick reading online, it seems to be a good herb for you to take.

 

I'm not a TCM doctor. So take my advice with a big grain of salt.

 

You have cold feet and hand. It indicates a lack of qi/blood, which could be caused by either wesk heart or weak lung. You're attending university. I assume you're in your twenty. It's unlikely a result of inbalance of element. It has more to do with ineffient qi/blood.

 

Are you in good health in general? Do you catch cold more often or less? How's your diet? Do you have enough good protein, vegetables and fruits in your diet? Do you do aerobic excercise enough? Remember in china, most qigong masters are also martial art experts.

 

Qigong excersice nerve system more directly. The insomnia is common side effect of incorrect practice. It's way beyond my understanding and ability to comment.

[hydrogen]

I'm having a few senior days. How can I forget "Golden rooster standing on one leg"? It's specificly designed to cure cold feet.

 

You can find the posture in any tai chi form. Bascally you stand on one leg with your eyes closed for two minutes on each leg.

 

It opens up the leg meridian channels and leads the qi/blood down to the feet. practice each day would improve your cold feet problem.

[madMUHHH]

I'm having a few senior days. How can I forget "Golden rooster standing on one leg"? It's specificly designed to cure cold feet.

 

You can find the posture in any tai chi form. Bascally you stand on one leg with your eyes closed for two minutes on each leg.

 

It opens up the leg meridian channels and leads the qi/blood down to the feet. practice each day would improve your cold feet problem.

 

Thanks for that. Will try.

 

 

Oh, and basically I've decided to give this thing about a week or two. A lot of stuff has changed over the last days oncerning my habits, mindset and stuff. So if this is enough to make me notice some decent improvements over the next week, I'll just roll with that. Otherwise I'll see if I can set up an appointment with a TCM doctor.

[madMUHHH]

Are you in good health in general? Do you catch cold more often or less? How's your diet? Do you have enough good protein, vegetables and fruits in your diet? Do you do aerobic excercise enough? Remember in china, most qigong masters are also martial art experts.

 

Oh, and about that. I do think y health is quite decent and that I'm more resistant to minor external influences than most, but that doesn't meen that there still might be some major deep-rooted health issues underneah the surface, as I would assume is the case for pretty much everyone living in our current/modern society.

 

I do make an effort to get a good amoutn of fruit and veggies into my diet and stay away from most processed food. Protein might be lacking a little, not sure and I also don't know whether the food I eat is favourable for my condition from a TCM-point of view, but apart from that, I'd say the basics are covered here.

 

Exercise? I probably didn't get enough decent exercise over the last few months, but I have been slowly getting back into that over the last weeks.