Meditation and Retention

[DanC]

I have been reading Bodri's articles over on Meditationexpert.com and I have a question as to

why he suggests that meditators must refrain from sexual leakage. I love his articles on Meditation

and he has inspired me too be a more dedicated meditator but I refuse to give up sex and ejaculation.

Am I wasting my time meditating?, my reasons for meditating are to gain more calrity, to think clearer,

to be more focused, for my health and to get closer to my true self.. I just cannot deal with the

fact that alot of meditation teachers talk about retention and celibacy like its a must, even buddhist monks

have been known to have sex, I think its unhealthy for the regular guy to practice retention

on a regular basis, I actually like the fact that meditation boost sexual desire.

 

Daniel

[Cameron]

Smile(Max) has an interesting way of explaining this. Something about how you want to be free from lustful thoughts and have a more "innocent" sexual energy that is easy to transform(If you read Bodri or Master Nan they talk about Jing to Chi to Shen transformations that happen).

 

I think Master Nan(Bodri's teacher) says the REAL "100 Days" practice is not just refrain from sex but refrain from lustful thoughts. If you live in a major city or anywhere near civilization this is pretty much impossible. And like you said doesn't interest you anyway.

 

I would say practice from where you are at. Accept yourself with all your desires and needs and bring your cultivation into it and look at it all as a learning process. But I think Smile might be able to explain the philosophy behind the jing to qi to shen transformation if you want to ask him.

[Christoph]

You are definately not wasting your time if you dont pratice retention.I like to have normal sex and not be a control freak about everything and have reaped numerous benifits from my practice.

IMO reapeted sex without ejaculation sounds rather masochistic and probably not the best thing for your prostate.

[Yoda]

The classical approach to spiritual cultivation is to really load up the disciplines and then get into meditation and energy practice down the road. An alternative way is to teach meditation then energy practices and then, if you are so inspired, to bring in the elements of discipline later as the energy practices develop.

 

Imo, Bodri's work is excellent but too difficult for me to follow. I've found advancedyogapractices.com to be essentially the same message but delivered in a more mellow context which is easier for me.

 

-Yoda

[DanC]

Yoda, I am starting to think the same, I have the Yogani Meditation book and loved its simplicity.

There is no way I am going to go through life not having sex or ejaculating, my personal belief

is to have as much sex as possible, I live by the quote " One life One Chance"

 

Daniel

[turbo]

I refuse to give up sex and ejaculation.

Am I wasting my time meditating?

 

 

Yes. Absolutely. Beyond any doubt. The mere thought of sex arouses desire which disturbs the jing, not to mention the actual loss of semen.

 

Regarding Yogani's approach, it is not the same as the buddhist approach that Bodri and his teacher Nan Huai-Chin teach. I believe that Buddha said that there is nothing on the path that he taught that is not necessary. Thus by implication retention is necessary. Nan Huai-Chin says that retention is so difficult that not one in ten thousand are able to achieve enlightenment.

 

The Yogani approach is a pure yogic approach and is different from the buddhist approach. While I currently evaluating the differences between the approaches, it seems like in terms of reaching true enlightenment Huai-Chin/Bodri have the correct teaching. Yogani says that his approach and the goal of AYP and all other schools of cultivation is "purification of the nervous system." This seems like a preliminary step in the Bodri approach.

 

But, as far as using meditation for your goals of

my reasons for meditating are to gain more calrity, to think clearer, to be more focused, for my health and to get closer to my true self

then it depends on how much of these you want.

[Eric23]

For years I had been avoiding retention. Health issues related to several prostate infections and the simple fact that I really enjoy ejactulating kept me on that path. At the same time I have been told by several experts in the field that there are levels of orgasmic pleasures that cannot be discovered without retention. Part of this journey that I'm on is to find new and deeper places within me, particularly in the area of orgasm. Therefore retention is on the menu for me, however I'm following the recommended "venting" schedule ie. 2-3 weeks and using the big draw and massage to keep the energy from getting stale. I try and keep my yoga/meditation time seperate from my solo cultivation time. Meditation has lead me to some very important places that have nothing or everything to do with orgasmic pleasure. I probably havn't answered your question, not that I'm qualified, but you seem to be interested in sex and retention could take you to new sexual frontiers.

