What does standing meditation do to/for you?

[宁]

no worries steve, i sometimes have problems communicating too

 

yet, to my knowledge, neigong training is just as intense..

[宁]

Agreed. When I spent two weeks (nothing, I know) training with a teacher in China, the first time he had me do ZZ, he left me for 45 minutes with a bowl of water on my head...

 

The water thing he only did that once, I think to give me a feel for pushing my head up, and keeping straight up & down, but other than that, that was the routine every morning. He said, through an interpreter, when I mentioned that was the longest I had stood in ZZ by probably 25 minutes up until that morning, "now you'll be able to start holding it even longer".

 

i think he was still merciful to you haha that's how they put it, anything under 45 min is useless

glad you could share, I'd be happy to hear more about your ZZ training in China if you're ok with that

[i am]

Honestly there isn't much to talk about. I trained with a teacher and his disciple for two weeks. We learned a couple forms, I did a LOT of bagua walking, lots of kicks and running and stretching, and did ZZ every morning, first thing. Really, two weeks just isn't enough for anything...He made a couple adjustments here and there, but really didn't try to get much across verbally on what I should be doing. Probably if I went back and showed real interest in becoming a student of his, I'd learn more...but who knows! I didn't really even scratch the surface of his teaching, I'm sure.

[doc benway]

no worries steve, i sometimes have problems communicating too

 

yet, to my knowledge, neigong training is just as intense..

Neigong training is very intense but most give up fairly quickly.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Teachers leave you to practice because IT'S BORING and they have better things to do. They set you up, and let you get on with it. Doesn't matter what kind of practice, they aren't going to pamper to you! You either have it, or you don't, and you need to find that in your practice.

 

Kids are NOT taught the same as Adults. Never have been. To do so shows a dis-connect with who is in front of you. Doesn't mean some adults aren't taught like children, or some children aren't taught like adults. It isn't an either or situation.

 

There are people who advocate watching tv etc to beginners, it helps distract you. But please be aware that this is NOT the practice. It is a preliminary stage to help you get to the point where you can BEGIN your practice.

 

No form of standing, Buddhist, Daoist, Martial, Medical whatever is about dis-engaging the consicous awareness from the body.

 

Learning to make the body stand is just that. Which is fine if that is your aim and goal. However, it has very little skill cross-over with anything else.

 

For example, running.

• run cross country
  
• even better run through woods
  
• or, go to a gym get on a treadmill and switch off to MTV
  

You can argue that at least the treadmill means your 'body' or cardiovascular system is working, but when you could be killing two birds with one stone and getting SO much more from your time, why do anything less??

 

Learning to have the mind consciously engaged WITH the body, nei wai he yi (inner and outer as ONE) is preferable and has much greater carry over and expansion into other skills and developments. It is just that the methodology used to do this is what varies, but it matters little which method you use.

 

Hence you have some blend Daoist neigong into standing, some use Ch'an.

 

If switching the mind off during practice using tv made the practice better, you'd find zen monks and Daoist priests sat infront of the tv.

 

All the best,

Edited November 21, 2012 by snowmonki

[Celestial]

If there's any truth to Malcolm Gladwell's theory that it takes 10,000 hours to become a MASTER at something, then that should put it in perspective for anyone wishing to pursue a path of perfection(enlightenment).

 

This is is part of the reason why training begins at an early age. Kids not only have more time, they absorb and store information better than adults. For instance, learning a new language.

 

Most people either don't have the time to commit to this kind of training or they simply lack discipline; which is why so many Masters are frustrated with Westerners.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Celestial

[ChiDragon]

sometimes it's difficult to get personal experiences across, and rising Qi has most certainly not been the only one that I've encountered with the ZZ,

I feel somewhat embarassed to say this, because you guys put alot of thought and compassion into giving advice, but it wasn't really that necessary..

 

I trust my own experience and feelings, and I'm opened to compare and share notes with others'.

