Entering the Void

[Jeff]

 

Because dzogchen is a stageless teaching, my view of the subtle dimension of light is that one naturally sees the subtle aspect (not that it is "light") in everyday ordinary situations because the light itself is undifferentiated. Otherwise, subtle, in terms of non-ordinary states, would not be so subtle— or so useful, non?

 

I posted earlier, and yes, the thread has very much veered from its original point.

 

I know Dzogchen is a very culturally grounded teaching and xenophobic in its own characteristically voluptuous guru/transmission tradition, but the transmission is to give the student a taste of the real aspect, so the light is thenceforth recognizable and practice is stronger, surer and quicker and the student is able to then exercise the Dharma eye in actual situations (of course always depends on the student).

 

I hope no one would mind if I would like to make the point that the light is naturally undifferentiated from the temporal manifestation and that references to it are only in terms of one's adapting to the real aspect of any given situation~ hence, the subtlety of the light. Otherwise, what would be the point of seeing "light" with one's physical eyes? What wouldn't be light?!!

 

ed note: add the word "it" in the second sentence

 

Hi deci belle,

 

I think the following quote posted by Ish in another thread (hope Ish doesn't mind) may answer your question about if the "light" is just as in normal temporal manifestation in the Dzogchen tradition...

 

 

"A practitioner who manifests this realization cannot really be said to have `died', at all, in the ordinary sense of the word because he or she still remains spontaneously active as a principle of being in a Body of Light. The spontaneous activity of such an individual will be directed for the benefit of others, and he or she is actually visible to someone in a physical body who has sufficient clarity.

 

But a practitioner who perfects and completes the fourth level of the Thodgal visions does not manifest death at all, but while still living gradually becomes invisible to those who have normal karmic vision. This level of realization is called the `Great Transfer', and this is the realization that Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra manifested. Essentially, the realizations of the Great Transfer and the Body of Light are one and the same; the only difference is that those who attain the Great Transfer do not have to go through death in the clinical sense in order to move from manifestation in the material plane to manifestation in the plane of the essence of elements. These two modes of realization are particular to the practice of Dzogchen"

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. The Crystal and the Way of Light: Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen (p. 162). Kindle Edition.

 

[Jeff]

I'm just wondering if this has any correlation with the void united with compassion and the void without, and hatching the positive immortal fetus and hatching the negative immortal fetus.

 

As you describe the void (alone) is the state of nothingness. One of the best description of this state is Jed McKenna's first book. Compassion is also sometimes called "pure light". Void with compassion (or light) is more "oneness". The immortal fetus is also sometimes called the body of light.

 

[deci belle]

OK!

[exorcist_1699]

I wonder why people talk about light , instead of qi, after having experienced some status of deep Void . The appearance of light is more subjective and unreliable, especially for those who start their way from the very beginning through visualization.

 

A persistent No-Mind ( or deep Void, for they are just two faces of the same coin ) inevitably gives rise to the embryonic way of breathing ; it is so unprecedented and uncomfortable that , compared to light, warmth, light body .....X@&*^$, unlikely be anything we create or imagine. Besides, the arise of pre-heavenly qi , in fact, blows life into the spiritual form we just create from the deep Void,making it really everlasting, independently alive outside our body.

Edited November 29, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[deci belle]

I wonder why people talk about light , instead of qi, after having experienced some status of deep Void . The appearance of light is more subjective and unreliable, especially for those who start their way from the very beginning through visualization.

 

A persistent No-Mind ( or deep Void, for they are just two faces of the same coin ) inevitably gives rise to the embryonic way of breathing ; it is so unprecedented and uncomfortable that , compared to light, warmth, light body .....X@&*^$, unlikely be anything we create or imagine. Besides, the arise of pre-heavenly qi , in fact, blows life into the spiritual form we just create from the deep Void,making it really everlasting, independently alive outside our body.

 

Cultural differences is my guess, and as you infer, light is more of an external (separate) orientation and chi doesn't imply distance, in terms of the real body, being whole.

