DreamBliss VS Belief

[Protector]

But isn't this just your belief?

- DreamBliss

 

Saying ''just'' implies that it's ''just'' a small thing but it's not

I don't like word "opinion" either because like "belief", it implies that it is different for other people from the person thinking it

And I think what I mentioned can be applied to your way of thinking there

 

I don't have problems with beliefs, but with some little political incorrectness

That political incorrectness can shape beliefs and made things contradictory

Like right there, where you mentioned that you don't believe in karma and you briefly mentioned what you think what karma is

Is it really? I mean sure, I hit some big dude, he lays me out on the floor, that's certainly cause and effect, but its not karma as I understand it. Karma would be something like I was a violent person in a past life and I hit a lot of people, so now I hit this big guy in this life and get my block knocked off

 

Karma is supposed to something like a bunch of issues you've been carrying around with you from previous lives that you have to work out. So naturally to believe in karma you have to believe in reincarnation, which is one of mankind's beliefs about the afterlife. So if there is no reincarnation, there is no karma.

- DreamBliss

Completely wrong, that's not karma and it doesn't rely on reincarnation

It might take a while to explain what it really is but it's better to just feel it

There are different types of it and you act not only on your own karma but of other people

Sins are like a subcategory of karma but you also have a different idea of that from mine, my idea is briefly described in my learning thread

 

There's this balance of nature thing that is sometimes being discussed on this forum

It kinda makes your third paragraph of things void

Since, you know, Taoist forum and sometimes you gotta discuss Tao itself, right?

 

Kinda a pain explaining something to someone who already has a predisposition to think one way while you have another way right here

But still, you know, we have here on the site the whole Tao Teh Ching in many different translations plus commentaries from other bums http://thetaobums.com/forum/161-tao-teh-ching/

It's freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Marblehead]

Because I believe myself to be a sinner, I am. That make any sense? Of course others, who know the intricasies of the Christian faith, know how to use my beliefs against me.

 

Exactly. But only in your own mind because you have allowed others to brainwash you. Having been brainwashed they can use you to their advantabe. Now, if you have no problem with being used then there is no problem.

 

... we have been programmed to believe in gravity, the laws of physics, and so forth. But how would the world be to someone who truly believed they could fly and defy gravity?

 

Best rest assured, I'm not jumping off any buildings just yet -

DreamBliss

 

One thing for certain - gravity sucks. And it sucks throughout the known universe. We don't even have to believe in gravity for it to suck. Just try to levitate.

[Brian]

 

 

This should have been blatantly obvious. As Christian I followed the 10 commandments. I believed I was a sinner, that when I broke any of these, I sinned. But these laws are mankind's laws, not universal laws. They are there to keep me from killing who I want, sleeping with who or what I want, and worshipping who or what I want, among other things. In this sense then my belief in these laws controls me and keeps me from acting like an animal. Furthermore, by believing I am a sinner I also believe I need to be saved, and of course only belief in Jesus, in a certain way, will save me. This keeps me a slave to God and this idea of the afterlife. In essence I become a slave to the beliefs of man in Heaven or Hell. I would end up, had I stayed in a Christian, in one of these, based on my beliefs. Also by believing I am a sinner I am in a perpetual cycle of sinning and forgiveness. Because I believe myself to be a sinner, I am. That make any sense? Of course others, who know the intricasies of the Christian faith, know how to use my beliefs against me.

 

 

 

An interesting experiement could be done here someday. Raise someone in a holographic environment where a child can be raised outside of any idea of the solidy of objects. Then plop them in the real world. Remember they have no preconcieved ideas of solidity. So can they walk through walls? Because remember our beliefs create our reality. You and I can't fly because we have been programmed to believe in gravity, the laws of physics, and so forth. But how would the world be to someone who truly believed they could fly and defy gravity?

 

Best rest assured, I'm not jumping off any buildings just yet -

DreamBliss

 

Ummm...

 

Gravity isn't an effect caused by attempts to describe it.

[DreamBliss]

All I was saying is that gravity is a belief too. When you get right down to it. We do all our scientific mumbo-jumbo and come up with something we call universal law. But we really don't know everything there is to know about gravity? Fifty years from now we'll be using anti-gravity, and throwing out many of the things we call univesal law now, and we still won't know everything about gravity.

 

Of course we also have to believe that whatever tests we have done to verify the existance of gravity are accurate, that the equipment is giving us correct readings, that those who read the equipment aren't making any mistakes so and so forth ad infinitum.

 

Ultimately everything we "know" about gravity is, for most of us, what we have been taught or personally experienced. So gravity will be what it is to us based on our beliefs and experience. But someone else who does not have those beliefs or experiences will believe something else, and to them that will be what gravity is or isn't.

 

Does this make any sense? Here is another way to put it, very simply, paraphrased from another source, "It is only real if it never changes." Since our knowledge of gravity is in constant evolution, thereby continisuly changing, it is not real!

 

But here's the mind bender... There may be some sort of design or law of gravity which may exist all or in part outside of mankind's current "knowing." Somebody has the blueprint for this force, assuming it even exists, and if it does exist we humans are still translating it.