 

Speaking of which,

 

I never involved mental activity into ZZ, sometimes I'd just watch TV or a movie and just standing ~ it was an experiment that proved that at least to me ZZ is about standing (with the right adjustments though) period.

 

I have reasons to suspect that is the way most of the grand masters of Taiji or Wushu in China learned as kids

And as kids, their training would be measured Not in minutes, but in Chinese hours, that is, cycles of two hours.

 

The idea of 认真 in the Chinese tradition is really tough and harsh training, our Western attitude is way way too mild.

Standing for 5 -20 minutes in 站桩， in China...?

 

I exaggerated just a tiny bit, to get the idea across... a huge imbalance between effort and expectations..

 

 

Edit just to complete the idea: there's nothing 自然 about it, or mild and sweet in real training to them, there's alot of forcing and straining and pain, that you have to outgrow and step over your own limitations. That's how you develop, that's how you grow. Please do not confuse the stuff that the Chinese teachers teach to the Westerners, with the real training that they themselves have undergone (and possibly teach their on offstprings in).

 

 

There is no more to be said. I just want to emphasize that ZZ is only a simple method to strengthen the legs muscles. Thus there is really nothing else more than that. Lots of people said they do not have time to practice. The reason I agreed to do ZZ by standing in front of the TV is to take advantage of the time to do something meaningful. It is better than sitting down on a sofa and become a couch potato.

 

I know people have learn a lot of methods and theories, but tried to apply them all in one was not the thing to do. Each method or theory is standing on its own. It is not necessary to combine them together to expect a better result than what the original method was intended.

 

Some people are mixing Taoist thinking and Buddhist thinking and thought that was a good thing to do without having a thorough understanding of the philosophy behind each method. For example, some people might think that by applying the Buddhist Ch'an into ZZ was doing oneself a big favor. Anyway, if one really understand what ZZ and Ch'an was all about, then, one wouldn't have this kind of dubious thinking. Finally, I had read lots of posts here mixing the TCM terminologies in describing martial art by using Chi as a single unit as energy to treat it as a blanket cover for all areas.

Edited November 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[寒月 Hanyue]

As per usual your lack of comprehension shines through.

 

As does your lack of appreciation of what your fellow country men have been teaching for a VERY long time. And those that continue to do so today.

 

Having read many of your posts over the years and your "insights" gleaned from that short period of time with your taiji teacher decades ago and your reading, and having watched your youtube videos of what you consider "taiji" and "qigong". I have NO doubts in my mind who's teachings, ideas, and practices I will be paying attention to.

 

ZZ simply for your leg muscles , sheesh

 

Best,

Edited November 21, 2012 by snowmonki

[ChiDragon]

I grant you that your only held back is on my short period of time with my Tai Ji teacher. However, my long period of time reading does not discredit my advanced comprehension with the updated continuous knowledge. Reading updated materials from knowledgeable people is most comprehensible than learning from a teacher with limited ancient mythologies and no modern science knowledge. What I meant to say is; if the basic fundamental were understood, then why not simplify it instead of complicating it to something that is beyond reasonable doubt.

[i am]

Teachers leave you to practice because IT'S BORING and they have better things to do. They set you up, and let you get on with it. Doesn't matter what kind of practice, they aren't going to pamper to you! You either have it, or you don't, and you need to find that in your practice.

 

 

This does make sense. And I've made a lot of "realizations" during self practice. Sometimes they're right, and sometimes they're wrong, but they cause me to ask questions, and feel a lot more ownership of my progress. It's always nice when something "clicks", even if it ends up being incorrect. It always leads to a deeper understanding of what I'm doing.

[doc benway]

I would like to nominate this for best post of 2012:

 

I grant you that your only held back is on my short period of time with my Tai Ji teacher. However, my long period of time reading does not discredit my advanced comprehension with the updated continuous knowledge. Reading updated materials from knowledgeable people is most comprehensible than learning from a teacher with limited ancient mythologies and no modern science knowledge. What I meant to say is; if the basic fundamental were understood, then why not simplify it instead of complicating it to something that is beyond reasonable doubt.