 

Just deciphering terms being used to describe the quality of potential, relative to its context is so frustrating— and not just due to cultural and developmental differences. Some are finding states to fit the names and some are finding names to fit the situations.

 

Hanging out in blissful meditation states is one thing and endeavoring to rectify names to perceived function, yet another— but I would like to take this to where exorcist may have left off …and that is beyond states of recognition inasmuch as enlightening being entails (once this is alive outside our bodies), a real working relationship with pre-heavenly chi.

 

I would like to make the suggestion that once this is the basis of practice, one is no longer working with the created, and hence, no longer going along with creation in terms of adapting to karmic evolution— which to me would be the working definition of enlightening being itself, whereby the essence of the void (not a meditation, mind, no-mind or no-self state) is itself the means of functioning in the world, perceiving reality and adapting to conditions; that is, acting in terms of selfless response by matching creation itself freely using the void's storehouse of unborn potential at one's disposal.

 

That's not a pet-theory— I'm just describing my day-job in those terms. So it is just my experience of seeing "subtle light" by not-seeing phenomena in terms of cloying gratification without denying characteristics— which is very un-sexy, in those terms. But I must admit that seeing situations beyond objects, as such, constitutes creation as void, as it is a really everlasting, independently alive environment where nothing ever eventually happens.

[Jeff]

 

I would like to make the suggestion that once this is the basis of practice, one is no longer working with the created, and hence, no longer going along with creation in terms of adapting to karmic evolution— which to me would be the working definition of enlightening being itself, whereby the essence of the void (not a meditation, mind, no-mind or no-self state) is itself the means of functioning in the world, perceiving reality and adapting to conditions; that is, acting in terms of selfless response by matching creation itself freely using the void's storehouse of unborn potential at one's disposal.

 

That's not a pet-theory— I'm just describing my day-job in those terms. So it is just my experience of seeing "subtle light" by not-seeing phenomena in terms of cloying gratification without denying characteristics— which is very un-sexy, in those terms. But I must admit that seeing situations beyond objects, as such, constitutes creation as void, as it is a really everlasting, independently alive environment where nothing ever eventually happens.

 

Hi deci belle,

 

If i may put it in other words... Are you saying above that your definition of enlightenment (and your interpretation of various texts) is basically clear & quiet mind in normal everyday life? Not being pulled or misled by preconceived thoughts and emotions. In essence, allowing the individual to true freedom to act. And also telling us this is your normal day to day state?

 

Also, basically saying you disagree with some of the Dzogchen quotes posted earlier in this thread?

 

Thanks.

 

[exorcist_1699]

Dealing with light is easy and funny, what you need is the power of imagination; dealing with No-Mind is much more difficult and dull , and at its initial stage, the dullest thing you ever experienced.

[idiot_stimpy]

Doesn't the imagination just create delusion though?

 

Imaginary, as in mirage like and not inherently real?

[Shagrath]

Doesn't the imagination just create delusion though?

 

Imaginary, as in mirage like and not inherently real?

 

If you have any thoughts you are not in a state of emptiness. Definition of mind is collection of thoughts and emotions. Some of them you are conscious about and that's conscious mind, while emotions and thoughts that you are not conscious about is subconscious mind. In average individual proportion of conscious and subconscious mind is 8:92 (roughly said 10:90, interesting fact is that that is the same proportion if ice in water. 10% is above surface while 90% is under). So in average there is 90% if mind content that you are not aware at all.

 

If you find yourself in state of emptiness and you have one thought you are not any more in the that state. Even if that thought might me HEY I AM IN STATE OF EMPTINESS, or THIS IS EMPTINESS. The moment you label that state it's gone. That is also true with imagination and visualization. They are also thoughts.

 

One orthodox christian saint said that imagination and visualization are just fun games for the mind. Nothing more nothing less.

 

In Buddhism they say that the closest words to describe that state is state of emptiness/nothingness on one side and state of unlimited potential on the other. Both describe the same state. Like in daoism they say Dao that can be described is not real dao. It is the same state.

