Zou huo ru mo ( 走火入魔 ) "catching fire entering demon"

[寒月 Hanyue]

The longer my time spent in internal arts, and the more I'm involved in Chinese energetic medicine, the more concerned about this I become. And the more I see the results of incorrect qigong practice.

 

I have experienced the fall out from incorrect and stupid physcial training, and I've tasted a little of the same with qigong and meditation. I've watched friends and people I know fall into very strange places and spend YEARS finding themselves again.

 

I look around at who is selling what, and who is teaching what and HOW they sell it or explain it or teach it.

 

Myself personally, I was taught early on to always seek the source, to swim up river, and so finding people teaching Chinese arts with an actual connection and lineage past the the weird developments in both China and the West is what interests me. The more I find repuatable sources and get to learn actual Chinese internal arts, I find they are more simple than many would have you beleive, they take more work than some would have you believe, and they are more grounded and balanced than many would have you beleive.

 

It is a perspective, and it certainly (in this cosmopolitan world) isn't the only one.

 

Yet the more the old Chinese perspective unfolds it is easier to see who only has or understands a part of the whole, but thinks they've got the whole thing. The easier it is to see where chasing only half the picture has taken their personality (I love watching/reading old AND new interviews/articles by qigong teachers). Sure it is only one perspective, and I'm sure many would be more comfortable elsewhere.

 

I think one of the most important things to learn is to be discerning and to have an appreciation for the WAY people present and sell themselves and what they do. Keep an open mind, and appreciate why someone explains something one way when others explain something another. Caveat emptor, there are far more charlatans than the real deal.

 

Oh, and I don't mean charlatan's have no qi, or nothing to teach

 

It seems common sense often gets over ruled by zealousness for doing, being, attaining something. Something that makes one unique or different, or dare I say 'powerful'. Everyone wants results, sure, but appreciate there is a process of development and instead of fixating on the end, why not take time working out where you are, so you know how to proceed without damage? A teacher can help with this, but these days it seems many feel a teacher would only hinder their own natural individual genius

 

Want to be an olympic power lifter? Fine, take a look at your body where do you stand regarding attainment of that? How do you get from here to there? Do you spend time learning proper lifting form and technique? Or rush straight for the lifting rack and load up the plates?

 

Want to have a powerful qi body? Do you even know how to take a look at where you are and what's going on with your qi? Do you spend time building a foundation or jump straight into 'Boost my qi 101' method?

 

No worthwhile teacher or coach of anything doesn't have a process. Sure in the past many 'masters' hid behind keeping secrets or stretching the process out to 'starve' the student.

 

Moving past that doesn't mean throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

Nature has a process. Daoism follows nature. Do we in our practice?

 

The longer I'm on the 'Bums the more the older cats around here that I chat to, tell me they aren't going to post anymore. Many of the people who were worth listening to disappear, they feel drowned out by all the immature and stupid or harmful responses. This happens everywhere and is to an extent to be expected.

 

I just don't think people realise what 氣功偏差 qigong deviation, or 走火入魔 zou huo ru mo actually is or can do.

 

So. With the spirit of helping our fellow bums potentially avoid qigong related problems. Anyone with any stories, personal or of someone you know [please, no second or third hand rumours], that you would like to share to pass on a valuable lesson that may help someone else. Please use this thread to do so.

 

I am NOT asking anyone to talk smack about a teacher, method, or system, i'm sure everyone is intelligent enough to be able to extract the important essentials of the lessons inherent in the stories.

 

I'll get off my soapbox now

 

Best,

Edited November 11, 2012 by snowmonki

[GrandmasterP]

http://jsqg.sport.org.cn/en/index.html

 

A useful site for anyone interested in QiGong

 

HTH

[Marks of Glory]

Nice...

 

I like to go for the ROOTS always also...

 

A funny thing that I have noticed is that most people accept a "guru" very easily.

The first freak indian-looking idiot that appears in their front, they already kneel down and well... kind of funny...

 

Another point, and this one is more subtle, and a kind of a hunch... I believe that most of those Qigong and Yoga teachers of today didn't actually have great acomplishment and enlightments but, nevertheless, the practices that they expound on their books, workshops, etc, are (sometimes) quite profound.