[Yoda]

Imo, Yogani would say that the Bodri/Yogani paths are essentially the same but Bodri wouldn't.

[VCraigP]

This topic never fails to gather a lot of attention when it comes up.

 

I often find myself wondering what women think about all this.

 

I am aware of the Taoist concepts regarding female cultivation. It is hard to escape the conclusion that all these systems exclude women as candidates for cultivation beyond a certain point. It always seems that men are talking about the magical elixir of semen and sexual essence cultivation.

 

And, women, of which there are quite a few here at Taobums lately, seem to stay away from these discussions altogether (probably bored by us sexually obsessed males).

 

My apologies to those taking this subject ever so seriously. Just wondering...

 

What is my question? Without Semen to transform do women have no path? Or is it just simpler? Or is their physical composition and emotional tendencies truly an insurmountable hindrance in cultivation as it seems some less politally correct schools seem to think. (don't attack me, I don't believe this, but I know the thoughtform is strongly out there in one form or another.)

 

I guess I feel like asking questions today, and not answering them.

 

As for retention. We are in the depths of winter. This would be the ideal time to reduce or eliminate anything which would tend to drain your vital energy. Now is the time for storage and rest.

 

As for myself. Not doing retention. But reduction of frequency and recycling are ongoing processes which ebb and flow. I am married with children. Not ready for the mountain....yet.

 

Craig

[Smile]

Turbo put it the same way I see it. If your inspirations are very high, then you should learn to gradually retain your semen. Plus, eventually the orgasmic energy within your body would be enough to convince you you are on the right track.

 

Craig raised an interesting question: "Without Semen to transform do women have no path? Or is it just simpler? Or is their physical composition and emotional tendencies truly an insurmountable hindrance in cultivation as it seems some less politally correct schools seem to think."

 

Women have an advantage at the begining because of their sexual makeup and reach high levels really fast, but then they would have to evercome their emotional nature, and that's where most of them "fail".

 

Men "fail" right from the start because of their inability to control their sexual desires, but if they could, their spiritual advancement is much easier then for a woman (overcoming one's mind is one example).

[DanC]

I dont want to reach the highest levels of spiritual development, I use meditation to reach inner silence and

to get a glimpse of my true self, the benefits of meditation seem to effect every aspect of my life by improving

my moods, mental clarity, chi flow, internal health and help me find my true purpose in life.

For those who can live life wihout sex or leakage more power to you, but Im not going to deprive myself

of such enjoyment in this life, I suppose we all have different paths.

[turbo]

What is my question? Without Semen to transform do women have no path? Or is it just simpler? Or is their physical composition and emotional tendencies truly an insurmountable hindrance in cultivation as it seems some less politally correct schools seem to think. (don't attack me, I don't believe this, but I know the thoughtform is strongly out there in one form or another.)

 

It is ridiculous to think that women are without sexual desire. I think that there is some confusion about the term jing. Physically jing is semen. However for spiritual purposes it is sexual energy, not the physical substance. Buddhists say that the elimination of sexual desire is the the key to spiritual transformation, along with meditation and other things. So "preserving the jing" while having sex is most difficult, because it would require you to not desire sex, yet engage in it. While I am nowhere near the level of not desiring sex, the act just described would seem nearly impossible.

 

So then women must sublimate their sexual desire into spiritual transformation as well. Huai-Chin states that menses will decline then stop all together after enough realization.

 

I think that it is sexist and silly to think that women are incapable or somehow hindered in their ability to progress spiritually. However there are some unique issues that apply to women according to Huai-Chin.

