East-West mind difference

[Jetsun]

[eye_of_the_storm]

I think western mystical texts are more accessible to the western mind and eastern mystical texts are more accessible to the eastern mind.

 

Though with some study it doesn't matter overly I suppose... maybe you would save yourself some time / maybe not

 

From a beginner perspective perhaps it would be best to study from ones own traditions first...

 

Though I think many are so disillusioned with the dogma of the church etc they simply abandon all western thought and run for the hills?

 

Taking responsibility for ones own spiritual growth / self determination is a good start

Edited November 21, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Apech]

@OP

 

That's a very interesting observation. It might explain the marked difference in how the dharma seems to develop in westerners compared to easterners. It is really easy to see how happy, friendly and open the Tibetans and others are compared with the rather withdrawn, worried and self negating westerners.

[GrandmasterP]

The most accessible 'eastern' literature for a western mindset IMO comes from borderlines where east and west blend

Academic Buddhisms for example via University of Hawaii where there is a large Japanese- American faculty.

The Phillipine Eskrima canon is superb because their dissolved-diaspora in the west feeds back into and informs the 'Ur' texts to produce something that retains the original yet is perhaps more accessible to a western reader.

You don't get any of that with Tibetan Buddhisms for some reason, westerners who take to it seem to make the futile attempt to 'go native' hence the mess.

[C T]

One aspect which sets Vajrayana apart from other traditions is the encouragement given to initiates to experiment and work with various enlightened aspects/qualities peculiar to the different Buddha families.

 

This is very important, for practitioners, be they from the east or west.

 

I believe one major cause of confusion, which quietly prompts inner frustration and disillusionment, is the fact that western practitioners do not fully grasp the vital import of this, and hence, either pick an unsuitable yidam (role model) or simply have not been made to understand why working with a yidam is fundamental to a harmonious and progressive practice (in Vajrayana, that is).

 

Yidam explained: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Yidam

[寒月 Hanyue]

"So what I'm trying to say here is that in the West, the cognitive is quite well built up, but you really screw up subtle body. Sorry to say that. Really, really.

 

"I think after 18 or 19 years of teaching, I see it in my students – and sometimes in myself, also. And when I go to Asia, it is the reverse: the mind is really screwed up, the subtle body is quite healthy. That's why they're happy. But no cognitive planning.

 

"So the country is completely messed up. The more they're messed up, they're still happy. Because of happiness, there's no urge to fix thinking.

 

"So here, I think in the West, you put a lot of fear in the subtle body and desperation in the thinking and think well in order to fix the problem. So I think you went too much on the other side."

 

"So you have a lot of residue in the subtle body. And then you think it's you. All the leftover residue, you think, "it's me." That's when ego comes."

 

- Tsoknyi Rinpoche

 

What do you guys think of this? I am hearing a lot of thoughts like this coming from modern masters who try to teach Westerners in the same way as they do their Eastern students. This Lama Tsoknyi Rinpoche tried to teach in his normal way for about three years but he realised that the mind focus teachings were not working and in some cases making people more caught up in their patterns so he had to change his focus to integrating the emotions and subtle body. I think it shows the problems in just picking up a teaching from anywhere and expecting it to work for you.

 

Simply I agree. There is a difference, in where they are as in what they bring to the table, and in the way they learn and absorb. You have to teach the student in front of you.

 

Things are changing and the barriers are blurring, but they run deeper than most people think.

 

Best,

[Birch]

Balance between knowledge and being. One affects the other. Very '4th way' idea but I see sense in it.

[GrandmasterP]

Try as we might if we're not reincarnated into this life as a Chinese Taoist or ethnic Tibetan Buddhist then we'll not become one this time round.

[三江源]

Try as we might if we're not reincarnated into this life as a Chinese Taoist or ethnic Tibetan Buddhist then we'll not become one this time round.

 

no shit.

 

I wonder if some of us are more taoist or tibetan buddhist than others, having evolved the karma to bring our wisdom with us.

[GrandmasterP]

Cacatne ursus in silvis?

[三江源]

Cacatne ursus in silvis?

 

I dont speak southern baptist.. what are you saying?

[GrandmasterP]

Does a bear shit in the woods?

