Buddha vs Mara short video

[RongzomFan]

Hi Simple Jack,

Your post has motivated me to learn about the five aggregates, or the skandhas.. and why they prove no self.

 

self" is like Intel 486. Old and outdated.

 

Loppon Malcolm, Allan Wallace etc. uses the word identity, and so does everyone else nowadays.

Edited November 27, 2012 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Advaita Vedanta.

 

Buddhism - lacks the identity (atman) imputed by mere conceptual labels

Advaita Vedanta - identity is actually Brahman

Edited November 27, 2012 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

self" is like Intel 486. Old and outdated.

 

Loppon Malcolm, Allan Wallace etc. uses the word identity, and so does everyone else nowadays.

 

Well, there are more than 100 occurences of the word "self" on the linked page below, (and only 8 occurences of the word "identity"). So, until they change that definition, I will continue to use the word "self" despite being old and outdated..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta

 

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Simple Jack,

Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to explain all of this.

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

Well, there are more than 100 occurences of the word "self" on the linked page below, (and only 8 occurences of the word "identity"). So, until they change that definition, I will continue to use the word "self" despite being old and outdated..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta

 

 

TI

 

 

Its funny you cite a Wikipedia page that is specifically labelled as crap in the top banner

Edited November 28, 2012 by alwayson

[Simple_Jack]

I'm quoting a huge chunk of Nagarjuna's Bodhicittavivarana http://www.dalailama...ana_English.pdf (an alternate translation that separates a chapter of verses according by topic http://web.mit.edu/m...rana_verses.pdf. The former is a better translation, but the latter is helpful to understand the context of the verses)

 

44

“Entity” is a conceptualization;

Absence of conceptualization is emptiness;

Where conceptualization occurs,

How can there be emptiness?

Buddhism - lacks the identity (atman) imputed by mere conceptual labels

Advaita Vedanta - identity is actually Brahman

Something that needs to be pointed out is the specific context of what "conceptualization" means in Buddhism:

 

http://www.dharmawhe...t=4461&start=40

 

Malcolm: Here, when we say non-conceptual, we do not mean a mind in which there is an absence of thought.

 

When consciousness is freed from signs and characteristics, this is called the realization of emptiness. An non-conceptual mind may still indeed be trapped by signs and characteristics.

 

Jnana: Conceptual = vikalpa.

Non-conceptual = nirvikalpa.

 

According to Kamalaśīla, śamatha is non-conceptual (nirvikalpa), vipaśyanā is conceptual (savikalpa), and the resultant gnosis realized through correct vipaśyanā is non-conceptual (nirvikalpajñāna).

Edited November 28, 2012 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

Hi Simple Jack,

Your post has motivated me to learn about the five aggregates, or the skandhas.. and why they prove no self.

 

Its not complicated. You are just a bundle of 5 aggregates.

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

How do you compare 'Right View', with that of the Heart Sutra?

Right View is dependent origination. The "Heart Sutra" is about the realization of sunyata (twofold emptiness of persons and phenomena) i.e. dependent origination.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5686&start=20

 

Malcolm: The meaning of the heart sutra is very simple -- it is about the inseparability of samsara and nirvana. That is simple, but it is also profound.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=8754

 

Bonsai Doug: This line is giving me problems:

There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,

no end to suffering, no path to follow.

 

Can someone either explain how this is not negating the 4 Truths and The [Eightfold] Path,

 

Jnana*: This statement pertains to the ultimate, which is emptiness. Emptiness means that all phenomena lack self-nature (niḥsvabhāvatā), and by realizing emptiness in meditative equipoise one abandons the recognition of arising, duration, and dissolution (utpādasthitibhaṅga). This is equivalent to realizing the truth of the cessation of suffering (duḥkhanirodha āryasatya). Thus, the quote you provided doesn't negate the four noble truths and the noble eightfold path as conventionally true and soteriologically necessary for awakening. In fact, the four noble truths and the 37 requisites of awakening are mentioned and explained in the longer Prajñāpāramitā Sūtras.

*Jnana is able to read and translate Sanskrit, Tibetan and Pali literature.

 

This is what Patrul Rinpoche has to say about the 4 noble truths and 8-fold noble path in Mahayana Buddhism:

 

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/patrul-rinpoche/stages-and-path

 

3. Path of Seeing

The path of seeing is so called because it is the stage at which we first see the supermundane wisdom of the noble ones.

The root text says:

Mindfulness, discernment and so on… May we reach the stage…!

The meaning of this is as follows:

The enlightenment factor of the precise discernment of phenomena(23) refers, in general, to the wisdom that precisely discerns the individual aspects of all things and events. Here, in this context, it applies more specifically to the knowledge and acceptance, and then subsequent knowledge and acceptance, of the character of each of the four noble truths. In other words, it refers to the sixteen moments of acceptance and knowledge, during which the fundamental nature of all the specific characteristics of phenomena is shown to be beyond any conceptual elaboration, and we accept this without fear.

 

4. The Path of Meditation

The path of meditation consists of meditating on, and gaining familiarity with, the wisdom that was realized on the path of seeing. The training here is in the noble eightfold path.

The root text says:

View, intention, speech…. May we traverse….!

The meaning of this is as follows:

Since non-conceptual wisdom has been realized on the path of seeing, there is genuine realization of the view of how things really are, which is the correct view(30).

Through the power of this [correct view], no destructive emotions arise in the mind, and all thoughts are spontaneously virtuous, so there is correct intention(31).

When the mind is virtuous, non-virtues of body and speech will not arise, and all that is said will be of benefit to beings. This is correct speech(32).

Whatever actions one does will be for the benefit of others, so there is correct action(33).

