Buddha vs Mara short video

[idiot_stimpy]

[GrandmasterP]

The guy with his back to the tree has the strategic advantage in a fight.

[idiot_stimpy]

I find this video to be very interesting in relation to the Buddhist concept of emptiness.

 

The phenomenal and conceptual world to be an illusion, a mirage, and does not inherently exist.

 

The seeing of 'subject' and 'object' as no more than ideas and labels, the mind falls into a deep peaceful space.

 

It cannot be rightly called space because it is not a concept, it cannot be labelled at all.

[konchog uma]

you're onto something idiot_stimpy

 

although i am pretty sure that the buddha taught that the world exists in a relative sense, just not in an absolute sense.

 

my lama has conveyed that to me...

[GrandmasterP]

We can't get lamas round here so we use horses.

[idiot_stimpy]

lol

[gatito]

@ idiot_stimpy

 

Thanks for posting this clip - it's spot-on!

 

It also reminded me of the cave scene in The Empire Strikes Back when Luke meets himself as Darth Vader.

 

I've never seen Little Buddha and it's now on my "to do" list thanks to you.

 

Is the rest if the film up to this standard?

[Jetsun]

I always suspected the true face of Mara could be Keanu Reeves

[idiot_stimpy]

@ idiot_stimpy

 

Thanks for posting this clip - it's spot-on!

 

It also reminded me of the cave scene in The Empire Strikes Back when Luke meets himself as Darth Vader.

 

I've never seen Little Buddha and it's now on my "to do" list thanks to you.

 

Is the rest if the film up to this standard?

 

 

Its a good movie. I remember watching it in the early nineties and completely forgot about it.

 

Definitely worth the watch if you're interested in Buddhism. The movie tells the story of the Buddha, his life and explains basic Buddhist philosophy, such as reincarnation and the middle path.

 

The heart sutra is chanted in one scene.

 

The video clip I posted it probably the most profound scene.

[gatito]

Thanks - it's appreciated.

 

I'm really looking forward to watching the full movie now - I don't know how I've missed it before - it looks like a classic.

[Simple_Jack]

 

Haha, Keanu Reeves...."Little Buddha" is definitely NOT a credible source of information on Buddhism. Look into the BBC documentary for info that is straight out of the Pali cannon/Agamas:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeQoeNH70fk

 

I find this video to be very interesting in relation to the Buddhist concept of emptiness.

 

Buddha never described his experience as "seeing the ego as illusion" or describes emptiness as "seeing through the illusion of ego." This is a Western concept, which doesn't exist as a valid indicator of experience in Buddhism. Anything associated with Freud or Jung pertaining to an Id, ego, super-ego, conscious and unconscious/collective unconscious are non-existent as indicators of conditioned experience in Buddhism. There's only ever ignorance, which drives the whole 12-fold chain of dependent origination.

 

http://www.accesstoi....15.0.than.html

 

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for aging and death?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition do aging and death come?' one should say, 'Aging and death come from birth as their requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for birth?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does birth come?' one should say, 'Birth comes from becoming as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for becoming?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does becoming come?' one should say, 'Becoming comes from clinging as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for clinging?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does clinging come?' one should say, 'Clinging comes from craving as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for craving?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does craving come?' one should say, 'Craving comes from feeling as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for feeling?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does feeling come?' one should say, 'Feeling comes from contact as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for contact?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does contact come?' one should say, 'Contact comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for name-and-form?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does name-and-form come?' one should say, 'Name-and-form comes from consciousness as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does consciousness come?' one should say, 'Consciousness comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'

"Thus, Ananda, from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress.

 

 

you're onto something idiot_stimpy

 

although i am pretty sure that the buddha taught that the world exists in a relative sense, just not in an absolute sense.

 

my lama has conveyed that to me...

 

in·her·ent/inˈhi(ə)rənt/ Adjective

• Existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute

 

Buddhism describes emptiness of all phenomena as free from the four propositions: It exists. It doesn't exist. It both exists and does not exist. It neither exists nor does not exist.

 

http://www.accesstoi...2.086.than.html

 

 

"What do you think, Anuradha: Is form constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"Is feeling constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Is perception constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Are fabrications constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Is consciousness constant or inconstant?

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."