 

If anyone was in that state and said that is boring/chaotic/destructive/etc or something like that was just experiencing void through partial segments of mind. It was not pure state of emptiness.

[C T]

If you have any thoughts you are not in a state of emptiness.

 

Actually, the basis of mind is already empty, beyond any constraints of time and space.

 

Even if one is flooded with incessant thoughts, this in no way stains the essence of the mind, which is primordially empty.

 

Some practices in the tibetan schools encourages practitioners to first get a glimpse or taste of this, and then to stabilize the view thru various other repetitive grinds. Prostrations, visualizations, that sort of thing.

Edited December 1, 2012 by C T

[Shagrath]

Actually, the basis of mind is already empty.

 

Even if one is flooded with incessant thoughts, this in no way stains the essence of the mind, which is primordially empty.

 

Essentially you are right. That is very true what you are saying in essence of mind origin. I agree with you on that 100%, but it is non constructive way of thinking.

 

If you state that than we can go further and say that our original essence is emptiness/dao and no matter what you do in life you are never gonna stain the essence. So whats the point of even trying, when you can live your life killing, taking drugs, drinking, etc and you are not gonna stain our primordial emptiness.

 

While that being truth, our quest is to become fully aware of that state and be able to consciously be in that state.

[Fū Yue]

Essentially you are right. That is very true what you are saying in essence of mind origin. I agree with you on that 100%, but it is non constructive way of thinking.

 

If you state that than we can go further and say that our original essence is emptiness/dao and no matter what you do in life you are never gonna stain the essence. So whats the point of even trying, when you can live your life killing, taking drugs, drinking, etc and you are not gonna stain our primordial emptiness.

 

While that being truth, our quest is to become fully aware of that state and be able to consciously be in that state.

 

I agree completely. I would also like to expound on why this particular state of mind is so incredibly damaging to progress and even our health-

 

We all must remember, the primordial purity is also living. It's weaving our lives on the fly, like a freestyle rapper. If you intentionally kill your brother while your mother is watching you play, do we really think that we're just going to get off scot-free? The present is given for free, but when we act, there is a weight to everything we do, and when we take, there is always a price.

 

We can't stain the essence, but we can corrupt our view of it, because the beholder is always making itself in the image of our actions. It basically just goes along with whatever happens to be arising and passing away at that moment. Free-jazz style. Really, it's just like music.

 

we must be fast enough, weightless enough, to go with the song of cessation... without leaving anything undone. Every loose end must be resolved, so we shouldn't do things with heavy consequences. Gotta keep the narrative light. The self is the most dedicated actor ever, don't underestimate the insanity of a perfectionist.

 

Its's just like the irish folktales about the sidhe, with their crazy rules and nonsense obligations that they stringently hold themselves accountable for while constantly trying to loophole their way out of every deal they make. The self is like that. It can't lie, so everything you see is the truth... but we must remember, the relative world is entirely symbolic. The appearance of our world is only a metaphor for what's really going on right now. Watch out for rogue similes, and don't write fairy tales that you can't easily retcon.

 

So, non-action. Because mother nature is sane, but we aren't, and we don't want to give her a reason to twist up our plots. We probably won't enjoy it at all. Two words: external blockages.

 

Heh. Anyway, well said, Shagrath. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Fū Yue

[Jeff]

 

So, non-action. Because mother nature is sane, but we aren't, and we don't want to give her a reason to twist up our plots. We probably won't enjoy it at all. Two words: external blockages.

 

Hmm. I really enjoyed writing this post because of all of the meta-puns.

 

It was a good post.

 

Could you explain more what you mean by "external blockages" and maybe how they relate to oneness?

 

Thanks.

 

[Shagrath]

.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Shagrath

[Fū Yue]

It was a good post.

 

Could you explain more what you mean by "external blockages" and maybe how they relate to oneness?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Just think of how, when we dream, if we have been turning a blind eye to what's just beyond the surface and neglecting very important things, they arise in our dreams in obvious or subtle ways.