 

A diligent student, normallyt born with an innate capacity of energy manipulation, and a reasonably opened third eye (inner guru) opened, who is lucky enought to access correct knowledge, about energy mechanisms, etc... CAN, by himself, find the path and use the knowledge acquired from those lower acomplishment teachers. As if the force of destiny is using people of lower acomplishment to pass on knowledge to people of higher acomplishment....

 

Ex. One obssesive low acomplishement practitioner goes to China to seek for knowledge. Cool, but there is a balance beacause the real true knowledge is inside. Anyways. He searches, searches, searches and searches for a great great great grand master. and.. eventually.. he finds this master! The master looks at him, sees that his acomplishement is low, and that probably the exercises won't give many spiritual benefit. But anyway, he feels that it is necesssary to pass on his knowledge to the student (who does benefit from the practice also), who wrights a book in english with the info and sells it world wide in amazon. Many people who don't have the time or financial oportunity to find a grand master - teacher, but that are born with great energetic capacity, reads the book and continue their cultivation practice from previous lives.

 

note: 1st - this is a hunch

2nd - by no means I think I am of a higher acomplishment by saying this (maybe destiny is using me - low acomplishemnt - to say something true, just as the example said above.

[GrandmasterP]

Good post, there sure are lots of books, DVDs and related merchandise out there on the market for anyone interested in cultivation.

Mate of mine is a keen fisherman who goes out with just a rod and line and usually beings something home for his dinner from his fishing trips says about all the fancy and expensive fishing tackle on offer....

 

"It is designed to catch fishermen more than it is designed to catch fish"

 

Same goes for a lot of the cultivation merchandise. Still, we are the ones creating the market, if we keep on buying the stuff there will always be someone willing to supply it.

Trouble with a book or DVD is that it can't stop you and point out areas for improvement as a real teacher, in the same room as you; can. The CHQA resources are free, and there's nothing beyond what they give you in any of the books or DVDs on sale claiming to have aunique take on QiGong.

There's no secret to it, simply find a form that suits you and cultivate it.

For life.

[Marks of Glory]

If you have the capacity of creatively practice, and notice to your own body's signs, sooner or later you will feel into the correct practices.

 

ofcourse, you can fuck up alot of times and get some scars,

 

if you are lucky, those scars won't be too damaging.

 

self discovery is this, we are the only ones able to change ourselves.

 

no book, and no masters can do it.

 

but they sure can give us some tools!

 

oh...

 

*I love free media*

[Moonbar]

What a fantastic post - possibly the best ive read in a VERY long time Thankyou Snowmonki.

[Cat Pillar]

I agree with Moonbar, great post snowmonki!

 

Some really good advice in there for me, things I should keep in mind as I jump with both feet into my practice.

[Aetherous]

The link in my signature titled, "Cultivating Heartfulness" is what I have found most healing for qigong deviation...having been through it personally. I was hospitalized twice in the midst of it, and toward the end consulted with a psychologist for a few times. I've been well for about a year and a half now.

 

I suggest that you don't practice qigong (especially dantien methods) while you're messed up. Some advice from people (regardless of whether they are a teacher or immature taobum) may be good, or it may have absolutely devastating results. My opinion is that dantien stuff will be devastating. Trust your own experience, above that of anyone else. Teachers and lineages are meaningless in regard to fixing qigong deviation...unless they have an extensive track record of fixing this issue. I don't know of a single teacher who does. If one claims to, I'd ask them to prove it, for free.

 

Best of luck to those brave souls who experience this.

[Aetherous]

The longer I'm on the 'Bums the more the older cats around here that I chat to, tell me they aren't going to post anymore. Many of the people who were worth listening to disappear, they feel drowned out by all the immature and stupid or harmful responses.

 

Just amateurs thinking they're something special. Best to avoid their advice in regard to this issue...I'm sure they lack real personal experience. And such types care more about being elevated above the rest, rather than actually helping others and contributing to the forum.