I was agreeing with your previous post Cat.

[Jetsun]

The most accessible 'eastern' literature for a western mindset IMO comes from borderlines where east and west blend

Academic Buddhisms for example via University of Hawaii where there is a large Japanese- American faculty.

The Phillipine Eskrima canon is superb because their dissolved-diaspora in the west feeds back into and informs the 'Ur' texts to produce something that retains the original yet is perhaps more accessible to a western reader.

You don't get any of that with Tibetan Buddhisms for some reason, westerners who take to it seem to make the futile attempt to 'go native' hence the mess.

 

I had not heard of that Canon I will look into it thanks.

 

I used to agree with you about Tibetan Buddhism but there are a number of modern younger Lama's who have either lived in the West or taught a lot of Western students over many years who are better able adapt the teachings better for who they are teaching, people like Tsoknyi Rinpoche who I already mentioned, Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche and Mingur Rinpoche seem to understand, or have been forced to understand the differences in their students backgrounds and adapt the teaching to get through to them.

[GrandmasterP]

Tsoknyi Rinpoche I'll give you and that guy who wrote the book about accompanying the Lama around his home areas in Tibet..

Panchen Lama seems to have the right idea too as far as demystifying is concerned.

I wonder sometimes if it isn't the fault of the western converts into Tibetan that has held it back with respect to accessibility these past forty years or so.

[C T]

I had not heard of that Canon I will look into it thanks.

 

I used to agree with you about Tibetan Buddhism but there are a number of modern younger Lama's who have either lived in the West or taught a lot of Western students over many years who are better able adapt the teachings better for who they are teaching, people like Tsoknyi Rinpoche who I already mentioned, Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche and Mingur Rinpoche seem to understand, or have been forced to understand the differences in their students backgrounds and adapt the teaching to get through to them.

 

Another contemporary Tibetan teacher whom i feel has a pretty good handle on the western mindset is Gyalwang Drukpa Rinpoche. He has presented a very helpful series of teachings on the 6 Paramitas for some of his western students which is available on YT.

 

(many thanks to Seth A. for bringing his works to our attention via a link he posted on TTB FB.)

 

Taster here ---

[Apech]

Good advice here ... don't be so Buddhist ...

 

[Jetsun]

"Most Tibetan people don't have this speed-problem. They have a dullness-problem, opposite problem. In most of the three-year-retreats they sleep. When they come out of three-years-retreat, expert on sleeping! So a lot of "trulkor" works for the clarity. In the West the clarity is quite ok. But if clarity is mixed up with emotions then there is a problem. Anything harsh doesn't work for the body. But a very long time of gentle nurturing opens up. Then the heart is very good. So I think there needs to be a little bit of a new design. But both methods are in Buddhism.

 

We have these standard problems, all sentient beings, wherever we go. But the culture problem, the environment, new problems like restless lung - some countries have, some don't. To feel bad about yourself all the time, like hollow - some countries produce it, some don't. But all have the five poisons; these are the standard for all sentient beings. But sometimes you have to take out this culture-created suffering before you practice authentic Buddhism.

 

Tibetans need more clarity, westerners need more emotional healing. I call it wounded love. In the west it is very high. The love-area is very hurt. Wrong expectations, wrong approach and in order to feel love, you have to have some external thing to love you.

 

I think it is very good to first bring your mind into the body, fully into the body so that your mind becomes emotional, feeling, and sensitive of the body. From there bring the clarity- practice Dzogchen. Otherwise Dzogchen becomes maybe a little bit spaced out. "

 

- Tsoknyi Rinpoche

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[skydog]

hmm interesting

[raimonio]

"Most Tibetan people don't have this speed-problem. They have a dullness-problem, opposite problem. In most of the three-year-retreats they sleep. When they come out of three-years-retreat, expert on sleeping! So a lot of "trulkor" works for the clarity. In the West the clarity is quite ok. But if clarity is mixed up with emotions then there is a problem. Anything harsh doesn't work for the body. But a very long time of gentle nurturing opens up. Then the heart is very good. So I think there needs to be a little bit of a new design. But both methods are in Buddhism.

