World Medicine of Tao

[Celestial]

And good point about diet and exercise. This is an important aspect of Naturopathic Medicine, which I have not as yet mentioned. A true story of one of the first famous naturopaths (from England). He was called to the bedside of a dying child who had been treated by "modern medicine" but was still dying. He walked into the closed off room of the child, took one look around, picked up a chair, and threw it through the window. Then told the parents the child would be alright and he would be by to collect his bill the next week. The child lived.

 

Naturopathy - Fresh air, fresh water, diet (including supplements), and exercise.

 

Haha that's a great story. Yeah, all I drink is water and tea. A lot of supplements are scams or filled with a bunch of crap, never buy supplements from a drug store. I take a multi, iodine, and fish oil. All natural, no fillers. I might be switching from fish oil to krill oil though. I'm hearing great things about it.

[GrandmasterP]

No issue with that at all YM.

We say that 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating' and if someone is good they hardly need to advertise as word of mouth brings people flocking for treatment.

It was the unregulated sometimes self-deluded shysters to whom I was referring.

Once one trusting patient is injured, then the damage has been done.

Our centre offers spiritual healing which is unregulated by statute but the centre has been in its present building fifty years this year

and prior to that was the old building for over a century, folk keep coming even though we have free at the point of demand state allopathic health care in the UK.

What we do have in the UK is compulsory professional indemnity insurance for healers and in these litigious times the insurance companies will not cover anyone as a practitioner unless that person has bona fides from a list of approved therapies, all of which must meet certain standards of training, safeguarding praxes and of course a track record of not being sued.

[Ya Mu]

They're out there:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....med?term=qigong

Thanks for posting the link. And I have listed many times the studies (abstracts) on qigong and medical qigong as compiled by Dr Ken Sancier. www.qigonginstitute.org

[Ya Mu]

No issue with that at all YM.

We say that 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating' and if someone is good they hardly need to advertise as word of mouth brings people flocking for treatment.

It was the unregulated sometimes self-deluded shysters to whom I was referring.

Once one trusting patient is injured, then the damage has been done.

Our centre offers spiritual healing which is unregulated by statute but the centre has been in its present building fifty years this year

and prior to that was the old building for over a century, folk keep coming even though we have free at the point of demand state allopathic health care in the UK.

What we do have in the UK is compulsory professional indemnity insurance for healers and in these litigious times the insurance companies will not cover anyone as a practitioner unless that person has bona fides from a list of approved therapies, all of which must meet certain standards of training, safeguarding praxes and of course a track record of not being sued.

Yes I just recently learned that Chinese patent medicines cannot be purchased in UK. And here I was going on and on in a conversation with someone in England about medical qigong in combination with Chinese Herbal medicines. Yikes!

 

edit: accidently hit button before I finished.

Quick story related to your reply:

Many years ago (around 17) I had a massage therapy graduate that graduated from my medical qigong training. She asked me, "Michael, how will I get people to come to me for this therapy? Noone is going to want to come for a therapy they never heard of." I told her, "I predict you will be calling me asking me how to deal with SO MANY people." Sure enough, I got the phone call. When something works, really well, word of mouth spreads fast.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Ya Mu

[GrandmasterP]

Thank goodness we can still buy Tiger Balm.

Wouldn't be without a pot of that wonderful stuff in the house.

[Aetherous]

edit: forgot to answer rest of question as I was busy typing another reply.

My work as of 2002, is published in my book, A Light Warrior's Guide to High Level Energy Healing

Several medical qigong treatment methods are listed. This book has shipped literally all over the world and has sold out of print edition but is available on kindle. My written work from 2002-today is in the form of another book. I already have a publisher.

 

Not what I meant by "published". I already purchased your book. I meant in a peer reviewed journal...so the scientific community could be exposed to a therapy that might have close to a 100% success rate.

 

Don't know why what I'm saying hasn't been clear to you in here...but whatever.

[Ya Mu]

Not what I meant by "published". I already purchased your book. I meant in a peer reviewed journal...so the scientific community could be exposed to a therapy that might have close to a 100% success rate.

