adept Posted November 25, 2012 Until you can bend your legs to 45 degrees with the knees passed the toes and able to stand for a long time without having the legs shaken and no pain, then you are considered to be accomplished the course of Zuan Zhuang. Sorry, but this is NOT good advice. Knees should not pass the toes at all. This goes totally against everything I've been taught. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Li Jiong Posted November 25, 2012 As a master with more than 20 years experiences in standing maditation, I recommend Wuji Standing for you, you can download the free ebook at http://pan.baidu.com/share/link?shareid=145164&uk=3372875513/, hope it helps. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adept Posted November 25, 2012 As a master with more than 20 years experiences in standing maditation, I recommend Wuji Standing for you, you can download the free ebook at http://pan.baidu.com...&uk=3372875513/, hope it helps. Here we go again ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bubbles Posted November 25, 2012 Just wanted to ask if this is a normal phenomenon. I just started practicing standing pole and literally in the first few minutes i get this uncontrollable shaking from my legs. Its like both my right and left leg are alternating in the shaking like i am almost running in place but not really. lol. I do not know if that makes sense? Is my stance off? Is this a good or bad thing? Thank You for your time, any info would be much appreciated. Hi, If you don't have a teacher to learn from ,the best thing to do is to buy (for as little as 5 bucks) the Way of energy by Lam Kam Chuen (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671736450/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d2_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0QE7EB0AFDNH8ZCS923Z&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1389517282&pf_rd_i=507846 This book, if carefully read, will guide you to proper practice. Stay away from any other unreliable source. About the knees passing the toes, Lam Kam Chuen says they SHOULDN'T (page 85 of the book). Knees are for weight transference not weight bearing, otherwise you will damage them in the long (or not so long) run. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gemstone Posted November 25, 2012 The shaking of the legs are a sign of development and are normal in this type of practice. It can range from a slight tremble up to strong bouncing of the legs. It is often accompanied with perspiration. Although distracting, it should not be the focus of practice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
i am Posted November 25, 2012 Depending on my state, it'll happen to me, but usually not until about 10 minutes or so in. It usually doesn't happen, but every now and then it will...Obviously since nobody here can see how you're actually doing it, it'll be hard for them to give advice...if you're doing things right, then yeah, some amount of shaking seems normal to me, especially when you're not used to standing. Totally different kind of "workout" than any moving exercises. I stood with a guy whose first time standing ever was for about 40 minutes, and his entire body was shaking just a couple minutes in. By the time we were done, his shirt and pants were soaked through with sweat. The teacher said "your body is empty; no chi". But he respected that the guy kept standing and didn't give up, and said that standing like that every day would build chi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted November 25, 2012 chenpalyer.... It is completely normal in the beginning because your leg muscles had never taken this kind of punishment before. In your case, your legs muscles are lack of exercise. It would be difficult to take that much stress all the sudden. Therefore, you have to go slow in bending the angle between the upper and lower legs at the knee cap. If you practice the stance everyday, then increase the bending angle progressively in weeks or months. Until you can bend your legs to 45 degrees with the knees passed the toes and able to stand for a long time without having the legs shaken and no pain, then you are considered to be accomplished the course of Zuan Zhuang. ChiDragon - where did you learn this? Do you really have enough experience and confidence in the method you describe above to teach it as Zhan Zhuang? Are you describing your own standing practice? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 25, 2012 Until you can bend your legs to 45 degrees and EVEN with the knees passed the toes and able to stand for a long time without having the legs shaken and no pain. Then you are considered to be accomplished the course of Zuan Zhuang. When you were told not to have the knees pass the toes, that is only at the beginning of the practice. However, It may not be able to not to pass the knees beyond the toes during a combat situation. Use your common sense. The reason for the practice was to allow the knees to be able to pass the toes without pain. So, the legs are more flexible to handle any adverse situation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted November 25, 2012 You haven't answered any of my three questions: 1. Where did you learn this method? 