 

Great stuff!

_/\_

[Gemstone]

My qigong cultivation started with Lam Kam Chuens books, and the value shows in every form I have practiced.

My advise is to not complicate things. Allways check alignments and tension from top down and tuck the pelvis,

this will make the relaxation and energy flow downward, and will in time (years) be instantaneous, like a ripple

moving through the body.

 

Take the weight down the front of the lower part of the spine, but on the backside of the knees.

 

These stances build a lot of energy even when they are done badly (as in the beginning), so allways try to improve

on them even when you think you´ve got it.

 

I still stand everyday (although the stances are from another school)

 

.

[Walker]

ChiDragon = 门外汉说外行话. A shame it will be if the professorly attitude he affects here convinces some beginners.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Walker

[doc benway]

 

 

I like the thoughtful and detailed reply, Steve,

 

@much appreciated

 

I'm a type that likes being inside the body and body oriented practices, and would never abandon that for living in the head, it's too damn limiting,

what I was pointing at are some factors of my personality that could be favouring rising Qi as it is,

sometimes it's difficult to get personal experiences across, and rising Qi has most certainly not been the only one that I've encountered with the ZZ,

I feel somewhat embarassed to say this, because you guys put alot of thought and compassion into giving advice, but it wasn't really that necessary..

 

@I agree, but you started it.

 

I trust my own experience and feelings, and I'm opened to compare and share notes with others'.

 

Speaking of which,

 

I never involved mental activity into ZZ, sometimes I'd just watch TV or a movie and just standing ~ it was an experiment that proved that at least to me ZZ is about standing (with the right adjustments though) period.

I remembered something I read in a book about a Taiji master's child, that would confess: father makes me stand like this everyday for an hour, and I have to comply else he just beats me. Haha. Do you imagine that kid focusing of specific points and breathing patterns? But his father knew, he just had to stand, as a tree, and the inner strenght will grow with time.

 

I have reasons to suspect that is the way most of the grand masters of Taiji or Wushu in China learned as kids

 

@ I imagine you're right about that - my shifu pushed me hard but not China. OTOH, my sensei beat us like back home. I wonder - is it worth it to exploit and abuse our children for our ideals?

 

And as kids, their training would be measured Not in minutes, but in Chinese hours, that is, cycles of two hours.

The idea of 认真 in the Chinese tradition is really tough and harsh training, our Western attitude is way way too mild.

Standing for 5 -20 minutes in 站桩， in China...? Is that a joke? But we here think that's how we're 'training' to become immortals or have superpowers.

 

@ kind of embarrassing, isn't it?

 

I exaggerated just a tiny bit, to get the idea across... a huge imbalance between effort and expectations..

 

 

Edit just to complete the idea: there's nothing 自然 about it, or mild and sweet in real training to them, there's alot of forcing and straining and pain, that you have to outgrow and step over your own limitations. That's how you develop, that's how you grow. Please do not confuse the stuff that the Chinese teachers teach to the Westerners, with the real training that they themselves have undergone (and possibly teach their on offstprings in).

 

@ no song, no jing, no ziran: no neigong

Neigong begins with jing

And you can't force neigong, regardless of age.

It develops through ziran or not at all.

 

Anyway, this is still Just my 0,2's

... Mine 2

 

 

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon = 门外汉说外行话. A shame it will be if the professorly attitude he affects here convinces some beginners.

 

LOL Walker.....

 

门外汉 are always the majority......

[宁]

@steve

My perspective on neigong and Chinese daoist cultivation in general is nowadays more in line with the little I had the priviledge of understanding and witnessing from an authentic lineage. It is so far away from what we think we do here, that there's no term of comparison.

Walker's post reminded me of the saying: 门内看行道,门外看热闹.