 

Don't know why what I'm saying hasn't been clear to you in here...but whatever.

Very clear, thank you. You mean YOUR standard of double blind study. Not my standard, which I gave IMO to be the more accurate standard, of history of use. Not really interested in publishing such myself. I have, however, REPEATEDLY offered to anyone, including you, that wished to pay for such a study, my services for no fee. And, so far, after over 25 years of offering, no one has been interested. Let me know by PM if you are! Probably cost you less than 5 million, but can't guarantee that.

[Aetherous]

It's not MY standard...it's modern medicine's standard for evidence based practice.

 

If I had the ability and know how, I'd take you up on that offer. Studies don't cost that much, by the way.

 

Done here. Thanks.

 

edit: By the way, Ya Mu...today you have formed another enemy, with your attitude. Good job!

Edited November 18, 2012 by turtle shell

[Ya Mu]

It's not MY standard...it's modern medicine's standard for evidence based practice.

 

If I had the ability and know how, I'd take you up on that offer. Studies don't cost that much, by the way.

 

Done here. Thanks.

 

edit: By the way, Ya Mu...today you have formed another enemy, with your attitude. Good job!

Sorry you feel you are my enemy. If you had of stuck with your argument, which I said was a good one, instead of attempting to turn it into a personal thread, you most probably would not feel that way. But you were obstinate and rude once I pointed out what were IMO fallacies in your argument - there was no need because your argument had enough basis to stand on its own.

And, I DID look into such a study, many years ago - it was FAR form my personal finances. I was not being fecitious. I had actually hoped you were a millionaire and would take me up on it.

[Aetherous]

Lets not make it a personal thread...lets just discuss how medical qigong should be considered world medicine, when I do medical qigong with a 100% success rate....

 

Yeah fucking right dude.

[Aetherous]

Oh, and all discussion about how real medicine sucks is welcomed! But of course, I'm complementary medicine.

[Ya Mu]

Lets not make it a personal thread...lets just discuss how medical qigong should be considered world medicine, when I do medical qigong with a 100% success rate....

 

Yeah fucking right dude.

No need for this whatsoever, Scott. You had already made up your mind and came into the thread with an obstinate attitude (I am pro western medicine and this DUDE doesn't have a clue about western medicine). We could keep this thread informative and friendly - and still can. I am certainly willing and inviting you to make your arguments. I just asked that we keep it non-personal. Is that so much to ask?

 

l"ets just discuss how medical qigong should be considered world medicine," Did you look at the links posted on the studies? We are discussing the whole - not just medical qigong. One thing you don't appear to understand is that I AM pro-western medicine.

 

Costs of study info:

When I looked into doing a particular medical qigong study I called around the countyr to rent an hr of time in an acoustics chamber. This was in the 90's. Cost quoted? 100,000 per hour. Set up time would be charged. I think you just don't understand what these things cost.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Aetherous]

Apparently it was too much to ask, when you take any argument that differs from yours as a personal attack. What's the point of a discussion then? This thread is fucking ONE SIDED. And you're right, there was no need for this whatsoever. You could have acted reasonably from the start, instead of going "arggh" and taking everything personally...

 

When really, if you actually listened, you could be on your way to revolutionizing world medicine. But nah...you don't want to do any work. You want someone to knock on your door and offer...rather than you knocking on their doors. Excuses abound as to why you haven't done this.

 

Anyway...yeah. No point in continuing with you.

 

 

 

l"ets just discuss how medical qigong should be considered world medicine," Did you look at the links posted on the studies? We are discussing the whole - not just medical qigong. One thing you don't appear to understand is that I AM pro-western medicine.

 

Reading this now is like bashing my perfectly formed head against a brick wall. wtf is with you today?

Edited November 18, 2012 by turtle shell

[GrandmasterP]

Free QiGong resources at....

http://jsqg.sport.org.cn/en/index.html

 

[Ya Mu]

Apparently it was too much to ask, when you take any argument that differs from yours as a personal attack. What's the point of a discussion then? This thread is fucking ONE SIDED. And you're right, there was no need for this whatsoever. You could have acted reasonably from the start, instead of going "arggh" and taking everything personally...