 

If you act on ignorance during waking life, this is like denying the truth of selfless purity. But our mother will always have her way in the end, so that neglected virtue will seek manifestation at some point in your life if you don't pay it off with your attention as currency. Otherwise, it will come to fruition as illness and disease.Since it's our own delusion, we will have to own up to it or dispel it with a sharp, sword-like awareness. Bartering with mother nature, you gotta know when to hold em and when to fold em.

 

The whirled wants what it was promised, your whole life. It wants your complete attention. You can't squander the opportunity to go beyond this spicy jambalaya of cause and effect (LOL) because you never know what shes gonna add next to the stew. When you stop taking the obvious for granted, you will stop getting mixed in with the jump rope oscillations of rising and falling negative and positive energies, which hurt. You will start to coagulate the volatile elements and appreciate the impermanent.

 

You will start to see the middle path, free of extremes. If you think of the body as some sort of out-of-control alien spaceship, then you stop flying directly into the face of dangerous peaks and chasms and opt for the scenic route, because your pilot will finally start reading the manual and realize that blowing up is bad on the engine.

 

It wants you to take responsibility for your evolution at this moment so that it can finally relax and loosen up. The ego takes the earth and puts it on it's back, and then complains when she crushes him to bits while the Buddha rests on her navel, completely unharmed, and shakes it's head like, what an idiot. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. She's a little spiteful already, best just give her what she wants - your whole self. Plunge into the unknown and experience the intensity of the light, till it burns up whatever's left to see, then just be. In the vivid emptiness, totally aware.

 

The more potential you steal (like a natural disaster on a forever-long waiting list), the more selfless you will need to act, so that your energy doesn't bite you back or manifest in untoward ways. It's as deci belle said, self-generated trouble. In order to utilize your full potential, you need to leave behind habits, all of them, so that you dont get twisted up in energetic irony.

 

Really, our entire situation right now is self-generated trouble. Realization is the price that sages must pay for freedom. Once it's known, though, it's natural, so what is there to do? Just be what you have always been - free, from every thing. Once the way is free from debris, you should probably leave... Because your house is on fire, and the deliciously refreshing river of life is just to your left, then take a right! I'm sure if you ask the earth very nicely, maybe she will drown your clay hut with the waters as she dries off her hair after a swim, like Shakyamuni Buddha.

[Fū Yue]

Thank you very much for taking the entire text out of its content. What you have describing I am fully aware of that, but you have not understood my words of what I wanted to say. That says a lot of you.

 

So next time when you try to correct somebody based on their few sentences pleas read them few times, say to the author how you perceived the idea and ask the author if you understood it right. There would be much less misunderstanding if you follow my advice.

 

And thank you also for explaining to me something I already know. But you could not know that because of the all speculation.

 

I wasn't referring to the rest of your post, or even really your post at all, because I agreed with what you were saying. I was not attempting to correct you on anything. sorry for offending you.

 

My you in that post was impersonal. I wasn't talking about you, just in general a state of mind that tends to pop up when it comes to emptiness (as you said) I was only expounding on the point you were making, because it was so important and potentially life (and sanity) threatening when it comes to practice, not disagreeing with you. I sometimes forget that most people do not see things as clinically as I do. Once again, apologies. Edited for clarity.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Fū Yue

[Shagrath]

I wasn't referring to the rest of your post, or even really your post at all, because I agreed with what you were saying. I was not attempting to correct you on anything. sorry for offending you.

 

My you in that post was impersonal. I wasn't talking about you, just in general a state of mind that tends to pop up when it comes to emptiness (as you said) I was only expounding on the point you were making, because it was so important and potentially life (and sanity) threatening when it comes to practice, not disagreeing with you. I sometimes forget that most people do not see things as clinically as I do. Once again, apologies. Edited for clarity.

 

I am really glad that we agree It's really hard to find like minded individuals.

 

The point I was making that absolutely anything you do your essence stays the same because it is constant and changeless. On the other hand our mind is not, it is prone to changes and deviations. If somebody wants to commit their life for searching for the truth they must regulate as you said both internal and external "blockages".

