...

[konchog uma]

In conjunction with correct setting, the work of Dr. Timothy Leary is proof of this concept.

 

 

A lot has been done with the 8 Circuit theory that has nothing to do with any sort of chemical influence at all by Dr. Leary, Dr. Robert Anton Wilson, and Antero Alli. While the original work of Dr. Leary may have been initially inspired by his work with LSD, there is a significant misconception due to propaganda spread by the government at the apex of Dr. Leary's work to discredit him, that leads to a high degree of misunderstanding of his work.

 

thanks for pointing that out. I meant to say that that research has been used to justify dangerous "exploration" and drug use, not that it was born out of it (which it was incidentally but that wasnt my point) or that that is all its good for (its great theory, really applicable to experience in all kinds of mindsets including a sober one)

 

on the whole i tend to find that leary and mckenna paint a onesided (drugs) picture of psychonautics, and delve into dangerous territory setting a bad example the whole way. Those substances arent really recreational, theres a lot more than set and setting to take into account if you are going to ingest a hallucinogen or an entheogen.

 

so i appreciate your point of view, and i love Dr Wilson, i've read all his books. I also really love a lot of the original harvard lsd research crowd (ralph metzner and john c lilly are awesome and of course there is ram das, whose smile speaks for itself)

so to clarify i didnt mean to knock the theory itself, just the lifestyle of trying to use substances to open up those gates instead of putting the work in and doing it the natural way

[konchog uma]

I have seen firsthand people who have gone very productive, and also very destructive directions with this. I would wholeheartedly agree that there is a very real element of danger to the type of exploration you are talking about. In some ways I would liken it to Mantak Chia's works. You hear about some people getting good things out of them, but also about a lot of people hurting themselves with them. My main reason for responding as I did is that I have not seen a lot of discussion on here about the Eight Circuit model, and it has been a very useful map for me, one that changed how I look at a lot of aspects of life. I also have a lot of appreciation for what Dr. Leary was trying to do with S.M.I(2).L.E. He often gets written off as a drug obsessed hippie, but his work was very scientific, and he aspired to some pretty incredible things for humanity.

 

i vacillate between respect for leary and resentment. He really contributed to the government clamping down on lsd in his own way. He made a lot of noise, and i think he thought he was a lot more enlightened than he really was, and that his followers tend to think that too. That being said, i love smi2le too (which is, for everyone who isnt familiar with it, a formula for human evolution, which states that three biological imperative drive the human race. they are Space Migration, Increased Intelligence, and Life Extension SMIILE)

 

It is true they downplayed some of the risks of hallucinogens, but this was also at a time that the government was spreading propaganda like "reefer madness", trying to get people to believe that if they smoked pot they might go crazy and murder their friends. There was a lot of nonsensical misinformation coming out of the government giving them an excuse to, without rational analysis of the situation, place wholesale bans on substances and classify them in ways that were not really accurate to their effects. It is natural to some degree, when one hears someone spouting information that is grossly inaccurate in one direction, for a person to engage in a spin in the opposite direction. We see this all the time in politics, usually leading to the break down of rational discussion.

 

a good point, i have to agree w you

 

The Cosmic Trigger books, Prometheus Rising, and Quantum Psychology were very influential books for me. I have really enjoyed most of his other writing as well. It's nice to see another R.A.W. fan here. I only have peripheral knowledge of Lilly's work, although it seems interesting. I have almost no knowledge of Metzger outside of a familiarity with his name in this context.

 

I totally agree that no one is likely to drop acid and become enlightened, but there are more than a few writers and teachers that I have benefitted from whose world view was shifted by exposure to things like that early in life. In almost every case, once their eyes had been opened to the possibility of experiencing the world in such a radically different way, they moved away from the drugs and usually seemed to gravitate to ways of invoking altered states of perception naturally. I think that initial shift in perspective can be important for some people to spark the interest and motivate them on their path.