 

http://www.dharmawhe...f=48&t=7701:

 

When the [ultimate] truth is explained as it is, the conventional is not obstructed; Independent of the conventional, no [ultimate] truth can be found. - Nagarjuna's "Bodhicittavivarana"

 

Since you're big into Dzogchen here's another quote from that thread:

 

 

........Jigme Lingpa paraphrases the well-known lines from the Heart Sutra to argue that the nondistinction between form and emptiness stated there is in harmony with the usual presentation of emptiness in the Great Perfection. The union of form and emptiness is not taken as a goal, but as the already present nature of that which manifests. This is the explanation given for the rejection of a conceptual, dualistic mode of establishing emptiness. A non-dualistic practice of emptiness is also emphasized in YL where Jigme Lingpa writes that in gnosis, "appearances are not cut with the razor of emptiness."

It is suggested that in KGN that the distinction between relative truth and ultimate truth is another false duality. The line is "In the awakened mind there is no relative or ultimate truth." In accordance with this rejection there are very few references to the two truths in any of these Longchen Nyingtig texts.

 

 

http://www.accesstoi...i/wheel277.html

 

"He who sees Dependent Arising sees the Dhamma; he who sees the Dhamma sees Dependent Arising."

 

 

Notes: In layman terms "subconscious" is used instead of "unconscious." Basically, you won't find Buddha describing anything that pertains to a conscious/subconscious/unconscious division; a "ego/egoic mind" nor a "non-ego/egoic mind." There's only avidya/avijja (ignorance) as the cause, for the conditioned arising of both emotional and cognitive obscurations.

 

 

The Buddha's first words after enlightenment were these: "Seeking but not finding the house builder, I traveled through the round of countless births. Oh, painful is birth ever and again! House builder you have now been seen. You shall not build the house again. Your rafters have been broken down; your ridge-pole is demolished too. My mind has now attained the unformed nibbana and reached the end of every kind of craving." Quoted from this website: http://www.vipassana....com/buddha.htm.

 

An explanation of the above can be found here http://www.dhammawhe...f=24&t=4603

 

 

...The architect was Craving or Attachment (tanha) a self-created force, a mental element latent in all. The discovery of the architect is the eradication of craving by attaining Arahantship which, in this utterance, is alluded to as the end of craving.

 

The rafters of this self-created house are the defilements (kilesa). The ridge-pole that supports the rafters is ignorance (avijja), the root cause of all defilements. The shattering of the ridge-pole of ignorance by wisdom results in the complete demolition of the house. The ridge-pole and the rafters are the material with which the architect builds this undesired house. With their destruction the architect is deprived of the wherewithal to rebuild the house which is not wanted. With the demolition of the house the mind attains the unconditioned which is Nibbana.p. 140-141

The Dhammapade Jara Vagga Ch. 11 Old Age.trans. by Narada Thera ISBN 955-8129-82-8 Buddhist Cultural Centre Dehiwela, Sri Lanka.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

[GrandmasterP]

I always suspected the true face of Mara could be Keanu Reeves

 

......

Thank you.

I thought that face was familiar.

[Simple_Jack]

http://www.accesstoi...i/wheel277.html

 

"He who sees Dependent Arising sees the Dhamma; he who sees the Dhamma sees Dependent Arising."

I'm quoting a huge chunk of Nagarjuna's Bodhicittavivarana http://www.dalailama...ana_English.pdf (an alternate translation that separates a chapter of verses according by topic http://web.mit.edu/m...rana_verses.pdf. The former is a better translation, but the latter is helpful to understand the context of the verses)

 

Devoid of all real entities;

Utterly discarding all objects and subjects,

Such as aggregates, elements and sense-fields;

Due to sameness of selflessness of all phenomena,

One's mind is primordially unborn;

It is in the nature of emptiness.

 

1

Bowing to the glorious Vajra Holder

Who embodies the awakening mind,

I shall explain here the meditative practice

Of awakening mind that destroys cyclic existence.

2

The Buddhas maintain the awakening mind

To be not obscured by such conceptions

As consciousness of “self,” “aggregates” and so on;

It is always characterized by emptiness.

3

It is with a mind moistened by compassion

That you must cultivate [awakening mind] with effort.

The Buddhas who embody great compassion

Constantly develop this awakening mind.

4

The self postulated by the extremists,

When you thoroughly analyze it with reasoning,

Within all the aggregates [of body and mind],

Nowhere can you find a locus for this.