[Cameron]

Big issue for men. A koan to last a lifetime. Doesn't sound like any problem exists for you though. I think your probably the best teacher for yourself when it comes to this. People can give you quotes about what Buddha said or what Master Nan said or whatever. But your going to be attracted to what your attacted to and will explore it.

 

One thing Smile said that's interesting to me is how the bliss that you get from culitvation(I guess including retention) is beyond sexual pleasure. I think I remember reading Buddha say how enlightenment is so far beyond all the pleasure in the world if you took all the pleasures of the world and put them together it wouldn't be one percent(or something like that) of the experience of enlightenment.

 

Don't quote me on that. I read that like ten years ago in some book about what Buddha said somewhere. But if your really called to the path of celibacy probably shouldn't force your sexual energy into submission.

Should probably just be the natural unfolding of your energy or whatever(as it goes through higher transformations or whatever).

 

But since your clear you want to have sex not an issue. Have fun.

[Smile]

The sensations coming from long retention shouldn't be the goal, but the pleasure is far beyound what you get from a regular orgasm. To compare, it's like someone would say he doesn't want to stop sneezing or sticking a q-tip in the ear because it feels so good, and then another would say getting their toes sucked brings them much more pleasure. Then, others would say sex is the highest pleasure and others- a prostate orgasm. Then, a few people would say the bliss that arises form meditation is far beyound all things mentioned.

 

All of that is playing with sensations. And the greater the pleasure- the harder it is to escape the trap. Buddha said if it wasn't for sexual desire, the enlightenment path would be very easy. He knew what he was talking about.

Max

[xenolith]

Very interesting discussion. I wonder about the female mechanism for MCO activation too.

 

Our new female member witch reports a CCO within a very high frequency of vaginal orgasms. These are analogous to prostate orgasms in men, and are tremendous drains of sexual energy that completely disrupt the distillation of jing to chi and disperse chi before it can be brought to the sacral pump (I refer to these orgasms as "leaking chi" orgasms). For men, they are antithetical to the achievement of movement of chi to higher centers. Makes me wonder.

 

What I do know: Mrs. x (long before she became mrs. x) faithfully trained (kegel egg, egg weights) in accordance with the guidance from the Chias' "Cultivating Female Sexual Energy" and while she was able to extend her menstrual cycle to about 8 weeks and strengthen her happy parts considerably , she never felt her chi enter her sacral pump. She trained for about 3 years. Maybe that wasn't long enough to attain that benchmark of MCO activation. I think that's the case, I know it wasn't for me. But I'm not a woman, so I don't know. Basically confused and conflicted about female MCO/CCO mechanics. Probably meant to be that way...woman are supposed to be mysterious right?!

 

Nan Huai-Chin says that retention is so difficult that not one in ten thousand are able to achieve enlightenment.

 

Indeed. "Some men may not be ready for many more lifetimes to change stages." - Mantak Chia (ref: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...amp;st=0).

 

But it can be done. I've done it. I'm sorry if it offends anyone for me to say that. I mean not to. I say it not out of pride, but out of Love and the hope that sharing the truth of what I've experienced may benefit others who may be able to experience it too. I hope that's understood. I know it sounds incredibly corny, like some Timothy Leary acolyte, but I know that the world would be a better place if we all could experience a CCO. I'm saddened because it seems so unreasonably unfortunate that so few apparently ever do. Maybe Chia is right...it's just a matter of sufficient lifetimes. Which is only slightly less saddening.

 

I've rambled enough for tonight.

 

Cheers. And Love.

 

xeno

 

p.s. CCO shouldn't be thought of orgasms...I think it was MatBlack who stated this...I agree. They're not sexual experiences at all. They're awareness experiences.

 

p.s.s. Fer pitysakes fellas!...you can have sex and be on the path to spiritual evolution, just practice SKF when you do. Hello McFly!...you can have more sex this way!

Edited January 3, 2007 by xenolith

[DanC]

Screw bliss I want sex with lots women.. Hahaha

[VCraigP]

Hi

 

Acronym explanation request.