[Cat Pillar]

The link in my signature titled, "Cultivating Heartfulness" is what I have found most healing for qigong deviation...having been through it personally. I was hospitalized twice in the midst of it, and toward the end consulted with a psychologist for a few times. I've been well for about a year and a half now.

 

I suggest that you don't practice qigong (especially dantien methods) while you're messed up. Some advice from people (regardless of whether they are a teacher or immature taobum) may be good, or it may have absolutely devastating results. My opinion is that dantien stuff will be devastating. Trust your own experience, above that of anyone else. Teachers and lineages are meaningless in regard to fixing qigong deviation...unless they have an extensive track record of fixing this issue. I don't know of a single teacher who does. If one claims to, I'd ask them to prove it, for free.

 

Best of luck to those brave souls who experience this.

 

First, I want to say I purchased "Cultivating Heartfulness" because of your constant recommendations, and I've been enjoying it. Some good stuff in there, thanks for the recommendation! (Don't know if I already said that somewhere or not, but I did for sure now!)

 

I'm not sure if I completely agree with what you say about doing qigong when "messed up." I think it's heavily dependent on how and why someone is messed up.

 

I probably fit into a mentally "messed up" category due to the extensive severe depression I experienced. But I have always found that practicing qigong makes me feel better and more at peace with myself. Granted, one case does not a rule make, but at least in my instance qigong/neigong have served as medicine to what ails me, rather than exacerbating existing problems.

 

I've no doubt that people with certain mental (and maybe physical conditions) could be harmed by practicing qigong, but I also think that others with certain mental (and definitely physical) conditions can be helped as well.

 

Case-by-case basis, is what I'm tryin' to say.

[Aetherous]

I'm with you. This topic is specifically about how to help someone with qigong deviation (or something to that effect). Glad you're enjoying the book.

Edited November 12, 2012 by turtle shell

[Cat Pillar]

Ah. Well, good point re: the topic.

 

In which case, yeah, I'm with you too.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Personally, I've only had positive experiences with qi gong, and I've never studied face to face with a qi gong instructor.

I think the difference here though is that I only use qi gong as a means towards a better quality of health. Its like learning how to ride a bike versus learning how drive a car or an airplane. When I feel ready to accommodate the commitment needed to "fly" into my life, I will work with an experienced teacher, as it would be a waste of time and dangerous to try to otherwise.

 

In the meantime, I enjoy the benefits that I get from riding through traffic on my bike, and not worrying too much about the distant lands. I still enjoy and benefit from reading what the best "pilots" have said about travel, and often apply it to my little bike rides around town, getting me around a bit faster and smoother. I see the jet planes and the transport trucks, and I know we are doing different things, but to jump in a plane or transport truck on my own and try to drive it, or to do qi gong for several hours a day without proper instruction would just create a huge mess, and I know I'm more likely to get to those distant lands one day if I stick to enjoying my bike rides until I can commit to pilot school; nor can I afford the time to go to pilot school when I'm not prepared to finish it.

 

Common sense is too often that "forest that gets missed for the trees."

[Cat Pillar]

I admire your practical approach, HE.

[Jetsun]

The Chinese arts in general have a gap when it comes to emotional issues, instead of dealing with them directly they turn them into physical organ issues so instead of having anger issues you have a problem with the liver, instead of having anxiety you have problems with the kidneys, there is some use in this approach but it is only one pathway which can easily be used by individuals as a way to try to avoid issues head on and as a means of avoidance and repression of what you need to confront, rather than something benneficial for your health. It is only fairly recently that Chinese hospitals even admitted that mental health and illness is something worth looking at.

 

So its worth being wary about why you are doing your practice and your motivations, we dont live in emotionally stunted Imperial China so their methods of maintaing health may not be ideal for your particular situation.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Jetsun

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thank you to everyone for the positive reception of the thread.

 

Before too much thread drift occurs, may I re-post this from the OP

 

I just don't think people realise what 氣功偏差 qigong deviation, or 走火入魔 zou huo ru mo actually is or can do.

 

So. With the spirit of helping our fellow bums potentially avoid qigong related problems. Anyone with any stories, personal or of someone you know [please, no second or third hand rumours], that you would like to share to pass on a valuable lesson that may help someone else. Please use this thread to do so.