Of course I try to avoid thinking in absolutes, and acknowledge that there are many ways to do the same thing, with the condition of learning it from a competent source.

 

If memory serves, Liping described his training during childhood as 'torture'. Many of the nowadays olimpic athletes would say more or less the same. So where's the Ziran in it?

Edited November 22, 2012 by 宁

[doc benway]

@steve

My perspective on neigong and Chinese daoist cultivation in general is nowadays more in line with the little I had the priviledge of understanding and witnessing from an authentic lineage. It is so far away from what we think we do here, that there's no term of comparison.

Walker's post reminded me of the saying: 门内看行道,门外看热闹.

Of course I try to avoid thinking in absolutes, and acknowledge that there are many ways to do the same thing, with the condition of learning it from a competent source.

 

If memory serves, Liping described his training during childhood as 'torture'. Many of the nowadays olimpic athletes would say more or less the same. So where's the Ziran in it?

I've been lucky enough to have training in an authentic lineage.

崑崙仙蹤派

 

Neigong for a child is torture, for an adult it can be as well.

The difference is that the adult chooses to be there, in every moment.

That's why so few progress very far.

 

What is a human if not ziran?

What is Dao if not ziran?

How can skillful cultivation be otherwise?

[宁]

Well, I'd take them as proper questions, and not rethorical ones ~ however it's still a tall order, for the little that I know.

[Marks of Glory]

I also notice the whole world in front of me going almost completely dark even though my eyes are open the entire time.

 

happens with me too

[doc benway]

Well, I'd take them as proper questions, and not rethorical ones ~ however it's still a tall order, for the little that I know.

They are proper questions, and neigong is the science to explore them, at least for me.

[ChiDragon]

I would like to nominate this for best post of 2012:

Great stuff!

_/\_

 

I don't know what the last symbol means. I am sure it wasn't resulted from your long term practice. Perhaps more practice might be needed in self discipline for the choice of words to express your truest feelings.

[doc benway]

_/\_

 

This is a symbol for praying hands or a loving bow.... Namaste

It means that I genuinely enjoyed your post and your sincerity and enthusiasm and that which is divine in me is acknowledging and bowing to that which is divine in you. At the same time, I am chuckling at how seriously you are taking yourself and your delusion of authority, and how deeply you are rooted in the beliefs and story you have created through your reading and life experience.

And I acknowledge that I am doing the same.

Be well, oh happily misguided one!

From one clueless soul to another.

 

[ChiDragon]

My apologies. It was a pleasant surprise to hear something in a 180 degree turn. I had misread your compliment metaphorically in a negative way. I should have known that westerners always do say what that meant not like us, sometimes, Chinese say positive things in a negative way and vice versa. Thus that was where the common miscommunication between the east and the west.

 

Anyway, I am glad that we have come to a mutual understanding.......

 

 

_/\_ Namaste to you too.......

Edited November 22, 2012 by ChiDragon

[chenplayer]

Just wanted to ask if this is a normal phenomenon. I just started practicing standing pole and literally in the first few minutes i get this uncontrollable shaking from my legs. Its like both my right and left leg are alternating in the shaking like i am almost running in place but not really. lol. I do not know if that makes sense? Is my stance off? Is this a good or bad thing? Thank You for your time, any info would be much appreciated.

[ChiDragon]

chenpalyer....

 

It is completely normal in the beginning because your leg muscles had never taken this kind of punishment before. In your case, your legs muscles are lack of exercise. It would be difficult to take that much stress all the sudden. Therefore, you have to go slow in bending the angle between the upper and lower legs at the knee cap. If you practice the stance everyday, then increase the bending angle progressively in weeks or months. Until you can bend your legs to 45 degrees with the knees passed the toes and able to stand for a long time without having the legs shaken and no pain, then you are considered to be accomplished the course of Zuan Zhuang.

Edited November 25, 2012 by ChiDragon