Which Buddhist schools did Shankara disagree with in the Brahma Sutras & why?

[stefos]

Hi everyone,

 

The title says it all.

 

It seems that Dzogchen, which I was initiated into, seems to collaborate with the Self of Advaita Vedanta.

 

In Tibet, the "new" schools of Gelug, Sakya, and Kagyu all disagree that Dzogchen is an authentic Buddhist lineage although the "Rime" movement tried to reconcile some things.

 

Anyway, I was interested in the 4 particular schools that Shankara disagreed with and seems to have refuted in his commentary of the Brahma Sutras (Prasthanathraya).

 

Which ones were they and why did he disagree with them?

 

Does it make sense to anyone? I think I get the reasoning behind it but.....trying to get the fullest picture possible.

 

Also, Does anyone know if Shankara disagreed with Dzogchen?

 

Any insight would be appreciated!

Thank you & God bless you!

Stefos

Edited November 14, 2012 by stefos

[stefos]

Can anyone here assist me?

 

I know the Brahma Sutra Bhashya mentions 4 schools but what's the story behind it?

 

Thanks

Stefos

[gatito]

I wish you'd asked this question in the Buddhist Forum.

 

I fear that WW3 is about to start here.

[dwai]

Dzogchen didnt exist during shankara's time. He debated the sarvastivadins and the vijanavadins.

[forestofclarity]

This may get you started:

 

http://www.kamakotimandali.com/blog/index.php?p=540&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

[Creation]

This may get you started:

 

http://www.kamakotim...1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

Another from the same blog (which is awesome by the way):

http://www.kamakotim...1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

 

For the Dzogchen side of things, here is an interesting collection of quotes:

http://awakeningtore...s-dzogchen.html

Edited November 15, 2012 by Creation

[gatito]

OMG

 

Peace has broken out.

[stefos]

Hi everyone,

 

Thank you for sharing this wonderful stuff!

 

I'm a Christian actually and I wanted to understand the mind better. I also want to get my masters in Cognitive or Clinical psychology to be a counselor. I'm a Theist in other words.

 

I do not want nor am I requesting fighting/arguing over things. Please discuss, ESPECIALLY if you desire enlightenment right?

 

I've been initiated into Dzogchen by Guru Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and in Dzogchen the primordial nature IS and IS perfect with no need to "change" or "visualize" anything.

 

Watching without clinging is the path. Enlightenment is the fruit. In Dzogchen attainment of the rainbow body (one manifestation of enlightenment) happens after the "practices" of trekcho & togel. In Dzogchen, everything revolves around the base which is the primordial nature. Trekcho & Togel therefore are not Tantric (i.e. visualization of deity) nor are they Mahayanistic, per se, (i.e. exchanging self for other) nor are they Theravada (i.e. build up the antidotes to the 5 poisons).

 

Naked awareness is the state to be in as thoughts arise or not...just watching without clinging or repulsion.

It is this awareness of things as they are that reality is from moment to moment.

 

Please continue!

Thank you,

stefos

[gatito]

You do know that this is the Vedanta Forum?

[Jeff]

 

In Dzogchen, everything revolves around the base which is the primordial nature. Trekcho & Togel therefore are not Tantric (i.e. visualization of deity) nor are they Mahayanistic, per se, (i.e. exchanging self for other) nor are they Theravada (i.e. build up the antidotes to the 5 poisons).

 

 

How would you consider Togel as "not Tantric"? Also, do you practice Togel?

 

[stefos]

You do know that this is the Vedanta Forum?

 

Yes, I do. In the bible, Jesus said "The Father and I are one."

 

Further in the New Testament, Paul says "God's spirit becomes one with your spirit."

 

Sounds a LOT like Advaita Vedanta right? Of course it does. Just saying!

[stefos]

How would you consider Togel as "not Tantric"? Also, do you practice Togel?

 

 

Hi,

 

Trekcho & Togel are part of Dzogchen and not Tantra. In Tantra, energy movement is dealt with, In Dzogchen, awareness is dealt with.....Leaving the awareness "naked" as it were...Allowing the thoughts to self liberate or conversely being aware of the state of no thought.

 

The rainbow body is achieved after the "practices" of both trekcho & togel.

 

I do not practice trekcho nor togel but would love to!

I'm not aware when Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has given teachings about trekcho & togel.

I'll look into this eventually.

 

A book called "Heartdrops of the Dharmakaya" mentions both in detail....Nice.

 

stefos

Edited November 21, 2012 by stefos

[gatito]

Yes, I do. In the bible, Jesus said "The Father and I are one."

 

Further in the New Testament, Paul says "God's spirit becomes one with your spirit."

 

Sounds a LOT like Advaita Vedanta right? Of course it does. Just saying!

 

So you've come the Vedanta forum to discuss Christanity and Buddhism? LOL!

