Meditation and Retention

[turbo]

When/where/how did the Buddha teach retention? Celibacy is one of the precepts for monks, but not for laypeople. Laypeople are told to avoid sexual misconduct.

 

 

Celibacy and the destructive nature of sexual activity are mentioned throughout Buddhist sutras and their commentaries. The taoist Kuang Ch'eng Tzu said that merely thinking lustful thoughts will disturb your jing. So its not limited to Buddhists or monks.

 

Sexual misconduct is a very vague term and is subject to many interpretations. Surely rape is sexual misconduct. How about sex outside of marriage? How about sex without the intent to procreate?

[DanC]

Celibacy and the destructive nature of sexual activity are mentioned throughout Buddhist sutras and their commentaries.

 

The destructive nature of sex, this is a very extreme point of view, If you dont have sex and you continue

to repress your sexual urges it will somehow manifest in a negative way. I work with a guy who hasn't had

sex in 20 years, this guy is the most negative unhappy individual I have ever met in my life, as to why he has not had sex Im not too sure, the man has alot of issues with women.

I think if he got with a women he could release some of this build up of frustration and anger and be a more

easy going happy person with a positive outlook on life.

 

Dan

Edited January 4, 2007 by DanC

[turbo]

The destructive nature of sex, this is a very extreme point of view, If you dont have sex and you continue

to repress your sexual urges it will somehow manifest in a negative way.

 

Its hardly an extreme view, its a fact of spiritual cultivation.

 

I agree that repression of sexual urges will cause them to manifest in a negative way. However, a spiritual cultivator deals with these urges with more skill than simply repressing them. Bodri has an article on it. He also mentions somewhere else the look of people who have taken vows of celibacy without sublimating their energy spiritually is much different than those who have.

[forestofsouls]

I agree that sexual activity is a form of emitting energy. But it is not simply a loss, it can be a gift. It is a deeply personal and intimate gift, the gift of one's very vital essence, which, in addition to being necessary to the human species, builds love and intimacy. I would suppose that one could be miserly with one's jing as easy as with one's money, but it seems to me that this will simply create the same craving/aversion - desire/suffering centered around sex and ejaculation.

 

What I take issue with is the statement that meditation without controlling ejaculation is useless. Many of us can speak from personal experience the benefits of using bare attention, to watch and study oneself over long peroids of time. There was a time when I was exoterically restrained (i.e. in act) but esoterically inflamed (in inner state). However, with meditation over time, my inner flames have subsided and even though I'm married, I have much more vitality, energy, inner peace, etc. than before. One burns far, far more energy through stress, muscular tension, inner attitude, and immoral conduct than you do with sexual ejaculation. In this situation, sexual restraint will likely only increase stress, muscular tension, inner attitude, and immoral conduct.

[Spectrum]

If after time spent with mind empty and inner eye on your dan tien you don't experience heat, it would be perscriptive to abstain from sex for at least 3 days or until you experience said heat in the dan tien.

 

In 1993 I recieved accupuncture from a Buddhist monk who after I asked him directly, told me he had not ejaculated for 11 years. I only asked him because he had good gung. As far as I know his practices consisted of buddhist meditation and yang taijiquan, as well as a vegetarian diet.

Edited January 6, 2007 by Spectrum

[gendao]

[arnquist]

Dunno exactly how to interpret all that...but it's an interesting counterpoint.

Yay for sex! That's my interpretation. But yeah, which is the cart and which is the horse is indeed an interesting question. I'd like to think that list is right and that all those positive benefits are coming from the sex, but maybe that's just wishful thinking. I guess it makes sense that "turning off" your sex drive would make you more aware and skillful in other aspects. Kind of like how a blind man makes more use of and therefore becomes stronger in his remaining senses.

[joeblast]

...most of those benefits can be gotten elsewhere....sweat?? strengthening muscle? salivation? come on...

 

I'd look for weak statistical correlations on that last one...regular function is likely healthy, but they make it sound like the more the merrier, extrapolate as far as you like....

[林愛偉]

I have been reading Bodri's articles over on Meditationexpert.com and I have a question as to

why he suggests that meditators must refrain from sexual leakage. I love his articles on Meditation

and he has inspired me too be a more dedicated meditator but I refuse to give up sex and ejaculation.

Am I wasting my time meditating?, my reasons for meditating are to gain more calrity, to think clearer,

to be more focused, for my health and to get closer to my true self.. I just cannot deal with the

fact that alot of meditation teachers talk about retention and celibacy like its a must, even buddhist monks

have been known to have sex, I think its unhealthy for the regular guy to practice retention

on a regular basis, I actually like the fact that meditation boost sexual desire.