5

Aggregates exist [but] are not permanent;

They do not have the nature of selfhood.

A permanent and an impermanent cannot

Exist as the support and the supported.

6

If the so-called self does not exist,

How can the so-called agent be permanent?

It there were things then one could

Investigate their attributes in the world.

7

Since a permanent cannot function [to cause]

In gradual or instantaneous terms,

So both without and within,

No such permanent entity exists.

8

If it were potent why would it be dependent?

For it would bring forth [everything] at once.

That which depends upon something else

Is neither eternal nor potent.

9

If it were an entity it would not be permanent

For entities are always momentary;

And with respect to impermanent entities,

Agency has not been negated.

10

This world devoid of self and so on

Is utterly vanquished by the notions

Of aggregates, elements and the sense-fields,

And that of object and subject.

11

[Thus the Buddhas] who seek to help others

Have taught to the Disciples

The five aggregates: form, feelings, perception,

volitional forces and consciousness.

12

The excellent among the bi-peds

Always taught as well “Forms appear as mass of foams;

Feelings resemble bubbles in water;

And perception is like a mirage;

13

Mental formations are like the plantain trees;

Consciousness is like a magical illusion.”

Presenting the aggregates in this manner,

[The Buddhas] taught thus to the bodhisattvas.

14

That which is characterized by the four great elements

Is clearly taught to be the aggregate of form.

The rest are invariably established

Therefore as devoid of material form.

15

Through this the eyes, visible forms and so forth,

Which are described as the elements,

These should be known also as [the twelve] sense-fields,

And as the objects and the subjects as well.

16

Neither atom of form exists nor is sense organ elsewhere;

Even more no sense organ as agent exists;

So the producer and the produced

Are utterly unsuited for production.

17

The atoms of form do not produce sense perceptions,

For they transcend the realm of the senses.

[if asserted] that they are produce through aggregation,

[Production through] collection too is not accepted.

18

Through division in terms of spatial dimensions

Even the atom is seen as possessing parts;

That which is analyzed in terms of parts,

How can it logically be [an indivisible] atom?

22

In terms of objects and subjects,

Whatever appears to the consciousness,

Apart from the cognitions themselves,

No external objects exist anywhere.

23

So there are no external objects at all

Existing in the mode of entities.

The very perceptions of the individual consciousnesses

Arise as appearances of the forms.

24

Just as a person whose mind is deluded

Sees magical illusions and mirages,

And the cities of gandharva spirits,

So too forms and so on are perceived.

39

The cognizer perceives the cognizable;

Without the cognizable there is no cognition;

Therefore why do you not admit

That neither object nor subject exists [at all]?

40

The mind is but a mere name;

Apart from its name it exists as nothing;

So view consciousness as a mere name;

Name too has no intrinsic nature.

41

Either within or likewise without,

Or somewhere in between the two,

The conquerors have never found the mind;

So the mind has the nature of an illusion.

42

The distinctions of colors and shapes,

Or that of object and subject,

Of male, female and the neuter –

The mind has no such fixed forms.

43

In brief the Buddhas have never seen

Nor will they ever see [such a mind];

So how can they see it as intrinsic nature

That which is devoid of intrinsic nature?

44

“Entity” is a conceptualization;

Absence of conceptualization is emptiness;

Where conceptualization occurs,

How can there be emptiness?

45

The mind in terms of the perceived and perceiver,

This the Tathagatas have never seen;

Where there is the perceived and perceiver,

There is no enlightenment.

46

Devoid of characteristics and origination,

Devoid of substantive reality and transcending speech,

Space, awakening mind and enlightenment

Possess the characteristics of non-duality.

53

To whom consciousness is momentary,

To them it cannot be permanent;

So if the mind is impermanent,

How could it be inconsistent with emptiness?

54

In brief if the Buddhas uphold

The mind to be impermanent,

How would they not uphold

That it is empty as well.

55

From the very beginning itself

The mind never had any [intrinsic] nature;

It is not being stated here that an entity

Which possesses intrinsic existence [somehow] lacks this.

56

If one asserts this one abandons

The locus of selfhood in the mind;

It’s not the nature of things

To transcend one’s own intrinsic nature.

57

Just as sweetness is the nature of molasses

And heat the nature of fire,

Likewise we maintain that

The nature of all phenomena is emptiness.

58

When one speaks of emptiness as the nature [of phenomena],

One in no sense propounds nihilism;

By the same token one does not

Propound eternalism either.