 

When really, if you actually listened, you could be on your way to revolutionizing world medicine. But nah...you don't want to do any work. You want someone to knock on your door and offer...rather than you knocking on their doors. Excuses abound as to why you haven't done this.

 

Anyway...yeah. No point in continuing with you.

Not at all what I said. Perhaps re-read. I have listened and invited you to continue an your on-topic arguments. And do so again. However, " if you actually listened, you could be on your way to revolutionizing world medicine. But nah...you don't want to do any work. You want someone to knock on your door and offer...rather than you knocking on their doors. Excuses abound as to why you haven't done this." is simply more attempts to turn the thread personal. And by the way, do you REALLY believe that? I have worked for a very long time at this and these therapies are now being practiced in most countries of the world due to my efforts. What do you not understand about that? But perhaps you think I have the kind of money to do those type of studies that YOU think are the only validity. If that is what you think, I wish you were correct. You try finding the money - I already have and it didn't work. Maybe you will have more success.

 

 

...

Reading this now is like bashing my perfectly formed head against a brick wall. wtf is with you today?

Don't know. Beer deficiency, maybe.

 

Can we get back on topic - we need more pro-western viewpoint. Come on, Scott, help me out here. You have training that could be a valuable contribution here.

 

Oh, and how is it one-sided when I have invited you 4 times to resume your arguments about the topic?

Edited November 18, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Ya Mu]

Free QiGong resources at....

http://jsqg.sport.org.cn/en/index.html

Thanks for the link.

[Aetherous]

The money excuse doesn't cut it. I know a couple of people who have done studies through universities...cost them nothing. I don't think it cost the university anything, either. All volunteer, all simple stuff. For instance, you don't need an acoustic chamber that costs 10,000 an hour to show how your treatments are effective. I think it would be a piece of cake to find someone that is willing to publish a therapy that has close to 100% success rate. "Big pharma" and scared scientists are weak excuses. I know, because I've actually been exposed to the process, and have seen tons of studies that weren't funded by big pharma or whatever other conspiracy theory people are putting out there.

 

Anyway, with you posting a topic on this subject, how could it not be taken to a personal level? Lets get real here. This is what you do, that's why you're posting about it...and you want to discuss it, but with no discussion of what you do? I'm completely not comprehending.

 

Anyway...I really do need to take a break. I don't like to get so worked up over what is essentially nothing. The enemy comment...while I think your behavior has been ridiculous...is not in my nature to uphold. I just can't fathom what caused you to react the way you did to my posts, when I was trying to let you know that I wasn't trying to badmouth you or anything, but actually help your cause.

[Ya Mu]

The money excuse doesn't cut it. I know a couple of people who have done studies through universities...cost them nothing. I don't think it cost the university anything, either. All volunteer, all simple stuff. For instance, you don't need an acoustic chamber that costs 10,000 an hour to show how your treatments are effective. I think it would be a piece of cake to find someone that is willing to publish a therapy that has close to 100% success rate. "Big pharma" and scared scientists are weak excuses. I know, because I've actually been exposed to the process, and have seen tons of studies that weren't funded by big pharma or whatever other conspiracy theory people are putting out there.

 

Anyway, with you posting a topic on this subject, how could it not be taken to a personal level? Lets get real here. This is what you do, that's why you're posting about it...and you want to discuss it, but with no discussion of what you do? I'm completely not comprehending.

 

Anyway...I really do need to take a break. I don't like to get so worked up over what is essentially nothing. The enemy comment...while I think your behavior has been ridiculous...is not in my nature to uphold. I just can't fathom what caused you to react the way you did to my posts, when I was trying to let you know that I wasn't trying to badmouth you or anything, but actually help your cause.

The university people I talked to, about 20 of them, have all declined. These studies do have to have a physician involved. They have all declined (unless they were paid). But connections are a key and you perhaps have more than I. The acoustics lab was for a specific thing that would be great - still way too expensive.