 

as to RAW, yes me too, very influential, one of my all time favorite geniuses... prometheus rising, illuminatus, sex and drugs (and magick), quantum psychology, new inquisition, and all of his works that i have read (which may not actually be all of them but it seems like i have read 15 or 20 of his books... he has written plays and other things too, for playboy and other publications that i haven't read) anyway all his works have been terribly influential to my developing mind. I agree with you about the benefits of LSD, and being one of those who dove headfirst into the world of drugs, psychedelics, mind expansion, entheogens, neo-shamanism, and the like, only to find out that those plants don't really like tourists, and ultimately to be guided away from them (by them) into the realm of natural mind expansion via yoga and meditation and conscious living, i must say that i owe much to lysergic, lysergol, and all the various ergoline and tryptamine (and their relatives and friends) plant help that is there for us. So on one hand, i respect the need to dabble and experiment, and on the other, my point of view comes out of no small amount of experience with said subject.

 

In the end, its just a point of view, and i hope nobody takes it too seriously, unless they need to or it does them good to. Theres two sides to every story but i still believe ardently that if a person isn't forming a relationship with those plants or compounds based on sacredness they are risking too much to roll dice with. Thats pretty much it in a nutshell.

[manitou]

Imo taking peyote or Iboga is not like meditation or qigong at all. It offers a peak experience or glimpse or healing etc. What you can learn in one night can equate to years of normal practice, of course thats one usage no need to go crazy.

 

Late at night I take a couple tokes before reading a metaphysical book. It turns something one dimensional into something multi-dimensional and many more angles are seen.

[skydog]

Late at night I take a couple tokes before reading a metaphysical book. It turns something one dimensional into something multi-dimensional and many more angles are seen.

 

Ok fair enough, I may be wrong again but to me weed is not comparable to peyote or iboga. I accept people using weed, fair enough whatever works, all Im saying is that I think peyote is powerful but using it everyday/everyweek could be anti effective if that word makes any sense

 

peace

[konchog uma]

I absolutely get where you are coming from, and that makes a lot of sense.

 

If you ever get the chance to read Pihkal: A Chemical Love Story by Alexander Shulgin and Ann Shulgin I think you would really enjoy it. There is a lot in there that you will be able to relate to and find a lot of humor in. I definitely understand where you are coming from, and it is certain that a healthy dose of respect is essential if one is going to engage that path. As you say, there are no tourists.

 

shulgin is amazing, maybe i will pick that up, thanks for the recommendation!

[RiverSnake]

Anyone read this book by Julian Vayne, looks interesting: http://www.amazon.com/Pharmakon-Drugs-Imagination-Julian-Vayne/dp/1869928946/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369573837&sr=1-4&keywords=Pharmakon

 

I found this interview fascinating: http://deeper-down-the-rabbit-hole.com/2011/07/episode-16-guest-julian-vayne-chemignosis-deconstruction/

 

My 2 cents, Peacw

[h.uriahr]

I've done 2cb in the past, via nasal route and it was always a mind elevating experience. My ATF.

 

Shrooms are ok but nothing like 2cb IME.

 

I've tried DMT once but held the flame too close and inhaled a massive cloud of hot smoke. Haven't tried it since. If I have the time I may.

[SEEKER OF TRUTH]

Speaking from personal experience, everything that happens "realizations" under the influence of mind altering substance is false, in regards to spiritual development. I used to deny that, but it was only because I couldn't quiet my mind enough to reach a state of heightened awareness. Learn to quiet your mind, it's free, non addicting and you can't go to jail for it.

[RiverSnake]

Speaking from personal experience, everything that happens "realizations" under the influence of mind altering substance is false, in regards to spiritual development.

IME, wide sweeping generalizations that pigeon-hole the whole of existence are without a doubt false.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited May 27, 2013 by OldGreen

[SEEKER OF TRUTH]

so i guess the people i have seen trip and then suddenly come out of depression were just living in illusion and should go back to being depressed. Whatever. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it invalid.

There is no way to convince anyone, until they have experienced it themselves. Like I said, personal experience brought me to the realization that mind altering substance was used to escape reality, not experience it, all of it, good, bad, sad etc.. Once I learned to just feel it, all of it, and know that it wasn't gong to eat me, then I could sit back and enjoy the show. There is a lot more to it that just that, but if you but move in the direction of trying to understand what I'm saying, then more will be revealed to you. Part of what you experience now has to do with your age and only time can change that, unless you are wise enough to learn from other peoples mistakes.