 

Daniel

 

 

Buddhist monks having sex? haha they shouldn't be, and wouldn't be Buddhist monks if they did.

Sex is so enjoyable to the many that it becomes a deeply rooted desire. Even the Shakyamuni Buddha stated that if there was another desire more stronger than sex, it would be impossible to become a Buddha.

 

It is that one should keep the sexual energy without mixing with another's. Keeps things pure, and less to clean out so to say. Its not about being a control freak, its just about seeing the outcomes cultivation wise and the wisdom attained. Emotional stimulation may be something we experience easy, but it doesn't make it natural...haha

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Spectrum]

Ya gotta do whatcha gotta do. If the compulsions of LIFE hinder your cultivation then change them. My question would be does your compulsion towards cultivation hinder your LIFE? Cultivation enhances life, so you might actually feel MORE, instead of less.

 

Yet how else would one go about building a fire in the furnace with no fuel? (jing)

 

It's a very natural thing. As waxing and waning with the moon. Don't take it to serious, it's only life and death. It always is, even w/ sex, so take it as seriously as you take sex. <innocent smile> You always start where you left off.

 

I think the main "Problem" encuntered here is that humans have a hard time keeping their hands/mind off things for long enough to experience the internally generated patterns that are being externally reinforced.

 

Observation and non-attachment to perceived outcomes helps people go within by living without.

 

Fasting can save your life,

 

Spectrum

[seadog]

Me thinks there may be a issue with ones age in regards to this topic.You can only squeeze so much juice from a lemon.

[Mal]

Screw bliss I want sex with lots women.. Hahaha

 

Nothing wrong with that at all IMO

 

Me thinks there may be a issue with ones age in regards to this topic.You can only squeeze so much juice from a lemon.

 

I think age is important too. Personally I have been told retention is "the thing to do" since I was 18, it's only at 33 that is has become something I WANT to do, perhaps

 

I'd say don't worry, I'm sure you will get benefits from meditation without retention. Just like I'm sure retention would be harmful to meditation if was frustrating / annoying / make you angry ect ect.........

 

But people better than me say that retention is important............ I'm starting to believe them

 

But Life is long, plenty of time to get things right, be happy

 

p.s. where have all the girls gone

[VeeCee]

p.s. where have all the girls gone

 

I thought you were in a committed relationship?

[bd2]

Edited October 14, 2007 by bd2

[mantis]

i prefer to call having sex and ejaculating natural (as it was how we came to be today) than sitting in a cave not ejaculating for years on end to attain something you might not even get in this life.

 

by the way, who said this thing about life times? has anyone come back from the grave and said you won't become enlightened now? i mean, how can you tell? if you practice your entire life and don't become enlightened maybe you're on the wrong path? hmm.

 

i just read this post and sorry if it sounds bitter - i just heavily disagree with the way buddhist monks operate. it's egyptian in every shape and form. buddhists do not address the next life or what happens after death yet it may take many lifetimes to become enlightened. i don't know if i'm not "wise" enough or what but that seems like a contradiction to me.

 

it's like lifting weights wrong your entire life only to realize after many lifetimes you've been doing it wrong the entire time and then do it correctly and get results (results being enlightenment). just meditate, live your life, and fuck what happens after.

Edited October 15, 2007 by mantis

[Cameron]

Excellent point Mantis.

 

My feeling..some people have trouble throwing everything out.

 

Incidently..this is the view many Masters say we should have.

 

Can you say stuck?

[Mal]

I thought you were in a committed relationship?

 

I am, 16 years.

 

The "where are all girls gone" reference was more along the lines of "the boys are talking about retention again and the Female 'bums have left us to our own devices"

[hagar]

In my own experience with retention, there is alot to be learnt from just reading the old Daoist classics like Chang Po Tuan, who states that the grand thief of life and energy is not sex but the emotions. Purify the heart and the emotions and your body will be a better "vessel".

 

I feel this is true. But I am not sure. Do you people have any of the below experiences?

 

Physical retention is possible by creating space and circulation in the body. Space is created by emptying; physically, mentally and emptionally. If you attach to sexual sensations, images, thoughts, dreams, space is diminished. For me it comes to the point where I don't have to ejaculate to feel the pain in the lower back, the soreness behind the knees, the irritated eyes, tiredness etc usually associated with too much ejaculation. It is enough just to imagine, and follow sexual desire.