 

CCO = ???

 

SKF = ???

 

Is my brain not working or did I miss something when studying with HT?

 

thanks

 

Craig

 

PS - If I don't get the acronyms you can bet there are any number of folks who also don't.

[Taoist81]

Hi

 

Acronym explanation request.

 

CCO = ???

 

SKF = ???

 

Is my brain not working or did I miss something when studying with HT?

 

thanks

 

Craig

 

PS - If I don't get the acronyms you can bet there are any number of folks who also don't.

 

You would have had to have been following Xeno's other posts to follow his use of these.

 

CCO=Crown Chakra Orgasms

SKF=Sexual Kung Fu

Edited January 3, 2007 by Taoist81

[Trunk]

she never felt her chi enter her sacral pump.

There are more efficient ways to do that. See the sacrum section (and referenced links) in spine essay.

[xenolith]

Thanks Trunk. I didn't mean to connote that she/we didn't try methods such as some of the ones contained in that excellent reference. She/we did. They worked for me and didn't for her.

 

Craig and Taoist, minor point, I use SKF to mean what Chia referred to it as, Seminal Kung Fu. There is also OKF, Ovarian Kung Fu.

Edited January 4, 2007 by xenolith

[mat black]

Intersting you mention the sacrum exercise Trunk.

 

I remember practicing that one based on your recomendations about a year ago.

Latelly during my meditations, the sacrum pulsations have been happening on their own.

The sensation begins in the proatate and continues pulsating up the sacrum and along the spine on it's own.

 

this is being done with a practice that cultivates and refines and integrates the jing/qi/shen at the same time, while even accessing and transforming the unconcious.

 

it's an amazing practice and one that balances the diffent energies.

 

i hope i can come to the states one day and meet face 2 face 'cause i don't like articulating through a computer.

 

actually, my master may be comming to san fransisco some time this year. if he does, i'll post details.

 

 

and yeah X i much prefer to refer to the higher center energetic states as something other than orgasm, because they are an internal nourishing experience, not an excited state followed by a let down ala orgasm.

[thelerner]

Wasn't there an old kung fu flick, Ovarian Kung Fu vs. Seminal? As I recall the last climactic battle was a draw

 

Michael

[xenolith]

Wasn't there an old kung fu flick, Ovarian Kung Fu vs. Seminal? As I recall the last climactic battle was a draw

 

Michael

[forestofsouls]

Yes. Absolutely. Beyond any doubt. The mere thought of sex arouses desire which disturbs the jing, not to mention the actual loss of semen.

 

Regarding Yogani's approach, it is not the same as the buddhist approach that Bodri and his teacher Nan Huai-Chin teach. I believe that Buddha said that there is nothing on the path that he taught that is not necessary. Thus by implication retention is necessary. [snipped]

 

When/where/how did the Buddha teach retention? Celibacy is one of the precepts for monks, but not for laypeople. Laypeople are told to avoid sexual misconduct.

 

I was under the impression that the Buddhist approach to sexual desire was like its approach to desire generally: as a source of craving/attachment, it is something to be overcome with time and practice. However, it is an impression and could stand correcting if necessary.

[Pero]

When/where/how did the Buddha teach retention? Celibacy is one of the precepts for monks, but not for laypeople. Laypeople are told to avoid sexual misconduct.

 

I was under the impression that the Buddhist approach to sexual desire was like its approach to desire generally: as a source of craving/attachment, it is something to be overcome with time and practice. However, it is an impression and could stand correcting if necessary.

 

 

Yup, that`s similar to how I understand it. And actually, I read that according to Tibetan medicine, retention can be bad for your health. It`s only supposed to be practiced under guidance and with specific practices. Also, I read that during winter it`s good to ejaculate more, and during summer less, which is interesting. I think you should basically listen to your body... Not ejaculate too much, and not use retention too much.

 

And BTW, Buddha and those that came after, taught MANY things, as there are MANY different people and many different circumstances and conditions...