Always content, never stained by the five styles of unethical livelihood, there is correct livelihood(34). The five styles of unethical livelihood are: 1) hypocrisy; 2) flattery; 3) soliciting; 4) expropriating; and 5) calculated generosity. All these five are abandoned.

Being diligent, having eliminated weariness and fatigue while working for others’ benefit, there is correct effort(35).

Always maintaining the flow of mindful awareness, there is correct mindfulness(36).

Remaining in the meditative equipoise of the fourth dhyana and similar states, and entering into various forms of samadhi, there is correct concentration(37).

Edited November 28, 2012 by Simple_Jack

[Tibetan_Ice]

Its funny you cite a Wikipedia page that is specifically labelled as crap in the top banner

 

You really should take a course in philosophy.. Truth is where you find it, regardless of the source.

 

But in hopes that you might take off your "bullshit" glasses, here are some other quotes, perhaps from more reputable sources.. and please notice that the word "identity" is not used at all.

 

Encyclopedia Britannica

anatta

in Buddhism, the doctrine that there is in humans no permanent, underlying substance that can be called the soul. Instead, the individual is compounded of five factors (Pali khandha; Sanskrit skandha) that are constantly changing. The concept of anatta, or anatman, is a departure from the Hindu belief in atman ("the self"). The absence of a self, anicca (the impermanence of all being), and dukkha ("suffering") are the three characteristics of all existence (ti-lakkhana). Recognition of these three doctrines-anatta, anicca, and dukkha-constitutes "right understanding."

 

Oh, here is something from someone who must also be "old and outdated"...

 

Master Namkhai Norbu:

In the same way, throughout limitless time we have been suffering from

the serious illness of being subject to the dualistic condition, and

the only remedy for this illness is real knowledge of the state of

self-liberation without falling into limitations.

When one is in contemplation, in the continuation of the awareness

of the true State, then it is not necessary to consider one's way of

behaving as important, but, on the other hand, for someone who is

beginning to practise, there is no way of entering into practice other

than by alternating sessions of sitting meditation with one's daily

life. This is because we have such strong attachment, based on

logical thinking, on regarding the objects of our senses as being

concrete, and, even more so, based on our material body made of

flesh and blood.

When we meditate on the 'absence of selfnature', examining

mentally our head and the limbs of our body, eliminating them one by

one as 'without self', we can finally arrive at establishing that there

is no 'self or 'I'.

But this 'absence of self-nature' remains nothing but a piece of

knowledge arrived at through intellectual analysis, and there is as

yet no real knowledge of this 'absence of self-nature'. Because,

while we are cosily talking about this 'absence of self-nature', if it

should happen that we get a thorn in our foot, there's no doubt that

we'll right away be yelping 'ow! ow! ow!' This shows that we are still

subject to the dualistic condition and that the 'absence of self-

nature' so loudly proclaimed with our mouth has not become a real

lived state for us. For this reason it is indispensable to regard as

extremely important the presence of awareness which is the basis

of self-liberation in one's daily conduct.

 

That quote, contained 9 occurences of the word "self" and not one occurence of the word "identity"..

 

 

And this video, is titled "Choegyal Namkhai Norbu - Dzogchen - Self-Liberation" not "Identity-Liberation"..

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHmaBRlmYNw

 

 

 

So quit jerking my chain..

 

TI

[RongzomFan]

I don't remember seeing Malcolm using "identity/identityless" a whole lot

 

Well he actually does:

 

http://www.dharmawhe...start=40#p77631

 

So quit jerking my chain..

 

TI

 

Encyclopedia Britannica

 

And as you know Namkhai Norbu has translators that write for him.

 

That passage you cited was translated TWICE, into Italian by Adriano Clemente and into English by John Shane.

Edited November 28, 2012 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

You really should take a course in philosophy.. Truth is where you find it, regardless of the source.

 

No thanks. 99.9% of the world's philosophy is realist.

Edited November 28, 2012 by alwayson

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

I knew you were going to bring this thread up! Why? Because, I found it while doing a search last nite. I said he didn't "use it a whole lot" meaning that I haven't seen him use it many times on Dharmawheel. Can you find where he sates that using "no-self" or using "selflessness" (when translating anatman) is outdated or incorrect? If you can find where he specifically states that using the word "self" is an outdated translation of atman and where he states that "identity" is the correct translation, please post it here.

 

I think that post is abundantly clear in itself.

 

The post is also an excellent explanation of the Two Truths from Candrakriti, although you have to read it about 100 times before it sinks in.

Edited November 28, 2012 by alwayson

[Jeff]

Thanks for Malcolm's excellent post. Do either of you know why he stopped posting on Dharmawheel? He is missed.

 

[RongzomFan]

Thanks for Malcolm's excellent post. Do either of you know why he stopped posting on Dharmawheel? He is missed.

 

 

He was tired of repeating the same things over and over again. And he's got better things to do.

[Jeff]

He was tired of repeating the same things over and over again. And he's got better things to do.

 

Makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

since the majority of people and translated texts continue to use it (making it a more familiar reference.)

 

I am not sure thats the case.

 

 

What does it mean to say a table lacks "self"?

Edited November 29, 2012 by alwayson

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

Because, you don't read much outside the sphere of Vajrayana???

 

Karl Brunnoholz translates Pali Canon passages using identity for atman

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

Also, whatever has been translated over on accesstoinsight

 

Even the mods on Dhamma Wheel bash the guy who runs that

[RongzomFan]

Malcolm still posts here:

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=Malcolm&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

[Jeff]

Malcolm still posts here:

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/search.php?keywords=&terms=all&author=Malcolm&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

 

Thank you.