Zou huo ru mo ( 走火入魔 ) "catching fire entering demon"

[寒月 Hanyue]

We are as "strangers in a strange land".

 

Alone together....wandering

[Ya Mu]

After reading this thread here are some thoughts after teaching thousands of practitioners and meeting many others.

 

I think "qigong deviation" is not near as widespread as people make it out to be.

 

The statement someone made that a person who is mentally unstable will be still that way after practicing but amplified can be true but also can be not true. Seriously one should work with their physician and/or therapist before engaging in any life-changing practice.

 

If "qigong deviation" does occur likely it comes from incorrect practice. I disagree with the statement that different methods don't make the difference as the few cases I have seen in clinic and in class were mostly from an "out there" style of qigong and not from a method handed down and taught from master to student but some type of combined thing that someone made up.

 

If a person combines movement methods with internal methods it is much easier to maintain balance. I highly encourage anyone doing internal alone to add movements.

 

The fact is that real qigong practice can change peoples lives. If this brings uncomfortable social awareness it is in most cases not "qigong deviation" but simple awakening. OF COURSE awakening to who you really are then seeing how the majority of humanity behave can be frustrating, giving a person a sense of being alone. The truth is that we are not alone but, right now, in the minority. This is one reason I always highly encourage my students to interact with each other. OF COURSE anyone's preexisting friends are going to have difficulty understanding the serious practitioner. But those others who practice DO understand. This change in social awareness is not a bad thing but a grand thing. If a person wishes for everything to remain the same perhaps they should not engage in any life-changing practice. If a person doesn't wish to interact with more of what everything is and only interact with a very small percentage of perception perhaps they should not engage in a life changing practice.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hi Ya Mu

 

Thanks for chiming in

 

The fact is that real qigong practice can change peoples lives. If this brings uncomfortable social awareness it is in most cases not "qigong deviation" but simple awakening.

 

I agree with this. Yet I also disagree in a sense. I feel anything can be a positive or negative, everything has their shadow. Environmental qi, is simply that, engage with it one way and it is positive and can be beneficial for our energy body and health. Yet it can also impact on us in ways that is detrimental to our energy body and health, hence the xieqi (pernicous influences).

 

Not everyone has a teacher who is upfront about what they are passing on, where it can lead and what the students may experience. Sometimes such awakening can simply be through life and 'spontaneous'. I have met enough people who began to or dramatically awoke to a new perception of themselves and others without a teacher to help them or a support group of like minded people as you say. Their experiences were not always pleasant, and often resulted in years or decades of negative impact upon their lives.

 

Awakening is a wonderful thing, I agree. However I also feel it can be, when mis-understood, and experienced in confusion something else entirely.

 

I personally view any negative impact on a persons emotional, mental, or physical health resulting from changes or shifts in the energy-body or energy systems as 'qi deviation'.

 

The EXACT same changes or shifts in another individuals energy-body or energy systems may result in amazingly wonderful spiritual experiences, or healing of illness, and be positive things.

 

One person's medicine is another's poison,

 

All the best,

Edited November 13, 2012 by snowmonki

[RiverSnake]

Places like the 'Bums, and similar are great in helping a sense of community and allowing people to know they are not alone in experiencing what they are.

 

Indeed, i agree. I write a lot in my journal on the Bums and it has become a way of expressing and sharing my experiences with others without having to deal with awkward social situations in which people will stare at you because what your talking about is way beyond their level of perception and belief system...i don't even try to talk about this stuff with people anymore.

 

I remember reading in Path Notes that one man went through a spontaneous Kundalini Awakening but didn't know what was happening and even though he had a wife and a family he didn't share his experiences with anyone for something like 20 years....until he met Glenn Morris...i am not sure if i would've been able to handle those 20 years.

 

Furthermore although i am no expert atleast i can give my own amateur perspective on this thread....

 

The path can be a very uncomfortable place to be (at times)....especially when purging oneself of a lot of negative emotions and thought programs....its like getting broken down in the military, but there's no drill instructor yelling in your face....its a very slow and subltle process where day by day you seem to lose more and more of "yourself"....for obvious reasons this can be a very scary thing....expecially for those whom as Taoiseasy said lack "Virtue" and are practicing to become some kind of all powerful demi-god and all the other stupid reasons out there.