 

I am NOT asking anyone to talk smack about a teacher, method, or system, i'm sure everyone is intelligent enough to be able to extract the important essentials of the lessons inherent in the stories.

 

I want to add, that in reality (or I should say my experience), there is no fixed understanding of zuo huo ru mo. And sometimes it is also easy to attribute anything and everything to your practice, when in fact it has nothing really to do with it.

 

What is true for some is not true for all, but many systems do have a kind of 'if the majority are helped it's all good' attitude, and becoming aware that the minority exists, and you don't know if you'll be one of them, I think is preferable. Then people can make decisions upfront with balanced information.

 

I ask for PERSONAL accounts, there have been many of these over the years. They exist scattered throughout the forum in dark and random corners. The point of this thread is to allow a single place where warnings may be placed. But, as mentioned, please keep them to actual accounts of problems that either you, or someone you know has experienced. Consider it a gift or giving back to the Bum's community, and helping the neophyte seekers who find their way here and want to jump in feet first

 

Best to you all,

[joeblast]

heh...now how does one know when one is experiencing this, I think is a good question to ask. how would a relative beginner differentiate between these phenomenon and other, positive ones?

[寒月 Hanyue]

The Chinese arts in general have a gap when it comes to emotional issues, instead of dealing with them directly they turn them into physical organ issues so instead of having anger issues you have a problem with the liver, instead of having anxiety you have problems with the kidneys, there is some use in this approach but it is only one pathway which can easily be used by individuals as a way to try to avoid issues head on and as a means of avoidance and repression of what you need to confront, rather than something benneficial for your health. It is only fairly recently that Chinese hospitals even admitted that mental health and illness is something worth looking at.

 

So its worth being wary about why you are doing your practice and your motivations, we dont live in emotionally stunted Imperial China so their methods of maintaing health may not be ideal for your particular situation.

 

Hi Jetsun,

 

[Though in danger of creating further thread drift by responding, I feel this topic is best explored at least a little further. However, if anyone wants to debate it to death, can we start a new thread and do so elsewhere?]

 

I remember reading Ken Cohen's critique of this years ago. I have to say I actually disagree.

 

For one, he polarises 'traditional' psychotherapy with TCM

• In regards to treating emotional and mental issues in the West there are many directions, and a 'somatacised' view of the body is popular in dealing with emotional imbalances due to stress, PTSD and to trauma. Many have found treating the mind leads only in circles, but if the body can release, well.
  
• On the other hand the approach to 'shen disorders' in classical Chinese medicine is a deep and thorough subject, and is NOT simply about organ associations. TCM uses zangfu (organ) theory as it's backbone simply because it was the closest of the Chinese medical maps to Western anatomy. Zangfu has therefore become the main theory that everything in TCM is nailed to. This emphasis is in fact not the way the body, nor the systems of qi were viewed.
  
• It has been noted in several disciplines, even Tibetan Buddhism (mostly sought after by Westerners because of its depth of study relating to the mind) that the transference of such understanding from a different culture and time to the modern West is not without problems.
  

I agree with much of what Cohen writes, and in fact with his conclusion. That a balanced view of appreciating the link between mind-body is best, not weighing heavily in one or the other. But his argument is unfortunately based on a falsity and a gross over-simplification of the situation in both China and the West IME.

 

People think, feel, experience and emote differently today. The emotional imbalances we face are unique to our culture. It is not so simple as to say ancient Chinese didn't understand the complexity of emotions. The transference of methods from any culture with a long history is problematic.

 

I also feel it is incorrect to think a culture 'turns' emotions into anything. Like it is WRONG? to experience things a certain way? Isn't that just ethno-centrism?

 

Generally in the 'West' we have a disconnect with our bodies and how we feel and experience many aspects of life. We are slowly finding that what we once saw as 'being in your head/mind' does actually have a direct physiological correlate. So to experience emotions 'mentally' or 'physically' is STILL to experience them.