 

But again searching for truth is BIG internal block because there is nothing to search for

Edited December 1, 2012 by Shagrath

[Fū Yue]

I am really glad that we agree It's really hard to find like minded individuals.

 

The point I was making that absolutely anything you do your essence stays the same because it is constant and changeless. On the other hand our mind is not, it is prone to changes and deviations. If somebody wants to commit their life for searching for the truth they must regulate as you said both internal and external "blockages".

 

But again searching for truth is BIG internal block because there is nothing to search for

 

Indeed! The most terrifying thing about the void for the individual, I think, is how intimate it is. It makes the time we spend in silent appreciation of it all the more important. Peace and love, two of the very few things we can rely on in this world, always with us. What greater truth could there be but that, right? it always leaves me grateful for what little I do have, and those I can share it with. We are all united in the great sameness, and it is in our apparent differences that we can recognize life's great compassion.

[C T]

Essentially you are right. That is very true what you are saying in essence of mind origin. I agree with you on that 100%, but it is non constructive way of thinking.

 

If you state that than we can go further and say that our original essence is emptiness/dao and no matter what you do in life you are never gonna stain the essence. So whats the point of even trying, when you can live your life killing, taking drugs, drinking, etc and you are not gonna stain our primordial emptiness.

 

While that being truth, our quest is to become fully aware of that state and be able to consciously be in that state.

 

Have you ever read the book 'The Mind of Clover: Essays in Zen Buddhist Ethics'?

 

No?

 

Its ok, i havent either.

 

But there's a meaningful quote in there somewhere which says, "The absolute position, when isolated, omits human details completely. Doctrines, including Buddhism, are meant to be used. Beware of them taking life of their own, for then, they use us."

 

I just thought this was almost appropriate to post here in light of what you had said.

 

Dont mean to be rude, but i'd like to add one more quote which really touched me deeply, and would like to post here since its also quite relevant to your comment.

 

"There are no moral absolutes in Buddhism and it is recognized that ethical decision-making involves a complex nexus of causes and conditions. 'Buddhism' encompasses a wide spectrum of beliefs and practices, and the canonical scriptures leave room for a range of interpretations. All of these are grounded in a theory of intentionality, and individuals are encouraged to always analyze issues carefully for themselves... When making moral choices, individuals are advised to examine their motivation -- whether aversion, attachment, ignorance, wisdom, or compassion -- and to weigh the consequences of their actions in light of the Buddha's teachings."

------ Karma Lekshe Tsomo, Professor of theology and Buddhist nun.

 

One who rises to meet the higher evolution of pure spiritual progress will naturally spawn goodness. There is no other way, no grey areas, no what ifs. Its what's in one's heart that matters, where actions are concerned. The Chinese have a saying, "Your heart knows".

 

How does it know? It knows because that which is essentially pure within, since beginningless time, speaks of righteous intentions always, and only thru the heart is this heard.

 

Of course, some would rather choose to ignore this, and act in misaligned ways, contrary to conscience and appropriate conduct.

 

Yet, those who act negatively are, in essence, no sinner, nor those who act with pure intentions saints.

 

I remember what St Augustine said in this regard.... "Once and for all then, a short precept is given unto you: Love, and do what you will: whether you hold your peace, thru love you hold your peace; whether you cry out, thru love cry out; whether you correct, thru love correct; whether you spare, thru love do you spare: let the root of love be within, for of this root can nothing spring but what is good."

Edited December 2, 2012 by C T

[Shagrath]

Have you ever read the book 'The Mind of Clover: Essays in Zen Buddhist Ethics'?

 

No?

 

Its ok, i havent either.

 

But there's a meaningful quote in there somewhere which says, "The absolute position, when isolated, omits human details completely. Doctrines, including Buddhism, are meant to be used. Beware of them taking life of their own, for then, they use us."

 

I just thought this was almost appropriate to post here in light of what you had said.

 

Dont mean to be rude, but i'd like to add one more quote which really touched me deeply, and would like to post here since its also quite relevant to your comment.