[SEEKER OF TRUTH]

IME, wide sweeping generalizations that pigeon-hole the whole of existence are without a doubt false.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

You could be right, I guess time will tell.

[silent thunder]

My life is my practice.

Everything is permissible, except the stuff that's not...

Sometimes I only know what's not, when I'm doing it.

 

Balance is a mantra I use live daily and break often, when required.

Edited May 27, 2013 by silent thunder

[Rara]

If you're gonna be doing any kind of hallucinogenics i'd recommend you find some one whom has experience and knows how to handle the substances and can act as a guide through the experience....a professional shaman....etc. Make sure to do your research though, plenty of fakes out there.

 

In regards to using drugs in combination with your practice.....not sure if that's a good or bad thing, i have no experience....though i know some people say taking hallucinogenics has "opened" them up in certain ways.

 

However, one's goal should be to practice cultivation to the point where you no longer need to use drugs to be "High". Drugs can be a serious crutch for those who rather just pop a pill than put any effort into there self-cultivation.

 

Also, my understanding is that you should never take any kind of drugs when your in a negative state (fear, anger...etc)....it can amplify tremendously and cause a "bad trip".

 

Most of what i am saying comes from hearing of other's experiences...so take it with a grain of salt.

 

-My 2 cent, Peace

 

Cool response. I like my pot a bit too much, and I also meditate (only when sober) I personally see no problem...but people are always encouraging me to stop with the pot and the meditation should take over. But surely this is down to the individual...I mean, I'm not a big fan of alcohol...but I do like to let my hair down in some shape or form! (my hair has a life of its own...it can be any shape or form on any given day)

 

I do thank pot and certain music like Marilyn Manson (1996-2000) and Tool for taking me away from conformism. Would I quit those records? Nope...they were key to my development...so I think the use of drugs should be treated the same way until you do just fed fed up with it...

 

As for the negative states of mind thing though, yes, I vouch for this. I had bad anxiety last week and not even a smoke could calm me down nor help me sleep. Even when I did sleep, it was a rough short one. When there is no escape, you have to face the problem at hand...and for me, I learnt that meditation is the solution. Only then can I accept what's happening there and then...the pot just makes me feel high WHILST I'm panicking. A bit like pouring petrol on a fire...

[Rara]

You aren't the first person to tell me i am too young to understand, please see my signature. Among others to tell me this are my parents, that thought my gayness and all my personal interests were passing phases. Ten years later, here i am, nothing but a more calm version of the exact same person i was way back then. Age doesn't equal level of experience

 

Wisdom comes from experience. The amount of naive and ignorant oldies I've come across!

[timelessness]

Loved doing mushrooms. Cant get hold of em these days. Wish I could get a good quality ones.

[hydrogen]

According to CTM, every edible is either medicine or poison depending on the dosage, frequency of consumption, and the condition of the patience.

 

I've been struggling with my pot usage for a while Not physically, mainly morally and spiritually. My family is totally against any drug usage. I also worried about my kids. How do I teach my kids about drugs? Almost every spiritual "guru" says that you can't get enlightened if you do drugs.

 

I think weed is just another crutch on my journey. I apply my tool whichever way I feel right. I don't care too much about sentences like "nobody can't find the truth under influence of drug". Well, why can't I be the first? Buddha didn't get enlighted by following other's step.

 

Another thing I do worry is what if I become dependent on weed?

 

The other day, I couldn't get my daily morning coffee. My body reacted far worse.

 

"My miracle is that when I'm hungry, I eat, and when I am tired, I sleep." -- Bankei

 

Disclaimer: I smoke about one gram of weed ($10 Candian dollars) a week.

Edited May 27, 2013 by hydrogen

[manitou]

According to CTM, every edible is either medicine or poison depending on the dosage, frequency of consumption, and the condition of the patience.

 

I've been struggling with my pot usage for a while Not physically, mainly morally and spiritually. My family is totally against any drug usage. I also worried about my kids. How do I teach my kids about drugs? Almost every spiritual "guru" says that you can't get enlightened if you do drugs.