 

We must always keep in mind that mankind has observed things falling and found themselves unable to fly since we came into existance. So we may have literally created a Tulpa called gravity as our explaination as to why we can't fly and how come things fall to the ground. Over the years and the multitude who adopted this same belief this Tulpa became very powerful, like the Christian God. Beliefs = reality. Even that idea is a belief! Now everything we do seems to justify the existance of this Tulpa named gravity we created. In reality it may not even exist at all!

 

Maybe I'm just weird but I rather enjoy thinking about this. Wondering just how far down this rabbit hole goes. This is the best ride ever, of course that's just my belief...

- DreamBliss

Edited November 21, 2012 by DreamBliss

[DreamBliss]

Saying ''just'' implies that it's ''just'' a small thing but it's not...

 

Completely wrong, that's not karma and it doesn't rely on reincarnation...

 

It's the importance we give our beliefs is what has caused so much bloodshed, loss and pain over the years of man's development. So when I say, "just..." it is to put it into persepctive. A belief should be seen as a small, unimportant thing. That way it is easier for us to let them go when they are wrong. Once we attatch a value to something, like a belief, we draw a line and fight anyone who crosses it.

 

As far as karma not depending on reincarnation I admit that I am a little confused here. I thought the two linked. Well I admit my understanding is limited in this area. Not going to study it right now. Have to work on other things. So for now I will accept that my understanding may be wrong here.

- DreamBliss

Edited November 21, 2012 by DreamBliss

[Apech]

Is it really? I mean sure, I hit some big dude, he lays me out on the floor, that's certainly cause and effect, but its not karma as I understand it. Karma would be something like I was a violent person in a past life and I hit a lot of people, so now I hit this big guy in this life and get my block knocked off

 

Karma is supposed to something like a bunch of issues you've been carrying around with you from previous lives that you have to work out. So naturally to believe in karma you have to believe in reincarnation, which is one of mankind's beliefs about the afterlife. So if there is no reincarnation, there is no karma.

- DreamBliss

 

 

Karma means action. So really what they are talking about is action and results. So if you understand that nothing happens in a vacuum then its easy to accept that whatever you do has an effect. This is a good rule for governing your ethical decisions. So you can see that it matters whether you make positive decisions and not negative ones. But it doesn't matter because some god sitting on high says it matters ... which I think is a false kind fo morality ... it matters because of the outcome or possible outcomes.

 

Its true that the effect is not usually or always immediate. For the result to arise the right conditions need to exists, just like if you plant a seed you don't get a plant straight away you have to wait for rain, sunlight, the right temperature and conditions for the seed to mature. So the result may not immediately affect you but the idea is that sooner or later there will be some result and to bear this in mind when making decisions.

 

Buddhists do not believe in reincarnation as such ... but in rebirth .... this is slightly different in that they would say that what continues after death is a mind stream ... that is some continuation in energy/consciousness and not an eternal soul. The thought that there is some kind of continuation after death is practically universal, even Neanderthal man left grave goods suggesting they thought that there was an afterlife. This doesn't mean its true of course ... but does mean it is natural for mankind to think it so.

[Apech]

What exists outside of belief is the pure, unfiltered, unaltered, real truth.

 

I guess I chose that definition of God because as Christian I put God in a box, or rather a book called the Bible. It was my attempt to free God. But I screwed up Here is my current definition:

 

I believe in God,

As the Source existing,

In whole or in any part,

Outside mankind's beliefs,

Or inside mankind's beliefs,

Or as any combination of the two.

 

I'll think about the rest of what you said.

- DreamBliss

 

I think that in 'improving' your concepts as expressed is the point of the whole thing. Beliefs are a way of expressing understanding but should not be clung on to if challenged. If they fall apart under challenge then they are not worth much anyway.

[Marblehead]

But we really don't know everything there is to know about gravity?

I hope I never implied that we (science) know everything about gravity. That was one of my arguments elsewhere on this forum. Science is still learning. But that is no reason to discard what we have already learned. Perhaps down the road we will have to change our mind. That shouldn't be a big deal although many people just can't manage to do that - rather hold with what we have even though it is but an illusion.

[Marblehead]

So for now I will accept that my understanding may be wrong here.

- DreamBliss

That is such a wonderful state of mind from which to go forward. Yeah, I'm hard-headed. But that's okay. I am still willing to listen and change my mind if someone presents logical information to disprove what I presently hold to.

 

I think that being skeptical, even of our own beliefs, is very healthy.

[DreamBliss]

I know it may be against forum rules, resurrecting a thread from the dead like this, but I had a thought today about beliefs, about what they are, and this seemed the best place to share it. It comes in the form of a question...

 

"Is a belief just something you say is true which you have not yet experienced?"

 

This requires a bit of thinking... Nobody believes in gravity. We all experience gravity, so we know it is real. A lot of children in America believe in Santa Clause. Yet if any of them actually saw a man in a red suit manifest before their Christmas tree and draw presents from a magic bag, those children would no longer say they believe in Santa Claus. For them it has become a fact, because they have experienced the reality of Santa Claus personally.

 

So many Christians say they believe in God, yet few of them have ever actually had any experience of God. If they ever do, they likey would no longer say they believed in God, because, again, it has become true for them.

 

Your thoughts?

Edited February 16, 2019 by DreamBliss

[rideforever]

The word is used differently by different people