59

Starting with ignorance and ending with aging,

All processes that arise from

The twelve links of dependent origination,

We accept them to be like a dream and an illusion.

60

This wheel with twelve links

Rolls along the road of cyclic existence;

Outside this there cannot be sentient beings

Experiencing the fruits of their deeds.

61

Just as in dependence upon a mirror

A full image of one’s face appears,

The face did not move onto the mirror;

Yet without it there is no image [of the face].

62

Likewise aggregates recompose in a new existence;

Yet the wise always understand

That no one is born in another existence,

Nor does someone transfer to such existence.

63

In brief from empty phenomena

Empty phenomena arise;

Agent, karma, fruits, and their enjoyer –

The conqueror taught these to be [only] conventional.

64

Just as the sound of a drum as well as a shoot

Are produced from a collection [of factors],

We accept the external world of dependent origination

To be like a dream and an illusion.

65

That phenomena are born from causes

Can never be inconsistent [with facts];

Since the cause is empty of cause,

We understand it to be empty of origination.

66

The non-origination of all phenomena

Is clearly taught to be emptiness;

In brief the five aggregates are denoted

By [the expression] “all phenomena.”

67

When the [ultimate] truth is explained as it is

The conventional is not obstructed;

Independent of the conventional

No [ultimate] truth can be found.

68

The conventional is taught to be emptiness;

The emptiness itself is the conventional;

One does not occur without the other,

Just as [being] produced and impermanent.

69

The conventional arises from afflictions and karma;

And karma arises from the mind;

The mind is accumulated by the propensities;

When free from propensities it’s happiness.

70

A happy mind is tranquil indeed;

A tranquil mind is not confused;

To have no confusion is to understand the truth;

By understanding the truth one attains freedom.

71

It’s described as suchness and as the reality-limit,

As signlessness and as the ultimate truth,

For anyone wondering why plantain trees are used as a simile for mental formations: They have hollow trunks, thus representing "corelessness."

 

Here's something from Dzogchen: These are excerpts from Longchenpa's The Treasury Of Natural Perfection [Natural Perfection: Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen by Keith Dowman http://books.google....8;q&f=false:]

 

"In the universal womb that is boundless space

all forms of matter and energy occur as a flux of the four elements,

but all are empty forms, absent in reality;

all phenomena, arising in pure mind, are like that.

 

Magical illusion, whatever it's shape,

lacks substance, empty in nature;

likewise, all experience of the world, arisen in the moment,

unstirring from pure mind, is insubstantial evanescence.

 

Just as a dream is a part of sleep,

unreal gossamer in it's arising,

so all and everything is pure mind,

never separated from it,

and without substance or attribute.

 

....Just as the objective field is absent in reality,

so 'the knower' - in actuality pure mind,

in essence and absence, is like the clear sky:

know it in it's ineffable reality!

 

....In total presence, the nature of mind that is like the sky,

where there is no duality, no distinction, no gradation,

there is no view nor meditation nor commitment to observe,

no diligent ideal conduct, no pristine awareness to unveil,

no training in the stages and no path to tread,

no subtle level of realization, and no final union.

 

...... Constantly deconstructing, investigating keenly,

not even the slightest substance can be found;

and in the undivided moment of nondual perception

we abide in the natural state of perfection.

 

Absent when scrutinized, absent when ignored,

not even an iota of solid matter is attested;

so all aspects of experience are always absent -

know it as nothing but magical illusion!"

Edited November 22, 2012 by Simple_Jack

[konchog uma]

What you have said is not in accord with what Buddhism teaches. Did you understand your lama correctly? Buddhism describes emptiness of all phenomena as free from the four propositions: It exists. It doesn't exist. It both exists and does not exist. It neither exists nor does not exist.

 

simple jack,

 

thank you for your input. I do not claim to have understood him correctly. He says there is a reality that we need to pay attention to. We were talking about emptiness and luminosity and it was quite some time ago so i am not sure that what i am saying is accurate either.

Edited November 23, 2012 by anamatva

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Simple Jack,

So, when this web page says, are they wrong?

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/intro_bud.htm

 

The Five Skandhas

The Buddhist doctrine of egolessness seems to be a bit confusing to westerners. I think this is because there is some confusion as to what is meant by ego. Ego, in the Buddhist sense, is quite different from the Freudian ego. The Buddhist ego is a collection of mental events classified into five categories, called skandhas, loosely translated as bundles, or heaps.