 

Also i think there is a fine line between psychological illness and qigong induced mental illnesses...if you ask your average psychotherapist they will say that almost everyone suffers from some kind of personality disorder.....the qigong probably brought something up that was already there and it just takes some real sturdiness to deal with all that garbage (ofcourse people whom are psychotic should proabbly not be practicing)...i think it takes an experienced teacher whom knows the personality and weaknesses of his student in order to correctly asses the situation and understand the difficulties the student is going through....ofcourse if one has physical symptoms...blisters...etc...then that is also something that a teacher or TCM doctor should probably address.

 

But hey that's just my amateur perspective....feel free to rip it too shreds.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited November 13, 2012 by OldGreen

[GrandmasterP]

Synchronicity being what it is I just had a chat to a techie consultant here at work who was fixing my computer. Young lad (they are all young compared to me but late twenties early thirties I'd guess).

Turns out he's a judoka who started out as a kid, left it alone for years then took it up again five years ago.

He was saying how the more serious he has become at it the more his social life changed to the extent now that he has a completely new set of friends and does not go out to places he once enjoyed socialising in as he said

'It all seems very empty and a waste of time'.

[skydog]

.

Edited November 13, 2012 by sinansencer

[寒月 Hanyue]

I was just assuming that because I wrote a thread on "no holiness, no repression" and then a couple of threads popped up....they could be slightly addressed to me in a subtle way. And if it was I wanted to address that.

 

You ain't Kevin Bacon, not yet

 

I don't know about anyone else on the forum, but If I wanted to address anything to you because of a thread or post you'd made, I'd do it openly either on the forum or through pm. Like I have in this thread. I don't play subtle games with hints, don't see the point.

 

So no this thread or it's creation has nothing to do with a post or thread of yours

 

Hope your practice is still going well

 

All the best,

Edited November 13, 2012 by snowmonki

[GrandmasterP]

Kevin Bacon?

[寒月 Hanyue]

hey

 

Indeed, i agree. I write a lot in my journal on the Bums and it has become a way of expressing and sharing my experiences with others without having to deal with awkward social situations in which people will stare at you because what your talking about is way beyond their level of perception and belief system...i don't even try to talk about this stuff with people anymore.

 

I'll have to read some of your journal

 

I remember reading in Path Notes that one man went through a spontaneous Kundalini Awakening but didn't know what was happening and even though he had a wife and a family he didn't share his experiences with anyone for something like 20 years....until he met Glenn Morris...i am not sure if i would've been able to handle those 20 years.

 

I have met people who went through varying intensities of this from a few years, through to decades.

 

One, wouldn't/couldn't leave their house. Their energy body was so wide open they simply got hit with all the negative crap from others and couldn't cope. They had tried fixing or reversing it for a long time, they had (at that point in time) not found a way to do so. They were like that for years. I have no idea what practices they'd done.

 

My friend mentioned before, had quite a mild version in comparison.

 

I always loved Doc because he was so open and honest about the negative. I had had a strong spirit meeting early on, after being introduced to meditation, although not visually scary or threatening, the intensity and gravitas of the experience, scared the crap out of me as my adrenals hit overdrive, I blacked out and came to hours later. I was put off sitting for a long time after that. So when I was shown Doc's books it hit a chord

 

Furthermore although i am no expert atleast i can give my own amateur perspective on this thread....

 

Give away

 

The path can be a very uncomfortable place to be (at times)....especially when purging oneself of a lot of negative emotions and thought programs....its like getting broken down in the military, but there's no drill instructor yelling in your face....its a very slow and subltle process where day by day you seem to lose more and more of "yourself"....for obvious reasons this can be a very scary thing....expecially for those whom as Taoiseasy said lack "Virtue" and are practicing to become some kind of all powerful demi-god and all the other stupid reasons out there.

 

You mean you AREN'T trying to be a powerful demi-god!? And you're on this forum...

 

I can't wonder how much the process is affected by the 'spiritual materialism' and jumping around from qigong method to qigong method that goes on??