 

I think "emotionally stunted" is harsh and I'm actually quite surprised at that in your post

 

I do however agree, that just because something is old, or from another culture and all the mystique that can come with that, does NOT mean it is necessarily best or helpful for someone today. Either physically, mentally, or emotionally. It may be wonderfully helpful, but it might not.

 

All the best,

Edited November 12, 2012 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

heh...now how does one know when one is experiencing this, I think is a good question to ask. how would a relative beginner differentiate between these phenomenon and other, positive ones?

 

This is a very good question.

 

Especially without a teacher. If made aware of warning signs, then the neophyte at least knows that those may be a sign of heading down the wrong road. If you aren't even aware problems may occur, why would you stop?

 

My Chinese medical teacher has met and treated many people who passed the line that I'll call common sense, and continued to practice what they were doing regardless of what you might think were obvious warning signs of incorrect practice.

 

It seems, when it comes to cultivation and qigong, people assume weird stuff happening is normal or okay. I'm talking about blisters appearing on the body, red dots from burst blood vessels appearing, pains, postural distortions, dramatic shifts in bladder and bowel function, migraines, genital aches, problems with vision, social functioning and so on.

 

Now I could get the medical text books out and simply list symptoms etc. But people always read that with a distance between themselves and what's written. It isn't 'humanised'. I felt stories from fellow 'bums about what has actually happened, over lists of what may/could/might/ happen. Would make preferable reading.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

A close friend of mine began to practice their meditation more and more. This practice involved some energy-work and also journeying, both within, and going inside to go elsewhere. They were very good at it. Slowly they found that they preferred being 'there' than here. They began to dislike people. They saw other people as beneath them, because others couldn't go and experience what they could. An arrogance and separation emerged and a withdrawing away from people and society. It became a negative spiral. They attracted, or developed protective thought-forms that would chase others away (experienced by enough independant people for verification).

 

5 or so years later, they have found themselves again, are much more balanced, and actually seem happy in the world again.

 

Too much of one kind of work, without a strong enough anchor maintaining balance?

 

Best,

Edited November 12, 2012 by snowmonki

[宁]

Great posts Snowmonki, Great thread, Great work!

 

Huggs,

 

N

[joeblast]

This is a very good question.

I knew you would give a good answer

[寒月 Hanyue]

Another friend of mine. Long term Zen meditator. When I met them, severe lower back issues and chronic pain. They were sitting as they had been instructed, they were told the pain would go away. It didn't, it just embedded itself deeper.

 

This resonated with me. I spent years sitting in pain (thoracic, not lumbar), as I had been taught by my Buddhist and Western meditation teachers. "You just have tension, relax, keep sitting, your body will let go." Years later I found my idiosyncratic spine simply did not fit their teaching model, I had exacerbated my spinal health. I was taught a Daoist way to sit, eventually for the first time I sat pain free. This teacher helped me to understand my spine in sitting. I still have problems from before, but I'm better off.

 

I went through the Daoist sitting with my Zen friend. Their back pain cleared up, and they suddenly found they enjoyed zazen again, they hadn't realised how much they had simply gotten used to trying to block out the pain when they sat. They became more grounded, and began to get more from their Zen work.

 

Just because it's old, just because your teachers are legit, doesn't mean they know what is best for YOU. Maybe you've misunderstood them, maybe they've misunderstood you. If something seems wrong listen, don't ignore it, trust me

 

Best,

Edited November 12, 2012 by snowmonki

[GrandmasterP]

No way are younger folk 'emotionally stunted' over here these days. My generation for sure, stiff upper lip and all that but these days we've turned into Italians almost. Every time you turn on the TV some twonk is emoting or blubbing over a broken finger nail or something equally tragic to them.

I blame Princess Diana, since she bought the farm England sems to have become a cesspit of vicarious emoting.

[Jetsun]

Think I will make another thread to respond to the other issues, don't want to derail this thread any more.

 

Personally I have found many meditations have made me more ungrounded and harder to be around, I wouldnt go as far to say that it was qigong psychosis though. But the issue is that many methods can bring to the surface buried emotions and issues, so they might make you horrible company and angry and give you many dark night's of the soul as a means of purification, so if you confuse this process with unstable practice or psychosis then you may give up before you make it out the other side.