 

We have these standard problems, all sentient beings, wherever we go. But the culture problem, the environment, new problems like restless lung - some countries have, some don't. To feel bad about yourself all the time, like hollow - some countries produce it, some don't. But all have the five poisons; these are the standard for all sentient beings. But sometimes you have to take out this culture-created suffering before you practice authentic Buddhism.

 

Tibetans need more clarity, westerners need more emotional healing. I call it wounded love. In the west it is very high. The love-area is very hurt. Wrong expectations, wrong approach and in order to feel love, you have to have some external thing to love you.

 

I think it is very good to first bring your mind into the body, fully into the body so that your mind becomes emotional, feeling, and sensitive of the body. From there bring the clarity- practice Dzogchen. Otherwise Dzogchen becomes maybe a little bit spaced out. "

 

- Tsoknyi Rinpoche

 

I've had similar thoughts and observations. We are a head-based society, so to balance things out we should not start from head-based practices. More grounding and emotional based stuff in the beginning would do a alot. I've witnessed many westeners make this error and they seem to be denying they have a problem with it, despite the fact that it is clear they are not making progress, infact in many cases they are taking steps backwards and coming up with new problems. Its like they are clinging to it because it is supposed to work.

 

That is why I personally love Daoism, it doesn't make me spaced, but centered and aligned with the Dao

[de_paradise]

I'd agree, but not with East-West since Chinese Korean Japanese are fast paced minded people, dissimilar to Tibetans or the relatively less industrialized countries. I have notice Africans have way better energy bodies, so they could be similar perhaps to the Tibetans. But the general idea that we should let go of our head based practices and embrace a more intuitive, heart approach would is something I would bet help many on this forum make better progress. It is hard for a head-based person to grasp quite what is meant by this heart "wounded love" type of stuff, so as a default they turn to what makes sense: some kind of logic based system of qigong or neigong that promises x result from y practise, level 1 to 5.

[Seth Ananda]

I totally agree with this head based western thing.

 

Our whole culture trains us to be disembodied. Half my clients are like floating heads, barely aware of any sensation or existence below the neck. They have 'reasons' and mental justifications for everything they feel, or believe, and for why such and such a practice wont work for them, and most of them are desperate to get to the 'real' stuff like non dual Awareness.

Which in a disembodied human only serves to increase the disassociation.

The process of coming into the body is often quite frightening and even painful for them, as they suddenly have to start learning how to 'feel' which entails having to deal with all the pain they have been avoiding while up in the clouds, so to speak...

Which in a disembodied human only serves to increase the disassociation.

 

This is the reason I have always loved the Tantric path and processes. There is so much emphasis on coming into and inhabiting the body, while on the way to the transcendent...

Edited November 23, 2012 by Seth Ananda

[Birch]

Not helped by internet forums.

Dispersing attention, none for the body.

[dwai]

There are inherent differences in the eastern and westen thought processes. Western thinking tends to be linear and extremely driven by binary logic. Eastern tends to be non-linear and driven by fuzzy logic (more than one state of possibilities).

 

Also in the west the role of science has atrophied general access of intuitive faculties to a large extent. In the east, the intuitive faculties are still relatively more accessible...albeit going fast with wetern culture & science growing their roots in the rapidly urbanizing east.

 

As an "easterner" who has had access to both worlds i have often discussed this phenomenon with others like myself. Especially stark is the binary vs fuzzy logic paradigm. I am of course speaking from a professional perspective. Given a certain problem or situation, some one with my socio-ciultural background will be loath to give a definitive yes/no or good/bad response....while a westerner would generally tend to reduce the problem into two outcomes and be quick to give such a response. That is the reason why, imho, westerners find it hard to grasp fuzzy, paradoxical esoterica, often getting frustrated while at the same time being mesmerized...

[Clarity]

It seems to me this is a very good example of what the Sufi's mean when they say that any teaching has to be adapted to the time, the place, and the people.

 

Personally, I see us as spiritual beings with a big mind, on a physical journey. So there needs to be a balance between body, mind, and spirit.

[raimonio]

So what would a heart-based practice look like? Or is it just getting into your body? I've always thought that becoming aware in your body is a grounding practice. Or would it be to become aware of your emotions? Funny thing is, Christianity is all about opening the heart