 

I don't understand where I have had any type of "behavior" other than my usual joking around. You should understand, after me putting up with uncalled for personal attacks on this board over the last two days, one reason I would prefer to keep this thread non-personal. Also, I was trying to avoid the very thing you accused me of - making this thread about me or medical qigong. Medical qigong is included because it IS a system of medicine. I was hoping for a broader discussion.

I still invite your contribution.

[de_paradise]

Ya Mu, the model that you are talking about exists presently here in Taiwan. There is medical qigong office inside the public "Western Medicine" hospital, and the TCM guys tend to have private practises around, but not in the hospital, but also covered as part of the country health insurance. People choose, it seems based on their experience and value systems. People who are desperate tend to be more motivated to look at all the options in a less biased way. TCM doesn't always work though, and herbal formals often don't "wow' their patients like a strong pharmaceutical can do, or lasik eye surgery, or high level surgery. I think "wow" factor (results) is important, because it creates the trust, that if they can do x, then they can do y and z. People use western medicine with their common cold, because of that trust, even though the treatment is often abysmally wrong headed (removing the symptoms of natural healing process) One would think that if the treatment results of medical qigong were very high, then it would become more popular due to word of mouth. If thats not happening, then you may be able to fill in the blanks why not, since this is your field.

[Ya Mu]

Ya Mu, the model that you are talking about exists presently here in Taiwan. There is medical qigong office inside the public "Western Medicine" hospital, and the TCM guys tend to have private practises around, but not in the hospital, but also covered as part of the country health insurance. People choose, it seems based on their experience and value systems. People who are desperate tend to be more motivated to look at all the options in a less biased way. TCM doesn't always work though, and herbal formals often don't "wow' their patients like a strong pharmaceutical can do, or lasik eye surgery, or high level surgery. I think "wow" factor (results) is important, because it creates the trust, that if they can do x, then they can do y and z. People use western medicine with their common cold, because of that trust, even though the treatment is often abysmally wrong headed (removing the symptoms of natural healing process) One would think that if the treatment results of medical qigong were very high, then it would become more popular due to word of mouth. If thats not happening, then you may be able to fill in the blanks why not, since this is your field.

I don't know much about the Taiwan situation. I would think it would be similar to what it was in mainland China 15 years ago. One problem I saw was in the younger people. They all wanted to thing that all things western was modern and upbeat and better while all things of their parents and grandparents was old-fashioned and not as good. I do remember when I was teaching a medical qigong survey course at the University School of Medicine in Ms to the 4th year medical students I was giving a lecture and one young Chinese guy got up and loudly protested when I said how the hospitals were laid out, saying China is modern and doesn't prescribe to superstition. Hey, the same all over the world, eh? The younger generation mostly unwilling to look at older wisdom.

However, in terms of efficacy, it wasn't how you described. There were far more patients than could be taken care of due to the lack of doctors. The same for my clinics and most of my students. Once word of mouth got out we worked hard to keep up with demand. People don't question when something works, they want more of it. Bear in mind that all medical qigong, just like any particular technique of any medicine system, is not created equal. Some has better efficacy.

[宁]

I dunno.

I mean I like Tao Medicine as a lifestyle, however Western Medicine saved my ass countless. My loved ones included, which is NOT something that I can tell about Tao Medicine.

 

SM seems to be a working healing system, at least based on the testimonials that we get here, but most of the Qigong out there does alot better as 'just' a healthier alternative lifestyle period.

 

Also Western Medicine is not belief dependant, so you can believe in Buddha or Allah or be a Christian fundie and still feel confortable about receiving it, I don't know about Tao Medicine.

 

Even by my being involved for so many years in cultivation, when health issues come up I'd go for Western Medicine without hesitation. I avoided proper treatment in the past because of bias against Western Medicine, but life and experience taught me better than that.

 

I think Qigong does alot of good in improving chronic problems though, which should Not be adressed via medication alone.

Edited November 18, 2012 by 宁

[Brian]

Having spent more than a dozen years in a pharmaceutical research organization, offering "soup-to-nuts" services, including multinational clinical trials management, to most of "big pharma" (as well as many small. "virtual," and non-pharma companies), I'll say that many brilliant people do amazing work inside a framework of massive international fraud, abuse & corruption. Most governmental oversight consists of auditing to ensure that documentation is consistent w/ regulations & w/ internal SOPs and the primary penalty for problems is coughing up money that goes into the government's pocket (including extortion to stay silent).