[Jeff]

 

Hi,

 

Trekcho & Togel are part of Dzogchen and not Tantra. In Tantra, energy movement is dealt with, In Dzogchen, awareness is dealt with.....Leaving the awareness "naked" as it were...Allowing the thoughts to self liberate or conversely being aware of the state of no thought.

 

The rainbow body is achieved after the "practices" of both trekcho & togel.

 

I do not practice trekcho nor togel but would love to!

I'm not aware when Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has given teachings about trekcho & togel.

I'll look into this eventually.

 

A book called "Heartdrops of the Dharmakaya" mentions both in detail....Nice.

 

stefos

 

Hi Stefos,

 

"Heartdrops of the Dharmakaya" is a good book and your choice of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu (CNN) is a gifted teacher. I would recommend that you read his "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State". It is an excellent overview of Dzogchen.

 

Specifically regarding tantra (or energy practices), CNN says...

 

"In Dzogchen, too, various methods of energy are practiced, but these are not based on the activity of the mind."

 

CNN often uses the term “voice” in describing energy and energy practices. Also, "transmissions" are advanced energy practices.

 

Best wishes on your path.

 

[stefos]

Dzogchen didnt exist during shankara's time. He debated the sarvastivadins and the vijanavadins.

 

Hello dwai,

 

I don't know if you are a Buddhist or not.

 

O.K.....I believe the Buddha was a Theist or believed in Brahman.

 

The Buddha mentioned the "unborn, undying, not-becoming, etc." Surely he didn't mean HIS mind.

 

Can you please comment on this? Do you believe the Buddha was an Atheist?

 

Thank you,

stefos

[dwai]

Hello dwai,

 

I don't know if you are a Buddhist or not.

 

O.K.....I believe the Buddha was a Theist or believed in Brahman.

 

The Buddha mentioned the "unborn, undying, not-becoming, etc." Surely he didn't mean HIS mind.

 

Can you please comment on this? Do you believe the Buddha was an Atheist?

 

Thank you,

stefos

 

I think Buddha was silent on the topic of "God". And I'm not a Buddhist and that's okay, because the Buddha himself was not a "Buddhist".

 

What get's lost in the claptrap of Buddhist teachings is that The Buddha's focus on anatta (or non-self) was to show what is not the Self. Not to prove that there is no self at all. But this has been beaten ad infinitum on TTB (and elsewhere) so let's not get into that.

 

What I can say is this -- at the end of the day, whatever resonates with you is what you should practice and follow. Also, never give up your independence (ie the need for or ability to assess something and decide whether it makes sense or not). Advaita and Buddhism have a lot in common. I chose to not get trapped in dogma. And in my humble opinion, that is a great way to be and approach this subject.

[stefos]

I think Buddha was silent on the topic of "God". And I'm not a Buddhist and that's okay, because the Buddha himself was not a "Buddhist".

 

What get's lost in the claptrap of Buddhist teachings is that The Buddha's focus on anatta (or non-self) was to show what is not the Self. Not to prove that there is no self at all. But this has been beaten ad infinitum on TTB (and elsewhere) so let's not get into that.

 

What I can say is this -- at the end of the day, whatever resonates with you is what you should practice and follow. Also, never give up your independence (ie the need for or ability to assess something and decide whether it makes sense or not). Advaita and Buddhism have a lot in common. I chose to not get trapped in dogma. And in my humble opinion, that is a great way to be and approach this subject.

 

Yes to what you've stated.

 

The salient issue is that what DID the Buddha first i.e. "originally" teach?

 

I also have seen AN-atta being pushed as "not self" and conversely "no-self." The point is, is that everything created is subject to decay and ultimately is not eternal, not truly satisfying. Most modern Buddhist "schools" say that "There is no self at all on any level" not truly realizing what other religions qualify this self as! Hmmm...

The Pali texts don't represent the original teachings of the Buddha in total. They do contain parts of his teachings I would say.

It seems that "Buddhist" groups/sanghas in the west deny anything metaphysical in Buddhism...very secular thinking indeed.

 

Nevertheless, I'm not an Atheist and I've seen too much and as a personal side note know 2 people who have seen full bodied apparitions of an elderly nurse at the local VA that I work at! Interesting isn't it? I think so. I also have seen a being which was translucent and looked unlike what I've seen before in my life about 10 yrs. ago.

 

Nevertheless. Buddhism posited existence of metaphysical realities before the creation of this universe. This also is something that western "Buddhist" circles seem to neglect or minimize.

 

I "feel" like I'm a hostage here in the U.S. with these Buddhist spiritual traditions dwai. I've distanced myself from "Buddhist" groups because of how they teach what they think the Buddha first actually taught. I don't believe we'll ever know what he taught as we don't have anything more ancient than the Pali texts which came after the so-called "24 schools" period.

 

So it is,

God bless you

stefos