If we were to borrow a western exp

ression, we could say that "in the beginning" things were going along quite well. At some point, however, there was a loss of confidence in the way things were going. There was a kind of primordial panic which produced confusion about what was happening. Rather than acknowledging this loss of confidence, there was an identification with the panic and confusion. Ego began to form. This is known as the first skandha, the skandha of form.

After the identification with confusion, ego begins to explore how it feels about the formation of this experience. If we like the experience, we try to draw it in. If we dislike it, we try to push it away, or destroy it. If we feel neutral about it, we just ignore it. The way we feel about the experience is called the skandha of form; what we try to do about it is known as the skandha of impulse/perception.

The next stage is to try to identify, or label the experience. If we can put it into a category, we can manipulate it better. Then we would have a whole bag of tricks to use on it. This is the skandha of concept.

The final step in the birth of ego, is called the skandha of consciousness. Ego begins to churn thoughts and emotions around and around. This makes ego feel solid and real. The churning around and around is called samsara -- literally, to whirl about. The way ego feels about its situation (skandha of feeling) determines which of the six realms of existence it creates for itself.

 

TI

[mewtwo]

 

keanu reeves is truely the buddha lol

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

simple jack,

 

thank you for your input. I do not claim to have understood him correctly. He says there is a reality that we need to pay attention to. We were talking about emptiness and luminosity and it was quite some time ago so i am not sure that what i am saying is accurate either.

Though, here's another sutta detailing what the buddha taught as the middle way free from all extremes:

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.090.than.html

Channa Sutta: To Channa

 

On one occasion many elder monks were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then in the late afternoon Ven. Channa left his seclusion and, taking his key, went from dwelling to dwelling, saying to the elder monks, "May the venerable elders exhort me, may the venerable elders teach me, may the venerable elders give me a Dhamma talk so that I might see the Dhamma."

When this was said, the elder monks said to Ven. Channa, "Form, friend Channa, is inconstant. Feeling is inconstant. Perception is inconstant. Fabrications are inconstant. Consciousness is inconstant. Form is not-self. Feeling is not-self. Perception is not-self. Fabrications are not-self. Consciousness is not-self. All fabrications are inconstant. All phenomena are not-self."

Then the thought occurred to Ven. Channa, "I, too, think that form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant; form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self; all fabrications are inconstant; all phenomena are not-self. But still my mind does not leap up, grow confident, steadfast, & released[1] in the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, Unbinding. Instead, agitation & clinging arise, and my intellect pulls back, thinking, 'But who, then, is my self?' But this thought doesn't occur to one who sees the Dhamma. So who might teach me the Dhamma so that I might see the Dhamma?"

Then the thought occurred to Ven. Channa, "This Ven. Ananda is staying at Kosambi in Ghosita's Park. He has been praised by the Teacher and is esteemed by his knowledgeable fellows in the holy life. He is capable of teaching me the Dhamma so that I might see the Dhamma, and I have sudden trust in him. Why don't I go to Ven. Ananda?"

So, setting his lodgings in order and carrying his robes & bowl, Ven. Channa went to Kosambi to where Ven. Ananda was staying in Ghosita's Park. On arrival, he exchanged courteous greetings with the Ven. Ananda. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he [told Ven. Ananda what had happened and added], "May Ven. Ananda exhort me, may Ven. Ananda teach me, may Ven. Ananda give me a Dhamma talk so that I might see the Dhamma."

"Even this much makes me feel gratified & satisfied with Ven. Channa, that he opens up & breaks down his stubbornness. So lend ear, friend Channa. You are capable of understanding the Dhamma."

Then a sudden great rapture & joy welled up in Ven. Channa at the thought, "So I am capable of understanding the Dhamma!"

"Face-to-face with the Blessed One have I heard this, friend Channa. Face-to-face with him have I learned the exhortation he gave to the bhikkhu Kaccayanagotta:[2] 'By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by[3] a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, "non-existence" with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, "existence" with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"'By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on "my self." He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'"Everything exists": That is one extreme. "Everything doesn't exist": That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"'Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'

"That's how it is, friend Ananda, for those who have friends in the holy life like Ven. Ananda — sympathetic, helpful, exhorting, & teaching. Just now, for me, listening to Ven. Ananda's Dhamma-teaching, has the Dhamma been penetrated."

