Epistemology, ethics, logic and metaphysics

[Wayfarer64]

I have found myself wondering just what knowledge we humans are ready to grasp.

 

The epistemological nature of our questing needs to be addressed at some point to be sure we are not just fooling ourselves into believing what we want to believe.

 

Logic is a very useful tool. The study of what the nature of our knowledge is and where it may lead us is an important part of any philosophical searching. Ethics must always play a part in making choices, which is the basis for the Yi Jing's advice...

These other three branches of philosophy sometimes get short-shrift as we latch onto the metaphysical wonders that interest our restless minds...

 

Taoism has a long history of scientific inquiry that is a basic part of the philosophy. It should not be discarded for the mystical questing that thrills us so.

 

It has always been the joys offered in everyday life and being a part of the here and now that Taoism illuminated for me with the deepest sense of joy...

 

I just hope that exploration does not cover for escapism when we strive to transcend the reality surrounding us... Delving into that reality is the way of the Tao, esoteric levels of existance encluded ! But having ones feet on the ground is always a good starting point for any journey.

Edited December 30, 2006 by Wayfarer64

[hagar]

The philosopher in me couldn't help but notice your post =)

 

But was there a question in there somewhere, or was it meant as a kind of manifest?

 

In my view, the separation you define btw the pragmatic and scientifically minded aspect of Taoism and the "mystical" is a discerment at certain levels of practice.

 

Within the daoist cosmology there are so many different branches and approaches, not to speak of practices and sects that there is no real "core" of philosophical thought to be found in the sources or among the actual practicing sects or monasteries. So in reality, the distinction we in the west set up as a way to try to comprehend Taoist thought is really an artificial one. But that does not mean that there is a definite pure philosophical thread running through the early pre-Taoist sources like the Chuang Tzu and the Lao Tzu. But hand in hand with the philosophical arguments in, say Chuang Tzu, there are poetics, mysticism and folklore bound into one another. Not to speak of how shamanism, spirit whorship, and the traditions of the different parts of Asia have influenced Taoist thought and practce over millennia. Its one big mess actually.

 

BUT, I find the separation interesting anyway. Taoist philosophy has real content that can be worked through intelectually. But the rub is that to really grasp the subtleties of the more profound concepts, true mystical and medative experience is a prerequisite.

 

In my own experience, I have found that there really is no "mystical" and "practical" side. These concepts are only part of my own limited understanding, and I found that if I was scientifically minded enough, the separation would prove irrelevant. I saw that my master actually was a scientist in everything he did or said. He never said or did anything he hadn't empirically experienced. And any thought, or mystical dimension of a statement was not for him real until he had experience of its reference in his practice. I have heard him say some incredible things, that sounded mystical and incredible. But then he would say: Dont belive me, experience it yourself. If you can't, continue not beliving in me.

Bottom line in this too long post is: Mystical and practical are words not related to the actual experience of the shifting of energy. If you look at everything in this way, philosophy and mystical inshight or experience really just become manifestations of the one energy.

 

h

[QiDr]

 

Taoism has a long history of scientific inquiry that is a basic part of the philosophy. It should not be discarded for the mystical questing that thrills us so.

 

 

Philosophical Taoism is indeed based in scientific inquiry, however one cannot confuse Taoist science with Cartesian science, it is not the same thing. Cartesian science is based on the concept of dissective discovery. It seeks to whittle reality down to it's core constituents and then use randomized controlled trials to determine the nature of those constiuents. The underlying premise is that the parts have greater mechanistic value than the whole.

Taoism is based on the holistic nature of man and the universe. The the core conceptual reality is unnamable and unknowable, this is not mysticism (Philosophical Taoism is a form of dialectical materialism), it is simply that the whole of the universe is beyond the mind of man. The quest for knowledge is indeed thrilling but that quest, in Philosophical Taoism, is not mysticism.

If one is interested in mysticism look into Religious Taoism, it's chock full of it.

[Wayfarer64]

Thanks Hagar & QiDr-

 

My question was how much we are ready to grasp...

 

So much of our reality is subjective ... For instance the red of a cloth is very different in different lights, and different in the perceptions of individuals -to say nothing of spieces who's eyes are very different from ours, or the color blind who may see no red whatsoever...Which is to say- what we take as red -or anything else you may choose as an example- may seem very different to other's way of seeing.

