How religions use guilt as an excuse to justify controlling others

[skydog]

When I did a vipassana retreat six months or so ago. I had very little experience sitting crossed legged and meditating, I would always do it, walking, or laying on my bed or sitting on a chair. However I did have quite a lot of experience in very blissful, empty states of mind.

 

I didnt like sitting for 16 hours a day crossed legged as it felt like self torture.

 

These days I am doing stillness movement in semi lotus trying to get to full lotus. Its fairly fun.

 

Anyhows the vipassana teacher tried any possible method to make me stay, including ignoring me, telling me to wait until morning a few times, using very persuasive psychological tactics, being in India as a white/turkish person Im sure I was looked at as a piece of money, which I didnt actually have. But anyways the guy would tell me things like "It is because you have sinned so much, you have so much bad karma that is why you feel pain" I did tell him this was an insult but still I think that is a digusting type of brainwashing. That I can see other religious people using these kind of things for justification. Yeh it has some truth to it. But it is also poisonous in my opinion.

[Jetsun]

Manipulation is a subtle form of violence so nothing spiritual can come of it as the automatic response of a person to violence is to react with defence or rejection. The problem being that often we don't realise we have been manipulated until after it has occurred which just leaves the residue anger inside of us with nowhere to go, so those religious teachings which manipulate guilt are in my opinion some of the biggest evils or sins that exists on the planet as they are just powerful disguised forms of violence which abuse people in the name of what is holy and good.

[Marblehead]

Oh! Religions don't really do that, do they?

[skydog]

the tents realistically desire what be true be what true. Other blasphemous lies seek to cultivate the wrong ways one must cultivate glorious beautiful ways playing like children.

[GrandmasterP]

Religion stinks, all of it, however and wherever it is practiced it exists to exclude the uninitiated 'heretic'.

Some of the proprietary systems being peddled via thinly disguised advertisements elsewhere on this forum are nothing short of cultic religion dressed up in sheep's clothing.

Checking out their literature, as I have done with one such this morning; soon reveals their truly odious nature and intent.

[Flolfolil]

i feel like there is a definite difference between built up nervous tension and pain felt from your body being injured. anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is sadistic

[GrandmasterP]

Stress is a definite killer if it isn't addressed soon enough.

Next to back injuries, and those go with the territory; stress is the biggest cause of time off work in the public sector here in the UK.

Edited November 21, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[三江源]

Oh! Religions don't really do that, do they?

 

Naw. First I've heard of it.

[MERCELESS ONE]

i hate religion from the depths of my soul! it in itself will be mans distruction. it breeds ig-nor-ance, greed, chaos, distruction, pestilance, and evil of all manor and sort. ive encountered so many twisted souls that will have, and will have to repeat this life again because of the perversions religion teach. its a distortion of the true way of being based on belief and not knowledge, wisdon, and understanding. " mercilessly i destroy those who challenge me" ive gotten into so many verbal battles with religious people from preachers to common folk, and none could hang. and the only reason is i study! most religious people dont even know about their own religion! hell if they studied they would be like me and leave it alone. almost 90% of people i know who studied their religion and religious books with the aptitude of a scholar stopped following them. because they see the lies and deception. those who stay are either in it for making money or sold their souls for the lie! plain and simple. you either believe the lie or leave it and find another way. but too many people do the latter! ill throw you a bone! from a child i was tought by the religious institutions adam and eve were the first two people. after the had cain and able, cain killed able and cain was sent to the land of nod to find a wife!? look it up for yourself then ask your self whats contradictory here. and thats not the first one there are thousands of them. i guess all in all i refuse to entrust my soul to anyone who knows less about the spirit than i do.

[thetaoiseasy]

Religion is often necessary. It's psychological help for many -- I would never refuse or deny help to anyone in need. People who are really desperate often need a savior. Sometimes, if people become serious enough with their religion, they can take the external projection and make it internal. That's like making someone sick before making them better. But at least they get better -- some of the time. If you can take responsibility of your growth and karma, then you can just enjoy religions as part of culture and appreciate it as a service. But you are never taken in by it. So no need to hate on religion, but treat it as a stepping stone and necessary evil in this society, until the day people begin to realize they must be their own God. As for people who use spirituality and religion to chain and deceive other people? They have done the unspeakable and will have their pay in due time. Don't worry about them.

Edited November 21, 2012 by thetaoiseasy

[Aaron]

Religions are used to oppress people and subvert them to the moral status quo. They use this by playing on people's fear and are so successful in institutionalizing their beliefs because they ingrain these misconceptions into their adherents from childhood. Whether it is Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, or Christianity, the fact is, the practitioners of these beliefs rarely had a chance from the start, rather they were indoctrinated from an early age into the "truth".

 

Sin is not real, it's subjective. Karma is not real, it's subjective. The "truth" is not real, it's subjective. If you need to make the subjective seem objective, then it's important to reinforce these ideas when one is malleable and defenseless to any opposition. Any child of a religious family who denies the existence of God (or Buddha) is not going to be told that it's alright to question the existence of God (or Buddha), more likely than not, they'll be punished and told that it's a mortal sin to question these things.

 

Freedom of speech and expression isn't reserved for children sadly.