 

Also i think there is a fine line between psychological illness and qigong induced mental illnesses...if you ask your average psychotherapist they will say that almost everyone suffers from some kind of personality disorder.....the qigong probably brought something up that was already there and it just takes some real sturdiness to deal with all that garbage (ofcourse people whom are psychotic should proabbly not be practicing)...i think it takes an experienced teacher whom knows the personality and weaknesses of his student in order to correctly asses the situation and understand the difficulties the student is going through....ofcourse if one has physical symptoms...blisters...etc...then that is also something that a teacher or TCM doctor should probably address.

 

I certainly agree, what can appear to be the same on the outside is not necessarily what is going on underneath.

 

I have also seen however, that those into meditation or qigong will easily jump on that as being the cause for any and all negativity in their life! Reminds me of the 'oh it's your chakras!' hahaha

 

I agree with Ya Mu that people should NOT ignore their physician and or therapist/mental health care. I also think they should have a sensible and well experienced teacher who they can talk to.

 

I agree, and can count the number of teachers I feel fit into that category on one hand easily. Most I've met don't go look at who is in front of them at all

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

Kevin Bacon?

Six degrees of Kevin Bacon. It's based off of the idea of six degrees of separation, or basically the idea that everyone can be related back to Kevin Bacon.

 

There is also a new advert in the UK that stars Kevin Bacon and makes reference to the six-degress thing, it's advertising a phone or internet. I don't watch much tv but saw it yesterday, I used to play the six-degress game with my film studies friends over beer, pizza and a movie marathon so it made me smile

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hi snowmonki,

 

Seems that there are few meaningful topics that folks find important in addressing in your thread.

 

Luckily, I have not experienced any qigong deviation. However, during the few times I have had something very unusual happen, either physically or spiritually/psychically, I will tell you, my doctor was the last person on my mind to go to. Perhaps because I am already in good physical/mental shape. Rather, I was very fortunate to KNOW that my teacher could help me out on these rare occasions. ["Hey doc, this entity visited me last night and now I have pain in my abdomen that hasn't abated." "A WHAT visited you?" **writes script to visit the mental health counselor**]

 

It has been valuable for me to add additional support (teachers/mentors/healers) who have high level energetic capacities and deep insight, who can address any concerns as a result of the deeper layers & deeper shifts one encounters from practice or lifestyle.

 

Thanks for initiating this thread.

 

Hey RV,

 

It is tricky to be sure. It is all too easy to only view things through the glasses we each wear. You know, 'frog in the well' syndrome.

 

A medical doctor will see what they see,

A TCM practitioner will see what they see,

A qigong teacher will see what they see,

A psychiatrist will see what they see,

A nei/shen gong teacher will see what they see,

 

I think having options and support is all you can do. Then you can at least move forward with options and get the support and help you need. Having a discerning teacher is, In my most humble and honest opinion, paramount for pursing real neigong that is going to open you up to all kinds of fun stuff! I still find it odd people just want to be e-mailed a 'secret manual'

 

A side story. I know an elderly person. They come from an ethnic background that has some folk belief and superstition. They began hallucinating, they had good days and bad days. Their hallucinations were not just visual but physically felt by them too. They also fitted with old cultural ideas. On the good days when they were more self aware, they were aware they had been hallucinating and felt they were losing their mind.They started to believe they were being affected by spirits. The family were troubled. Everything being experienced fitted within that 'cultural' paradigm. Knowing there is a reality to this, can you discount it? I tentatively began to help, and the qigong would give them a few days peace.

 

I also looked into their medical history, I found something that didn't fit. Got the family to have the specialist change the medication they were on. Bingo, hallucinations stopped.

 

I don't discount any possibility, Eastern, Western, medical, esoteric and so on. To me that is the beauty of living now in THIS time

 

Medical qigong with western medicine = medicine of the future

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

Good reminder to folks with pre-existing conditions to be especially careful taking up energy practices.

 

Indeed. Although the person I mentioned was not practicing anything, they were just a patient.