 

The soma, psyche and emotions are one. Loss of energy related to sex is basically about other deeper issues. I have started to look at how I feel in my life: Am I happy? Do I supress my emotions? Am I overworked? Am I resting enough? Am I in conflict with my deeper spiritual desires?, Am I avoiding conflicts? Do I avoid intimacy?

These issues always rest below the surface of heightenend sexual focus beyond the attraction to my partner. It is always a subconscious force that emerges as sexual arousal. Thus ejaculation and retention as a primary focus should from my experience be replaced by an increased focus on practice per se, and then the true source of why "sealing the gate" is so difficult will be revealed. Focusing on how to have sex without "losing it" is just going to make more issues about "loss" pop ut alon the way. It is a very unwholesome perspective, and will in the end create alot of problems.

 

My 2 Kroner's

 

h

[宁]

there are other forms of taoism that insist on saying one should never approach sexual practices unless one has "stabilized the shen" - what a laugh

it's like saying, you should not built the foundation until you have built the roof.

so you have to built the roof on thin air

if you dont have a proper understanding of the sexual energy, the Tan cannot be created.

the Tan is the fusing of the pre-natal and the post-natal energy. the sexual energy is the mediator of this union.

so that is why you need at least a celibacy practice to go thru it.

there is much to say on the topic, and i usually try to squeeze in some common sense on it from time to time.

just so you and we all know, at least the basic and preparatory conditions for the higher practices, can all be created inside oneself simply by living a clean and balanced life, not too much, not too little, but try to work clean. you'd be amazed to see how much "acheivement" have people that follow this simple natural law, instinctively.

people have asked me, if i am content with what i do, what do i look for in here, or in simmilar places. i think the most honest answer, which i already given, is that when two different perspectives come together, if the conditions are right, a third new perspective may arise. this is not a easy matter, nor is it an easy thing to get, even these days, when it seems more and more information is out there.

[hagar]

there are other forms of taoism that insist on saying one should never approach sexual practices unless one has "stabilized the shen" - what a laugh

it's like saying, you should not built the foundation until you have built the roof.

so you have to built the roof on thin air

 

The sexual practice is not the foundation.

 

h

[90_1494798740]

[宁]

no, it is part of it. if you want to go thru the foundation practice, you need that. the first step is learning not to dissipate. the major way, for a man, is sex. so why do you say it is not foundation?

 

what you say about emotions has been already said, countless times.

no wonder women feel that men dump their negative energies on them while having sex.

it's quite true.

and what you say is correct too. if a man learns how to transform the negative energies first, the compulsive need to "burst" into ejaculation slowly dissapears. winn teaches that since decades... that's why he talks about learning the fusion practices before the sexual practices. but the foundation of alchemy is jing. that's it...

 

the emotional energy is transformed sexual energy. so...

 

edit: by sex i dont mean only the sexual act. it is much more than this. maybe you didnt agree because i didnt specify this before

Edited October 15, 2007 by Little1

[rain]

Quote Little:"there are other forms of taoism that insist on saying one should never approach sexual practices unless one has "stabilized the shen" - what a laugh biggrin.gif

it's like saying, you should not built the foundation until you have built the roof.

so you have to built the roof on thin air biggrin.gif "

------------------------------------

 

someone said in another thread that the crown is NOT the top..it's down dee things become interesting. but i wouldn't know.

 

 

 

 

 

"wabbit hole"......

Edited October 15, 2007 by rain

[hagar]

no, it is part of it. if you want to go thru the foundation practice, you need that. the first step is learning not to dissipate. the major way, for a man, is sex. so why do you say it is not foundation?

 

 

Apologies for short post.

 

This is too huge a topic to go into without generating more discussion about basics.

 

In essence it comes down to what you practice, what you are taught and what you need to figure out yourself.

 

Sexual practice is a side-practice meant as support for the advanced practitioner. This does not mean you should have mindless sex. It means that building a foundation is going to the root of your own self, physically, mentally and spiritually.

 

Initially, we are all quite filthy energywise. A good analogy is a damp piece of wood. Dry the wood, let the decayed water evaporate, and purify the wood before using it for fuel.

 

Our bodies have so much unresolved stuff that needs to be worked out before sexual practice is useful.

But moderation in all matters, including sexual ones is important at any level.

 

h

[thelerner]

Retention is not my strong suit so I'm biased towards dismissing its importance. When I studied Kaishan Golden Bell Chi gung they said you needed the 100 days of celibacy and it was best to do it at the beginning of your practice. Max's Kunlun system is similar. Its a fairly common in many esoteric systems.

 

How important do you think the 100 days is?

 

 

 

Michael