[konchog uma]

thanks simple jack,

 

i appreciate your point of view. I don't want to pass on a mistaken version of the dharma at all.. i strive for clear understanding. Yes as you note, emptiness is a slippery concept

 

best to you, and thank you for pointing out those sutras

[Tibetan_Ice]

Though, here's another sutta detailing what the buddha taught as the middle way free from all extremes:

 

Hi Simple Jack,

Your post has motivated me to learn about the five aggregates, or the skandhas.. and why they prove no self.

 

However, after reading your quotes and comparing it to the wiki, it seems to me that order of skandas is different..

First comes, form, then sensation. Next, perception followed by mental formations. Lastly comes consciousness..

Is this not correct?

 

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandha

 

The five skandhas

The sutras describe five aggregates:[d]

1."form" or "matter"[e] (Skt., Pāli rūpa; Tib. gzugs): external and internal matter. Externally, rupa is the physical world. Internally, rupa includes the material body and the physical sense organs.[f]

2."sensation" or "feeling" (Skt., Pāli vedanā; Tib. tshor-ba): sensing an object[g] as either pleasant or unpleasant or neutral.[h]

3."perception", "conception", "apperception", "cognition", or "discrimination" (Skt. samjñā, Pāli saññā, Tib. 'du-shes): registers whether an object is recognized or not (for instance, the sound of a bell or the shape of a tree).

4."mental formations", "impulses", "volition", or "compositional factors" (Skt. samskāra, Pāli saṅkhāra, Tib. 'du-byed): all types of mental habits, thoughts, ideas, opinions, prejudices, compulsions, and decisions triggered by an object.[j]

5."consciousness" or "discernment"[k] (Skt. vijñāna, Pāli viññāṇa,[l] Tib. rnam-par-shes-pa):

1.In the Nikayas/Āgamas: cognizance,[5][m] that which discerns[6][n]

2.In the Abhidhamma: a series of rapidly changing interconnected discrete acts of cognizance.[o]

3.In some Mahayana sources: the base that supports all experience.[p]

 

The Buddhist literature describes the aggregates as arising in a linear or progressive fashion, from form to feeling to perception to mental formations to consciousness.[q] In the early texts, the scheme of the five aggregates is not meant to be an exhaustive classification of the human being. Rather it describes various aspects of the way an individual manifests.

 

TI

Edited November 27, 2012 by Tibetan_Ice

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Simple_Jack]

Hi Simple Jack,

So, when this web page says, are they wrong?

http://www.buddhanet...g/intro_bud.htm

No, not necessarily because they make the distinction between the Freudian term and how Buddhism uses it. Though, I do think that using the term "egolessness" can be misleading and vague when it comes to describing no-self and sunyata in Buddhism. From the lectures I've attended, seeing how translators of sutras and works by past masters used it, and how current masters use "ego/ego-grasping:" It is always referring to the self/Self and self-grasping respectively. Whereby "egolessness" is referring to anatman (in other words, how phenomena are lacking intrinsic existence.) It's inevitable that with the transmission of the buddhadharma here in the West, that translators or those lecturing on the principles of Buddhism, are going to convey the teachings in a lexicon familiar to Westerners.

 

The Pali canon is very precise and consistent in the refutation of the views of both eternalists and nihilists (that is why IMO, it should be considered the base for understanding the higher teachings of Mahayana Buddhism.) It clearly explains Right View as seeing the 5 aggregates as a relative process of interdependent arising.

 

Though let's face it, there can also be discrepancies with anatta, which can lead to the misunderstanding that it's some sort of affirming-negation like the "neti-neti" of Advaita Vedanta. There's also the possibility of people seeing "no-self" and concluding that it is the same as in Neo-Advaitan terms when referring to the "egoic-mind" or the "small-self" (when in fact it is about the non-reification of the aggregate of consciousness as an unchanging, eternal, absolute Self or any of the aggregates for that matter.)

[Simple_Jack]

However, after reading your quotes and comparing it to the wiki, it seems to me that order of skandas is different..

First comes, form, then sensation. Next, perception followed by mental formations. Lastly comes consciousness..

Is this not correct?

The 5 skandha scheme is a conceptual model of the interdependent process of experience. Look into the connected discourses on accesstoinsight, the 12 nidanas and Nagarjuna's "Heart of Dependent Origination." For a more fruitful conversation on this, you should go to dhammawheel or the dharmaoverground forums.