[Brian]

It's not MY standard...it's modern medicine's standard for evidence based practice.

 

If I had the ability and know how, I'd take you up on that offer. Studies don't cost that much, by the way.

 

Done here. Thanks.

 

edit: By the way, Ya Mu...today you have formed another enemy, with your attitude. Good job!

 

In fact, clinical trials are outrageously expensive! (Ask me how I know?)

[Ya Mu]

I dunno.

I mean I like Tao Medicine as a lifestyle, however Western Medicine saved my ass countless. My loved ones included, which is NOT something that I can tell about Tao Medicine.

 

SM seems to be a working healing system, at least based on the testimonials that we get here, but most of the Qigong out there does alot better as 'just' a healthier alternative lifestyle period.

 

Also Western Medicine is not belief dependant, so you can believe in Buddha or Allah or be a Christian fundie and still feel confortable about receiving it, I don't know about Tao Medicine.

 

Even by my being involved for so many years in cultivation, when health issues come up I'd go for Western Medicine without hesitation. I avoided proper treatment in the past because of bias against Western Medicine, but life and experience taught me better than that.

 

I think Qigong does alot of good in improving chronic problems though, which should Not be adressed via medication alone.

This is exactly what I am advocating, choose what works best for any particular problem utilizing INFORMED decisions.

For instance, say someone falls and hurts themselves to the point of breaking of bones. What is the common sense and informed thing to do? Of course western medicine, if available. IMO it would be stupid to do anything else. Lets take this further. After the initial visit to the physician there is going to be pain. What to do? IMO the western drugs excel at initial trauma and for short-term pain. But say that the pain continues beyond a few days. What to do? THIS is where the complementary therapies excel. To stay in a drugged out state leaves a person non-production. Also, pain drugs tend to not be as effective when taken long-term and a person has to take more and more of them many times to the point of addiction. To enhance the bodies natural healing process is an amazing thing. THIS is where complementary therapies excel. In clinic, I have seen many cases of broken bones with people who medical qigong was performed. Some were able to get by with no pain medication and others needed a minimum. In most cases that were followed up with their physician, the physician always commented on how fast the healing occurred and how soon the cast could be removed. But medical qigong is not the only thing that could help here, that is only what I am most familiar with. I do know many of the Chinese Herbal formulas for trauma are very helpful as well. It would take a visit to a TCM doctor to get the correct formula. I always discourage anyone from playing around with these formulas. With over 5,000 ingredients in the pharmacopeia it does take experience to arrive at the correct formula. Due to the fact that many of these herbs are powerful it would create imbalance if we take the wrong ones. There are also many other complementary therapies that could help. I encourage people to not remain ignorant of what is available. World medicine IS available to us.

[Ya Mu]

Having spent more than a dozen years in a pharmaceutical research organization, offering "soup-to-nuts" services, including multinational clinical trials management, to most of "big pharma" (as well as many small. "virtual," and non-pharma companies), I'll say that many brilliant people do amazing work inside a framework of massive international fraud, abuse & corruption. Most governmental oversight consists of auditing to ensure that documentation is consistent w/ regulations & w/ internal SOPs and the primary penalty for problems is coughing up money that goes into the government's pocket (including extortion to stay silent).

In fact, clinical trials are outrageously expensive! (Ask me how I know?)

 

In spite of me knowing that there was much corruption in the industry, I was floored with the mainstream news program I referenced in my first post. Do people think that all meds are approved by the FDA with rigorous testing within the organization? Most people do. The investigative team went to INDIA, where there were approved companies that audit the drug companies research then make the recommendation to the FDA. There they BOUGHT approval. It was expensive, but they had, on camera, the head of the organization telling them they WOULD be approved for a certain fee, no problem. Simply disgusting.

 

Please do expound on the clinical trials details I think most simply do not understand how outrageous expensive this process is.