2. Are you confident and experienced enough in this method to teach it in a public forum as Zhan Zhuang? 3. Is this your personal practice you are describing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 25, 2012 (edited) ChiDragon - where did you learn this? Do you really have enough experience and confidence in the method you describe above to teach it as Zhan Zhuang? Are you describing your own standing practice? Steve, let's not personalize the subject. Yes, I do have enough experience and compete confidence believe what I am saying about Zhan Zhuang. It is really common sense. That is something I know for sure. Anybody hasn't done any exercise at all; their muscles will be very weak and has no muscle tone. You can talk to anyone who practice Zhan Zhang or Tai Ji Chuan at the beginning of the practice; and ask them to see if they have any soreness or pains on the leg muscles in the first two three months. Edited November 25, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted November 25, 2012 Since you choose not to, I'll answer the questions for you, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - 1. You made it up to fit your image of what you think Zhan Zhuang is without the benefit of instruction to show you otherwise 2. You believe your story and share it with others and don't consider that you may be misleading other people 3. You practice a little but not enough to realize the limitation of what you're recommending I have a name for this sort of thing, it's called "making shit up." It's irresponsible when you offer it to others with the intent that they accept you as an authority. Hopefully you won't cause too many people to injure their knees with your foolishness. What you are describing is not Zhan Zhuang. At best it's an isometric exercise for the quadriceps. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 25, 2012 (edited) Steve... I did my best.... PS..... You can talk to anyone who practice Zhan Zhang or Tai Ji Chuan at the beginning of the practice; and ask them to see if they have any soreness or pains on the leg muscles in the first two three months How about your feedback on this....??? PPS....... Steve: "What you are describing is not Zhan Zhuang. At best it's an isometric exercise for the quadriceps." Is there any more different....??? Do you think Kung Fu is not an isometric exercise to get the body in shape....??? Edited November 25, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 25, 2012 Just wanted to ask if this is a normal phenomenon. I just started practicing standing pole and literally in the first few minutes i get this uncontrollable shaking from my legs. Its like both my right and left leg are alternating in the shaking like i am almost running in place but not really. lol. I do not know if that makes sense? Is my stance off? Is this a good or bad thing? Thank You for your time, any info would be much appreciated. Steve.... May I hear your point of view of what is going on with Chenpalyer based on your knowledge, how would you help him to correct his problem...??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted November 25, 2012 For ChiDragon - Just wanted to ask if this is a normal phenomenon. I just started practicing standing pole and literally in the first few minutes i get this uncontrollable shaking from my legs. Its like both my right and left leg are alternating in the shaking like i am almost running in place but not really. lol. I do not know if that makes sense? Is my stance off? Is this a good or bad thing? Thank You for your time, any info would be much appreciated. What you are describing makes sense, no need to judge it as good or bad, and it happens to everyone. Many other experiences of movement, internal and external, are likely to occur in your standing practice if you continue. Just like the thoughts in your head, allow the movement to come and go as it will, without aversion or attachment. I can't say whether or not your stance is off without seeing you in person but if you are new to standing I'm quite sure you will gradually refine and perfect your posture over time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 25, 2012 Steve.... What do you mean by "your stance is off"....??? What is your definition of "off"...??? What is the correct starting procedure to do Zhan Zhuang for a beginner...??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adept Posted November 25, 2012 Steve.... What do you mean by "your stance is off"....??? What is your definition of "off"...??? What is the correct starting procedure to do Zhan Zhuang for a beginner...??? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted November 25, 2012 (edited) ChiDragon - I was simply referring to this: Is my stance off? I'm not going to present an instructional guide for basic posture here or try to analyze chenapalyer's stance based on what little information has been provided. Chenapalyer has adopted a method, hopefully from direct instruction. As posted by adept above, there are good resources online (and in books) but they are no substitute for personal instruction. @adept - PS - I really like that short video clip. The tree references are very helpful. I struggled for about a year to understand basic baguazhang standing posture. I finally understood it one day with the help of this tree Edited November 25, 2012 by steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 25, 2012 (edited) chenpalyer.... It is completely normal in the beginning because your leg muscles had never taken this kind of punishment before. In your case, your legs muscles are lack of exercise. It would be difficult to take that much stress all the sudden. Therefore, you have to go slow in bending the angle between the upper and lower legs at the knee cap. If you practice the stance everyday, then increase decrease the bending angle from 180 degrees progressively in weeks or months. Until you can bend your legs to 45 degrees even with the knees passed the toes and able to stand for a long time without having the legs shaken and no pain, then you are considered to be accomplished the course of Zuan Zhuang. Edited to changes as indicated in BOLD. Edited November 25, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted November 25, 2012 ChiDragon - you are still practicing the technique, "making shit up" 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 25, 2012 Thanks adept. For simplicity, let's just concentrate on the legs only. The video has shown the Zhan Zhuang day 1 at the first positon, the practitioner is almost standing up straight but with the legs bent slightly not having the knees pass beyond the toes. Actually, he is doing the health chi kung. For martial artists, they would like to practice ZZ until they can stand with the bending angle of 90 degree as the shaolin monks. However, a beginner cannot bend the knees to 90 degrees at the beginning as a novice. The angle must be decreased progressively week by week or even month by month. In order to understand what was taken place in the muscles, one has to know something about the physiological effect of the body while the muscles were understand contraction. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 25, 2012 (edited) ChiDragon - you are still practicing the technique, "making shit up" Thank you for not given a direct answer. We cannot go too far with this kind of response, can we....??? Edited November 25, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted November 25, 2012 chenpalyer.... Until you can bend your legs to 45 degrees even with the knees passed the toes and able to stand for a long time without having the legs shaken and no pain, then you are considered to be accomplished the course of Zuan Zhuang. Edited to changes as indicated in BOLD. You will ruin your knees if you stand with knees beyond the toes. You are giving out harmful dangerous information. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) Please read MY WORDS very carefully. The emphasis is on the words "until you can". You see you people already make up your mind about something without paying much ATTENTION to minor details. READ MY WORDS.... AT THE BEGINNING, ONE DO NOT PASS THE KNEES BEYOND THE TOES. HOWEVER, AFTER YOU HAVE PRACTICED LONG ENOUGH AND HAVE YOUR MUSCLES WORKED UP AND THE PAIN OR SORENESS IN THE MUSCLES OR THE KNEES IS NO LONGER AN ISSUE. DO YOU READ AND UNDERSTAND...??? THE PURPOSE FOR ZHAN ZHUANG IS TO GET RID OF THE SORENESS IN THE MUSCLES. SO EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE THE KNEES PASS THE TOES, THEY WILL NOT HURT. Edited November 26, 2012 by ChiDragon 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Celestial Posted November 26, 2012 Please read MY WORDS very carefully. The emphasis is on the words "until you can". You see you people already make up your mind about something without paying much ATTENTION to minor details. READ MY WORDS.... AT THE BEGINNING, ONE DO NOT PASS THE KNEES BEYOND THE TOES. HOWEVER, AFTER YOU HAVE PRACTICED LONG ENOUGH AND HAVE YOUR MUSCLES WORKED UP AND THE PAIN OR SORENESS IN THE MUSCLES OR THE KNEES IS NO LONGER AN ISSUE. DO YOU READ AND UNDERSTAND...??? THE PURPOSE FOR ZHAN ZHUANG IS TO GET RID OF THE SORENESS IN THE MUSCLES. SO EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE THE KNEES PASS THE TOES, THEY WILL NOT HURT. At this point though, I would rather move onto a different style that widens the stance. Zhan Zhuang is great for working your lats, but a wider horse stance will work your gluts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted November 26, 2012 (edited) Please read MY WORDS very carefully. The emphasis is on the words "until you can". You see you people already make up your mind about something without paying much ATTENTION to minor details. READ MY WORDS.... AT THE BEGINNING, ONE DO NOT PASS THE KNEES BEYOND THE TOES. HOWEVER, AFTER YOU HAVE PRACTICED LONG ENOUGH AND HAVE YOUR MUSCLES WORKED UP AND THE PAIN OR SORENESS IN THE MUSCLES OR THE KNEES IS NO LONGER AN ISSUE. DO YOU READ AND UNDERSTAND...??? THE PURPOSE FOR ZHAN ZHUANG IS TO GET RID OF THE SORENESS IN THE MUSCLES. SO EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE THE KNEES PASS THE TOES, THEY WILL NOT HURT. Even if you can DON"T Do you speak from experience.Do YOU stand with your knees beyond your toes? or are you theorizing again. Many taiji players have bad knees for this very reason. Edited November 26, 2012 by mYTHmAKER 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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