 

http://www.accesstoi...2.056.than.html

 

Parivatta Sutta: The (Fourfold) Round

 

"The fourfold round in what way? I had direct knowledge of form... of the origination of form... of the cessation of form... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of form.

"I had direct knowledge of feeling...

"I had direct knowledge of perception...

"I had direct knowledge of fabrications...

"I had direct knowledge of consciousness... of the origination of consciousness... of the cessation of consciousness... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness.

 

"And what is form? The four great existents[1] and the form derived from them: this is called form. From the origination of nutriment comes the origination of form. From the cessation of nutriment comes the cessation of form. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of form, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

 

"And what is feeling? These six classes of feeling — feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact, feeling born of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body-contact, feeling born of intellect-contact: this is called feeling. From the origination of contact comes the origination of feeling. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of feeling...

 

"And what is perception? These six classes of perception — perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception. From the origination of contact comes the origination of perception. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception...

 

"And what are fabrications? These six classes of intention — intention with regard to form, intention with regard to sound, intention with regard to smell, intention with regard to taste, intention with regard to tactile sensation, intention with regard to ideas: these are called fabrications. From the origination of contact comes the origination of fabrications. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of fabrications. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of fabrications...

 

"And what is consciousness? These six classes of consciousness — eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness: this is called consciousness. From the origination of name-&-form comes the origination of consciousness. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

 

"For any brahmans or contemplatives who by directly knowing consciousness in this way, directly knowing the origination of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the cessation of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness in this way, are practicing for disenchantment — dispassion — cessation with regard to consciousness, they are practicing rightly. Those who are practicing rightly are firmly based in this doctrine & discipline. And any brahmans or contemplatives who by directly knowing consciousness in this way, directly knowing the origination of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the cessation of consciousness in this way, directly knowing the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness in this way, are — from disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, lack of clinging/sustenance with regard to consciousness — released, they are well-released. Those who are well-released are fully accomplished. And with those who are fully accomplished, there is no cycle for the sake of describing them."

 

Notes

1. Dhatu: the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.

 

 

http://www.accesstoi...2.057.than.html

 

Sattatthana Sutta: Seven Bases - The Buddha explains how one becomes an arahant* through mastery of the seven-fold skill of analyzing the five aggregates.

 

"And how is a monk skilled in seven bases? There is the case where a monk discerns form, the origination of form, the cessation of form, the path of practice leading to the cessation of form. He discerns the allure of form, the drawback of form, and the escape from form.

"He discerns feeling... He discerns perception... He discerns fabrications...

"He discerns consciousness, the origination of consciousness, the cessation of consciousness, the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness. He discerns the allure of consciousness, the drawback of consciousness, and the escape from consciousness.

 

...The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on feeling: that is the allure of feeling. The fact that feeling is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of feeling. The subduing of desire & passion for feeling, the abandoning of desire & passion for feeling: that is the escape from feeling...

 

...The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on perception: that is the allure of perception. The fact that perception is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of perception. The subduing of desire & passion for perception, the abandoning of desire & passion for perception: that is the escape from perception...

 

...The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on fabrications: that is the allure of fabrications. The fact that fabrications are inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of fabrications. The subduing of desire & passion for fabrications, the abandoning of desire & passion for fabrications: that is the escape from fabrications...

 

...The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on consciousness: that is the allure of consciousness. The fact that consciousness is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of consciousness. The subduing of desire & passion for consciousness, the abandoning of desire & passion for consciousness: that is the escape from consciousness....

 

"This is how a monk is skilled in seven bases.

"And how does a monk have three modes of investigation? There is the case where a monk investigates in terms of properties, investigates in terms of sense spheres, investigates in terms of dependent co-arising. This is how a monk has three modes of investigation.

"A monk who is skilled in seven bases and has three modes of investigation is fulfilled and fully accomplished in this doctrine & discipline — the ultimate person."

*The Hinayana stages of enlightenment are as follows: Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, and Arahat. All share the same insight into the 3 characteristics, with the only exception that each stage is a higher degree of purification from the fetters. Abhidharma/Abhidhamma is a good place to look for detailed info on this.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[idiot_stimpy]

How do you compare 'Right View', with that of the Heart Sutra?