 

"There are no moral absolutes in Buddhism and it is recognized that ethical decision-making involves a complex nexus of causes and conditions. 'Buddhism' encompasses a wide spectrum of beliefs and practices, and the canonical scriptures leave room for a range of interpretations. All of these are grounded in a theory of intentionality, and individuals are encouraged to always analyze issues carefully for themselves... When making moral choices, individuals are advised to examine their motivation -- whether aversion, attachment, ignorance, wisdom, or compassion -- and to weigh the consequences of their actions in light of the Buddha's teachings."

------ Karma Lekshe Tsomo, Professor of theology and Buddhist nun.

 

One who rises to meet the higher evolution of pure spiritual progress will naturally spawn goodness. There is no other way, no grey areas, no what ifs. Its what's in one's heart that matters, where actions are concerned. The Chinese have a saying, "Your heart knows".

 

How does it know? It knows because that which is essentially pure within, since beginningless time, speaks of righteous intentions always, and only thru the heart is this heard.

 

Of course, some would rather choose to ignore this, and act in misaligned ways, contrary to conscience and appropriate conduct.

 

Yet, those who act negatively are, in essence, no sinner, nor those who act with pure intentions saints.

 

I remember what St Augustine said in this regard.... "Once and for all then, a short precept is given unto you: Love, and do what you will: whether you hold your peace, thru love you hold your peace; whether you cry out, thru love cry out; whether you correct, thru love correct; whether you spare, thru love do you spare: let the root of love be within, for of this root can nothing spring but what is good."

 

 

No I haven't read that book. Thank you for recommendation

 

You said it really nicely I agree with every word you said. My teacher always said on this subject the following How many enlightened Buddhist are there? The same amount as enlightened bakers.

 

The deeds are not crucial to spiritual awakening, inner state and transcendence of Ego is. The are indeed few known individuals throughout history that have realized the Truth and yet they were soldiers and killed people.

 

I didn't want to bring that up because it can be easily misunderstood, and I don't like arguing

 

The path toward enlightenment is not universal path. There are as many spiritual paths as many living people. I think that most people who follow some practices (buddhism, taoism, christianity, zen, etc) are blinded. Instead I think you should spend time discovering the truth for yourself and find your own way. All those religions and practices are beautiful and really rich with knowledge and I really like reading them. I always try to see what is behind the words and it is the Truth. It is the same for every religion. There is one Truth but many interpretations (religions).

 

I didn't want to bring that up because it can be easily misunderstood, and I don't like arguing

[Shagrath]

Indeed! The most terrifying thing about the void for the individual, I think, is how intimate it is. It makes the time we spend in silent appreciation of it all the more important. Peace and love, two of the very few things we can rely on in this world, always with us. What greater truth could there be but that, right? it always leaves me grateful for what little I do have, and those I can share it with. We are all united in the great sameness, and it is in our apparent differences that we can recognize life's great compassion.

 

Absolutely

 

The more I meditate and go into that state the more grateful I am for that. Like you said (above bold part) there no distinction between you and entire Universe. You see yourself in others and other in you.

 

The possibility of our mind to go into that state and to realize the our true Source is the greatest power man possesses.

[adept]

A very good description of the void from Paul Brunton :

 

http://wisdomsgoldenrod.org/notebooks/23/8

[adept]

And from a Ch'an perspective :

 

http://wenshuchan-online.weebly.com/cao-dong-enlightenment---the-five-positions-of-ruler-and-minister.html

[MERCELESS ONE]

I really don't know. I am not a big fan of taoistic descriptions because they are way too complicated for me. Sometimes I have a feeling that even they don't know what they are talking about I like very much more simplistic views like Theravada Buddhism or Advaita Vedandta Hinduism. Neither Buddha, Nisargadatta, Ramana, Meher Baba, Padre Pie, etc never talked about any fetuses and yet they all were awakened and aware of illusion and had compassion.

 

the immortal fetus is the dantien

[GrandmasterP]

It's all metaphors, much the same thing being described but using different words depending on the tradition of the describer.