[GrandmasterP]

 

Six degrees of Kevin Bacon. It's based off of the idea of six degrees of separation, or basically the idea that everyone can be related back to Kevin Bacon.

 

OIC

Mrs GP has explained who Mr Bacon is.

[Aetherous]

On the psychosis aspect of qi deviation...

 

Some of the best advice a friend gave me was, "Just pretend you're ignorant of everything."

 

"Synchronicity is the experience of two or more events that are apparently causally unrelated or unlikely to occur together by chance, yet are experienced as occurring together in a meaningful manner."

 

- http://en.wikipedia....i/Synchronicity

 

Understand that while it can be interesting and magickal to think about synchronic events that happen (for instance, SunLover recently said "the sun is out so I must be saying something right" as if the sky was solely connected to his words alone), these are always meaningless. A "grasping for the wind". It doesn't mean anything in regard to your destiny if the sun is out or if it's cloudy...that's just nature's fluctuations. Sometimes there may seem to be a connection, but other times not...don't be like a gambler and only pay attention to when it's working...pay attention to when it doesn't work as well.

 

Do not connect the dots! Do not search for secrets of the universe.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPjhEsZr8Nw

 

Synchronic events are causally unrelated (so not directly connected by anything, by definition)...and the meaning is added by you rather than inherent in the happening. It is truly just coincidence. The meaning derived is truly just delusion. If you're honest with yourself, you will find that your magick is fallible...your meaning won't always work...in that case, accept that you've been delusional and let go of all of the wild ideas for your own sake. The sun doesn't come out when you're saying something right, and clouds don't come out when you're saying something wrong!

 

So a way out of some types of psychosis (delusional thinking), is to finally realize how the search for meaning is harmful.

 

(it's very freeing when your virtue or happiness doesn't depend on random signs happening in the macrocosm)

Edited November 13, 2012 by turtle shell

[skydog]

You ain't Kevin Bacon, not yet

 

I don't know about anyone else on the forum, but If I wanted to address anything to you because of a thread or post you'd made, I'd do it openly either on the forum or through pm. Like I have in this thread. I don't play subtle games with hints, don't see the point.

 

So no this thread or it's creation has nothing to do with a post or thread of yours

 

Hope your practice is still going well

 

All the best,

 

well you read my reply despite deleting it within a minute..if im not taking it further off topic, I think your past post about shifting the eyes to the dan tien to take away the lens could be good for me.

 

And yes my practice is well, best wishes to you to

 

sinan

[寒月 Hanyue]

well you read my reply despite deleting it within a minute.

 

What can I say, working in the offic on the pc all day needs its distractions

 

if im not taking it further off topic, I think your past post about shifting the eyes to the dan tien to take away the lens could be good for me.

 

Shhh. it's a secret

 

And yes my practice is well, best wishes to you to

 

sinan

 

Good good

 

All the best,

[Ya Mu]

Hi Ya Mu

 

Thanks for chiming in

 

 

 

I agree with this. Yet I also disagree in a sense. I feel anything can be a positive or negative, everything has their shadow. Environmental qi, is simply that, engage with it one way and it is positive and can be beneficial for our energy body and health. Yet it can also impact on us in ways that is detrimental to our energy body and health, hence the xieqi (pernicous influences).

 

Not everyone has a teacher who is upfront about what they are passing on, where it can lead and what the students may experience. Sometimes such awakening can simply be through life and 'spontaneous'. I have met enough people who began to or dramatically awoke to a new perception of themselves and others without a teacher to help them or a support group of like minded people as you say. Their experiences were not always pleasant, and often resulted in years or decades of negative impact upon their lives.

 

Awakening is a wonderful thing, I agree. However I also feel it can be, when mis-understood, and experienced in confusion something else entirely.

 

I personally view any negative impact on a persons emotional, mental, or physical health resulting from changes or shifts in the energy-body or energy systems as 'qi deviation'.

 

The EXACT same changes or shifts in another individuals energy-body or energy systems may result in amazingly wonderful spiritual experiences, or healing of illness, and be positive things.