 

I am also concerned with some indications of "jumping the gun" in some experimentation done by our fellow bums, a willingness to try anything that sounds interesting. There are many reports of having done injury to ourselves over the years, etc...

 

QiDr. - I (of course) agree that Taoism has a holistic approach to the questions we ask - its realization may even be thought of as the oneness that our universe manifests even amid all of the complexities we may notice as well... That the un-namable is retained as unknowable is part of what I am addressing here- we are not omnipitant beings. We quest for answers that are inherently beyond our scope.

 

This is not to be pitied! We may seek and find our way as we go, even create our way as we go, step by step we expand our minds.

 

I do however still believe that the Yi Jing does contain the core of Taoist thought and practice. It may be that after another 40 years I shall change my views on these things - but for now I find that even the seperations offered in our many approaches to Taoism can be brought together within the Yi Jing's pages...Everything in its' own time and place.-

 

So I again offer many Thanks for the entries -Even with my questioning the validity of some techniques, all aspects of our envolvement are a boon to each-other's reality.

[xenolith]

My question was how much we are ready to grasp...

 

I'm very positively impressed with both the concern for others inherent in the question and the understanding of the duality of the Tao with respect to the "simple" and the "complex" expressed in the replies provided.

 

As in all things, the complex may only be mastered by means of mastery of the simple. This doesn't mean that one cannot find deep "simple" meaning in a dew drop on the petal of a daisy, but it does mean that one will not be able to find the deep "complex" meaning of a dew drop on the petal of a daisy until one has found the former. The topic in general has been addressed by Mantak Chia...

 

Excerpted (and abbreviated) from Chapter Ten: The Seven Spiritual Stages of Cultivating Sexual Energy (pgs. 163-179)

of Taosit Secrets of Love: Cultivating Male Sexual Energy

 

The Seven Spiritual Stages of Taoist Sexual Energy Cultivation:

 

1. Physical Control of Seed Loss

 

2. Physical and Mental Control of Sexual Orgasm

 

3. Mind Control of Sexual Desire and Orgasm

 

4. Exchange Energy Without Having Sexual Intercourse

 

5. Beyond Sex

 

6. Transforming Spiritual Energies Beyond the Mind/Body

 

7. Union of Man and Tao

 

"I don't know what stage you will pursue. I only offer some guidelines. Some men may not be ready for many more lifetimes to change stages. After you read this book you may abandon the Seminal Kung Fu practice altogether and go on happily ejaculating like Niagra Falls.

 

But if you want to get involved in cultivating your sexual energy you will spontaneously evolve and move toward higher spiritual levels. Your goal will be realized most quickly if you apply yourself with single-minded devotion to your spiritual evolution. Eventually it will become effortless as you stop struggling against your nature, which is the same in essence as the Tao. Your awareness of the universal subtle energies will grow naturally and you will move up in stages by yourself, not according to any religion or philosophy, but from an inner guidance."

 

Once the level of spiritual evolution that comes from inner guidance has been mastered, every moment possesses both the seed for and the flower of self realization. In this way, both the "simple" and the "complex" are joined in one's practice of spiritual evolution and self realization. And the distinction between them dissolves. As does that of one's spiritual evolution and their self realization. This is Chia's #7, Union of Man and Tao.

 

Chia concludes his comments on this subject (pg. 179) with a reminder of the paradox of progress toward the Tao.

 

"The great Chinese physician Sun S'su-mo, (581-682 A.D.) famous for inventing the small pox inoculation and who lived to be 101 years, astutely noted the problem of progress in his Recipe for Making Priceless Gold:

 

"In youth, man does not understand the Tao.

At middle age he hears about the Tao but does not practice what he hears.

When he is old he sees the truth of the Tao, but is too weak to act on it.""

 

Waste not time nor health bums! Practice as if all were coming, because all is coming. And contemplate the dew drops on the daisies. And smile as their meanings evolve as you do !

 

Love.

 

xeno

Edited January 6, 2007 by xenolith

[Spectrum]

"I just hope that exploration does not cover for escapism when we strive to transcend the reality surrounding us.."

 

 

Break out bro, break through to the Truth, again and again! Wonderfully inspired reflections.