 

Aaron

Edited November 21, 2012 by Aaron

[GrandmasterP]

Religion is often necessary. It's psychological help for many -- I would never refuse or deny help to anyone in need. People who are really desperate often need a savior. Sometimes, if people become serious enough with their religion, they can take the external projection and make it internal. That's like making someone sick before making them better. But at least they get better -- some of the time. If you can take responsibility of your growth and karma, then you can just enjoy religions as part of culture and appreciate it as a service. But you are never taken in by it. So no need to hate on religion, but treat it as a stepping stone and necessary evil in this society, until the day people begin to realize they must be their own God. As for people who use spirituality and religion to chain and deceive other people? They have done the unspeakable and will have their pay in due time. Don't worry about them.

................

I kinda agree with you in one sense, thinking about an old lady we know; widow with no kids and only her cat for company most of the time who draws great solace and comfort from being involved with her church and she has something to talk about when we see her all the church politics and intrigues and who in the choir does not like the vicar and so on. Keeps her going I reckon.

But say the church wasn't there then she'd as likely belong to some other club or social group and get the same sort of buzz from that.

These professional religionistas who get their wages from peddling pap to punters really are amongst the lowest of the low IMO.

Edited November 21, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[FieryWind]

Your right that religions are used in many negative ways due to abuse, on the other hand religion can be a useful means to arrive at the realization of our place in nature, the cosmos.

 

A knife can be used to create more suffering or to alleviate suffering, it all depends on the actions of the person utilizing it, the same goes with religion, religion has a purpose to alleviate suffering, unfortunately people are backwards and use it to create more!

[GrandmasterP]

I can see that.

Saw a bumper sticker in the USA once...

 

If they outlaw guns only outlaws will own guns.

 

At least when it's out in the open we can keep an eye on religion apart from what some of them get up to behind closed doors.

[skydog]

Things religious people have justified to me and told me is ok

 

1) Hitting children

2) Hitting animals

3) Trying to scam people out of money

4) Attacking other peoples beliefs and ways of life

5) do I need to go on..

[FieryWind]

There are many non-religious people who think the same... what does this mean? It means that the problem lies in the psychological habitat of man...

[Marblehead]

It means that the problem lies in the psychological habitat of man...

But it is very hard for most to understand and grasp the depthness of this truth.

 

But I still don't like the institution of religion.

[adept]

Religion stinks, all of it

 

But I thought you posted somewhere before that you were a PL Buddhist ?

[GrandmasterP]

No I'm not but I do do nembutsu, been chanting for a big lottery win for years.

I'm superstitious NOT religious.

:-)

[thelerner]

Things religious people have justified to me and told me is ok

 

1) Hitting children

2) Hitting animals

3) Trying to scam people out of money

4) Attacking other peoples beliefs and ways of life

5) do I need to go on..

Too often we compare the best of 'our' belief against the worst or our version of the worst of there belief. Too often we're comparing it against a philosophy the majority of that 'system' believes in. In other words we're setting up straw dogs. Frankly I don't think a religious person is necessarily any better or worse then an agnostic or atheist. IMO its not the religion its the man himself and his (or her) place of worship to blame for the scalawags who do wrong and use religion to justify it.

 

Personally, I don't see the laundry list of crimes going on in my place of worship. And probably they're discouraged at most. If they're not I'd shop around for a better church, temple or mosque.

 

Why join a religious organization? One- active community of good people (if its done right). Two, I enjoy dharma speeches and my rabbi's sermons, often they're looking the same problems through a different lens and angle. All religions have a long history of wisdom and mysticism, dig in (the right way) and you'll find gems to live by. Three, Tolerance, this may not be universal but my kids go to mosques and various churches as part of their religious learning. Four, active charity work. Five, the brotherhood had a pretty good pizza party last Bears game. There are probably others.

[skydog]

Of course there are two sides to every story, and yeh I do not wish to see someone sad particuarly, but there is truth in my OP, more of an expression of realised past manipulation and showing others if they dont see the same thing being done to themselves.

[Flolfolil]

SO SOOOOOO tired of the "religion is a major cause of war" crap. The people that spout it are the same ones that start with the "everything has a scientific explanation and religion is bullshit" Well what about how fear of nuclear weapons brings people to create more nuclear weapons? Sounds like a science problem to me. Nothing is the problem but people themselves, and to blame it on any one thing is stupid because if it wasn't that thing it would just be another thing.

[GrandmasterP]

Maybe not so much world wars, more like local skirmishes these days but religion does tend to divide people then again so does affiliation to a particular team in say soccer.

Rather more people are killed and injured in religion engendered skirmishes though.

It's a felt need is religion, were it not so there wouldn't be so much of it about. I can't think of anywhere except perhaps North Korea where there isn't a wide choice of religions on offer and even in NK they seem to worship their leader after a fashion.

[Marblehead]

Nothing is the problem but people themselves, ...

Exactly. It is people who create all the power-seeking institutions and it is people who manage these institutions.

[adept]

No I'm not but I do do nembutsu, been chanting for a big lottery win for years.

I'm superstitious NOT religious.

:-)

 

The nembutsu is the heart of Pure Land Buddhism. The reason for it is for birth in the Pure Land of Amida, where you end the cycle of birth and death once and for all. It is a holy practice and shouldn't be taken lightly. I've never heard of someone reciting the nembutsu for material gain. Maybe you're confusing it with the chanting in the Nichiren schools.