 

One person's medicine is another's poison,

 

All the best,

Well, in that sense, most everyone out there has a "q deviation" whether they practice qigong or not. We can take most anyone off the street and find energy stagnations where xie qi is residing and it can be due to mental, physical, or spiritual. It is one of the very things that the long-term practice of qigong can address and that the practice of medical qigong will address. Everyone is subject to "external pernicious influences".

 

Although I don't perceive change as a "deviation", that is not to say that I haven't seen many cases of improper energetic practices leading to physical and emotional complications; I would say the majority of these are usually from what some call qigong and from other energetic systems that don't understand xie qi or that follow a non-natural forced energetic development path. Certainly one's own state of being should always be taken into consideration, but when problems arrive from these sort of practices I don't consider them a deviation but problems created form straight out practicing of methods that do not follow natural laws of energetics.

But of course it does depend on one's definition of "qigong deviation", doesn't it, and I do see where you are coming from with this subject.

 

Was glad to see you found the simple problem of the patient who was having problems from taking a medication. Far too many "alternative" or complementary practitioners seem to want to throw in the esoteric when it is a simple duck walking. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it dang well most probably is a duck and not "oh your 2nd chakra is out of balance" type of bullshit.

Holistic means we look at the whole. One of my points is that to throw the term "qigong deviation" out there is, in many cases, perhaps not looking at the whole - there could be a duck walking around somewhere. Even if the qigong practice did bring the quack to the surface.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Well, in that sense, most everyone out there has a "q deviation" whether they practice qigong or not.

 

This is kind of my point, that people only assume such things occur ONCE they start practicing, but don't take stock of where they are when they encounter a practice. They assume the teacher will take the responsibility, and drop their own

 

When does "qigong deviation" start? Is this why many teachers write off accounts or complaints by students when things go wrong? "Wasn't my method, there was soemthing wrong with them already", kinds sucks really

 

I agree on the more forceful methods, and I know that is what qigong deviation refers to in the strictest sense of the term. But felt that starting a thread and then laying out definitions of qigong deviation would simply lead to the usualy dabates about what people think is or is not the correct definition. I hoped by leaving that, people could contribute any accounts without going there as much. Oops on my part??

 

Although I don't perceive change as a "deviation"

 

No, indeed. I don't see change as deviation either. I see change as change, but change can be either for positive or negative. Which are perceptions we associate with what we like or want. In medical terms change that is 'negative' is "deviation", that is how I have come to understand it at least. Of course it does bring up the story of the old guy (really how many old guy stories are there!!);

 

"There is a Daoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "May be," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "May be," answered the farmer. The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "Maybe" said the farmer."

 

Far too many "alternative" or complementary practitioners seem to want to throw in the esoteric when it is a simple duck walking. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it dang well most probably is a duck and not "oh your 2nd chakra is out of balance" type of bullshit.

 

Haha Thats why I like your perspective on medical qigong.

 

Holistic means we look at the whole. One of my points is that to throw the term "qigong deviation" out there is, in many cases, perhaps not looking at the whole - there could be a duck walking around somewhere. Even if the qigong practice did bring the quack to the surface.

 

Noted. All the best,

Edited November 13, 2012 by snowmonki

[Ya Mu]

This is kind of my point, that people only assume such things occur ONCE they start practicing, but don't take stock of where they are when they encounter a practice. They assume the teacher will take the responsibility, and drop their own

 

When does "qigong deviation" start? Is this why many teachers write off accounts or complaints by students when things go wrong? "Wasn't my method, there was soemthing wrong with them already", kinds sucks really

 

I agree on the more forceful methods, and I know that is what qigong deviation refers to in the strictest sense of the term. But felt that starting a thread and then laying out definitions of qigong deviation would simply lead to the usualy dabates about what people think is or is not the correct definition. I hoped by leaving that, people could contribute any accounts without going there as much. Oops on my part??

 

 

 

No, indeed. I don't see change as deviation either. I see change as change, but change can be either for positive or negative. Which are perceptions we associate with what we like or want. In medical terms change that is 'negative' is "deviation", that is how I have come to understand it at least. Of course it does bring up the story of the old guy (really how many old guy stories are there!!);

 

"There is a Daoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "May be," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "May be," answered the farmer. The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "Maybe" said the farmer."