 

I think weed is just another crutch on my journey. I apply my tool whichever way I feel right. I don't care too much about sentences like "nobody can't find the truth under influence of drug". Well, why can't I be the first? Buddha didn't get enlighted by following other's step.

 

Another thing I do worry is what if I become dependent on weed?

 

The other day, I couldn't get my daily morning coffee. My body reacted far worse.

 

"My miracle is that when I'm hungry, I eat, and when I am tired, I sleep." -- Bankei

 

 

Amen to all that. I have come to see weed usage as an attachment that I must lose. Just as soon as these last two plants flower and produce.......

[Rara]

Amen to all that. I have come to see weed usage as an attachment that I must lose. Just as soon as these last two plants flower and produce.......

 

Yep. That's what we're all planning...but every time we just so happen to stumble across some more. Woopsy! haha

[manitou]

Well then maybe our attachment isn't the weed at all, it's the stumbling...

[oildrops]

phases ha^zes _crazesmazes

[silent thunder]

My rules for hallucinogens.

Environment is the main trigger, people and surroundings. Natural outdoor setting is almost always my prerequisite.

Anything heavy or deep emotionally that happens the day of a trip, will likely be processed or come up in depth during the trip. Expect it, or delay the trip for another time.

Be around people you genuinely love.

 

The best guide is someone who's done it, that you have a strong heart connection to.

Trust in a trip is like mana in a video game, pure magic juice.

[i am]

I just sort of naturally view everything through the lense of dependancy. I have a very non-addictive personality. Either dispite that or because of it, I'm pretty much ok with anything I ingest, so long as I don't have a dependancy on it.

 

If, when I come home from work and am tired, I feel that I need a beer to unwind...no beer. If I need to get high to relax at night...time to stop the weed.

 

When things are a tool, I'm pretty ok with them. When they're a habit, or crutch, not so much.

 

I do realize that if I ever become "very serious" about my practice, I'll need to do away with all that stuff.

 

Beer would be hard for me socially. It's just something every one of my friends do. Not impossible, just difficult and awkward for a while. Weed would be harder, as I like it socially and solo. I've stared keeping it to weekends, just to make sure it's not happening all the time. While I have great moments of clarity while I'm high, if I'm doing it more than a few times every couple weeks, I can tell my mind is cloudier when I'm not high. Not really ok with me.

Edited May 28, 2013 by i am

[SEEKER OF TRUTH]

I was going to leave this alone, but I feel like it's a disservice to my fellows if I do. Anything that takes you away from the true essence of being (your natural state) is farther away from OK, then we are from the Sun. Do what you will, but don't try to convince others that it's right, good or even acceptable. There may be young kids reading this. If you are truely honest with yourself, then you know the truth, so why even bother trying to convince yourselves otherwise. If you are not here for some sort of spiritual growth or understanding, then why are you here? If you weren't born with a pill or a shroom in your hand, then you don't need it to experience Tao/life and it can do nothing, but divert you from the path. Being in denial is already evidence of this.

[skydog]

Sometimes it is helpful and empowering to be able to completely wipe ones slate clean.

 

Psychadelics have this power to destroy tons of beliefs in one session...leading to a new person.

 

Personally I am not one for addiction, but peyote and or iboga appeal to me if they are used for valid devoted reasons, I mean some native american tribes literally worshipped peyote as a god.

 

I feel that many of us here are very caught up in our theories on the way the world works etc etc...a totally opposite path may seem very crazy but could also be perfect, wiping the slate clean with a psychdelic could be very powerful

Edited June 3, 2013 by skydog

[konchog uma]

I think its more accurate to say that first nations tribes that used peyote recognized it as a living spirit or an entheogen than to say that they worshiped it as a god. Its purely semantic but in the spirit of not imposing Christian framework onto something totally different I just wanted to bring up that I have been taught differently. If you have a reference for the idea of god worship, by all means post it. I'm not an expert in ethnobotany or native peoples. I'm actually not an expert in anything (but have eaten mescaline cactus w shamans)