 

 

 

Haha Thats why I like your perspective on medical qigong.

 

 

 

Noted. All the best,

Yes, you make some good points. It is a 2-way street. The student needs to assume responsibility and the teacher needs to do everything possible to make sure the student "gets it" - at least that is what I strive for. I think possibly the point you make about some teachers writing off some student complaints is possibly due to their own training. Many energetic imbalances are not going to be corrected, especially in the short term, by simply showing a person how to breathe or simply showing them a movement. This is probably one reason what you point out happens - they don't know how to correct the problem. NOT that all problems can be corrected, but many can.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Yes, you make some good points. It is a 2-way street. The student needs to assume responsibility and the teacher needs to do everything possible to make sure the student "gets it" - at least that is what I strive for.

 

Abolutely, responsibility should go both ways. I have found though, the reality all too often is not quite there yet unfortunately. But it's why I have the teachers I do.

 

I came to the opinion years ago, that simplistically I can consider three things if my practice is not going where I feel/want/think it should. Whether that is simply not moving forward, or if the outcomes seem unwanted.

• It's the system/method:
  
• It's the teacher:
  
• It's me:
  

There are various nuances to do with each of the above I won't bother going in to here.

 

Though I will say, that what can appear to be one of the above, will change given time

 

I think possibly the point you make about some teachers writing off some student complaints is possibly due to their own training. Many energetic imbalances are not going to be corrected, especially in the short term, by simply showing a person how to breathe or simply showing them a movement. This is probably one reason what you point out happens - they don't know how to correct the problem. NOT that all problems can be corrected, but many can.

 

That's a very good point. How much are we treating the person in front of us, and how much do we project our expectations and models of understanding. Suppose it helps to practice the neigong and burn away those filters you've mentioned

 

All the best,

Edited November 15, 2012 by snowmonki

[theurgy]

So a way out of some types of psychosis (delusional thinking), is to finally realize how the search for meaning is harmful.

(it's very freeing when your virtue or happiness doesn't depend on random signs happening in the macrocosm)

 

First of all this has been the most productive thread in many a moon! I try to stay out of most of the fruitless discussions on here but this thread is a great public service.

 

The point that Scott makes above is VERY important to apprehend for the beginning student.

The search for meaning and the identification and attachment that comes from thinking in this way can lead to a kind of psychosis in its own right, even without any cultivation practice. Firstly it exacerbates the ego. This can lead to a kind of "cosmic paranoia" which can lead to dark places mentally ESPECIALLY if one is not cultivating virtue.

 

Another issue that I feel it is important to bring up is hallucinogens. Many of us have experimented with them. IME as well as that of thousands of others I have met, it is not wise to combine these with any cultivation practice. Sure, some people SEEM to be doing just fine with them and I can hear them disagreeing already: "what a bummer! The squares don't understand psychedelics man! It's like totally shamanic dude!"

 

Problem is these substances lead one to direct confrontation with the "dweller on the threshold"--the repository for all one's repressed fears. Many don't survive an unprepared encounter with this "entity." Those who do frequently develop a form of PTSD or simply take up drinking, gambling or pornography as a response to the crisis. Look to the survivors of the 60s counterculture for ample examples of this.

 

This is a critical issue in the spiritual community. So many "practitioners" are nothing more than potheads sifting through their repressed childhood fantasies and calling it spiritual. My personal advise is keep your mind and body clear, seek to serve humanity and make every day a victorious effort to evolve spiritually for the benefit of all beings: those born, about to be born, living, dead, human, animal, god or demon and you will avoid "qi deviation" symptoms.

 

My best.

 

+theurgy+

[宁]

First of all this has been the most productive thread in many a moon! I try to stay out of most of the fruitless discussions on here but this thread is a great public service.

 

+theurgy+

 

I agree. I used to come often to this forum for new and interesting info's and perspective, but recently this place has gone... wow... I mean I don't know why I come here anymore.

Many of the folks that used to contribute with meaningful insights aren't posting anymore, and I don't blame them, it takes alot of energy to battle ideas with trolls and the like.

 

Pity common sense don't sell that well...