The Significance in height of of the upper thighs of Zhan Zhuang

[ChiDragon]

Since you are an expert could you post pictures of you standing at both levels.

Thanks

 

I can only do the 45 degree stance for a long period of time without any pain.

 

45 degree stance

[ChiDragon]

The 90 degree(low Zhuang, 低樁) is the ultimate stance only can be done by Shaolin monks.

 

90 degree stanceby Shaolin a monk while he is eating rather than meditating:

 

http://www.snowyy.co...rse-stance.html

Edited November 29, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

The 90 degree(low Zhuang, 低樁) is the ultimate stance only can be done by Shaolin monks.

 

90 degree stanceby Shaolin a monk while he is eating rather than meditating:

 

http://www.snowyy.co...rse-stance.html

 

where is the knee going beyond the toes in that stance?

 

The knees are at ~ 90 degrees because his butt is lowered (low stance). As sung increases, the stance will automatically become lower. That doesn't mean one has to fight through pain and physical damage to do that.

 

Standing is done for following purposes (ime, imho) --

 

* develop alignment

* open up the kua

* learn to root/ground

* learn to suspend from crown point

* separate the full and empty/substantial and insubstantial

* increase qi flow in the body

* beome sensitive to qi flow, especially in the mingmen, dai mai and lower dan tien

 

In the style of taiji we practice (that is taught by my teacher and his teacher), we do lot of standing (sometimes for an hour at a time). And initially it was very hard because I didn't know how to relax and sink the weight into the ground (so it was hard on my knees and ankles). My teacher asks us to never over exert, never go beyond our comfort zone. The the trick it seems in knowing our limitations and not over-doing things (not too much, not to little, it has to be just right).

 

Another thing we do (which I have never seen other stylists do, is to stand with the toes pointing inward 45 degrees), so we have a slight bend at the knee, but by standing with toes in (rather than splayed outward as in a v), the kua opens up and also the lower back gets rounded, the tailbone is dropped without exerting...

[Walker]

I prefer running into guys like 扯淡Dragon in the park or on holy mountains in China, rather than online, where anonymity makes them more pernicious. There are plenty of them, and usually they wait till everybody I practice with has gone home, when finally they approach me to say, "your teacher has it all wrong, I have the real path" or, "your posture is not correct." Invariably when I ask for a demonstration, various excuses appear. That's when I know: 纸上谈兵 and 纸上谈玄. A very popular set of pastimes in China, actually. One guy tried to get me to study with his great ultimate master. Couple years later great ultimate master's unusual techniques had him meditating in the snow shirtless till he was shitting blood and on the verge of death. And this fellow still thinks he knows the secrets of cultivation. Delusion is bad enough. Delusion desperately seeking a following... Sigh.

[ChiDragon]

"The knees are at ~ 90 degrees because his butt is lowered (low stance). As sung increases, the stance will automatically become lower. That doesn't mean one has to fight through pain and physical damage to do that."

 

It was understood that one can do 90 degree stance, one had went through all the pain and torture from the practice in the earlier stage. His muscles are well adapt to the stressfulness. You have too much emphasis on the sung. That was for the amateurs. The 90 degree cannot be done with the state of sung. Have you ever tried the 90 degree stance....???

Edited November 29, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Walker....

"纸上谈兵 and 纸上谈玄"

 

 

真金不怕紅爐火。

[Wisdom Seeker]

Hello. I am fairly new to this forum and after reading this post, I was hesitant to offer my experiences with zhan zhuang. It seems like one member wants to discredit the other and so on. I think we all would fare better to nurture and learn from our brother rather than try and out do him...just my two cents.

 

I began studying Zhan ZHuang nearly a decade ago. It started as supplemental training along with 6 other forms of moving qigong. On my first attempt at it, I held a posture for 10 minutes using some of the advanced principals, but with a beginners understanding of the process(es) involved in the postures. It was quite strenuous and my calves were solid and sore for two days. I quickly learned how much power could be generated in only a handful of minutes using this amazing method.

 

Fast forward 9 years.

 

For me, the 'POWER' is not a physical thing. It is not tense muscles, or flexed anything. I discovered that the essence of true zhan zhuang (my conclusion so far) was stillness, softness, and no-thing ness. I realize that I just overlapped some with a basic WUJI concept, but it is during this 'SOFTNESS' when I experience the greatest movement within. The energy is a grand 'GYROSCOPE' that I am now able to turn on and off by thinking about it and follows my mind and intent. This was not a result I trained for, nor asked for. The Qi I experience was developed naturally while standing in these static postures...almost effortlessly. The only requirement was doing the work.

 

As far as a martial aspect goes, this energy can be guided and allows for spontaneous dynamic movement in any direction. I have never trained this for fighting...it has just been another wonderful side effect of doing the postures. For the fighting, I believe one should focus on Yichuan. I have not studies it at all so I cannot offer any input on it.

 

I had read early on in some studies about "movement without movement". Although I tried to wrap my mind around it, I never really understood it until I stood still for long durations doing zhan zhuang. I soon felt energy growing inside and it quickly began to flow. It felt as though there was a tide or body of water internally that moved about and filled me as I stood there.

 

I would like to touch base on the angle of the legs, what is right or wrong, etc. In my own experience, the energy flowed and developed more as I RELAXED more. Some days I practice high, some low. I am at a point where I can relax at either. If you train low to build leg muscles, please realize you are probably just doing a static squat and missing the point of the Zhan Zhuang. You should strive to lower at a comfortable level and stay relaxed in order to build the most energy. Each practitioner should know his/her own limits and progress accordingly.

 

The most important thing I can offer is to let go of Western thinking...push,pull,lift,resist, etc. This is NOT that kind of exercise. Instead, focus on soft, hollow, sung, sinking, light, relax...

 

If anyone would like to know more about my experiences, please email me. I am happy to share.

 

I sincerely hope that I have not offended any member in my post.

 

Take care!

[i am]

Thank you very much Wisdom Seeker! Don't worry. It's an internet forum and people will be people. Don't let it scare you or put you off. Or do. Either way...but it seems like we could make use of your experiences, so it'd be better if you stayed.

 

 

The 90 degree(low Zhuang, 低樁) is the ultimate stance only can be done by Shaolin monks.

 

 

 

I will need to tell the Wudang master I met, and his disciple, that they are Shaolin monks and didn't even know it! They ought to be happy!

[ChiDragon]

i am,,,

Please do...!!! I am sure that they don't mind for being Taoists. They probably get a good laugh out of it.....

Edited November 29, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

"The knees are at ~ 90 degrees because his butt is lowered (low stance). As sung increases, the stance will automatically become lower. That doesn't mean one has to fight through pain and physical damage to do that."

 

It was understood that one can do 90 degree stance, one had went through all the pain and torture from the practice in the earlier stage. His muscles are well adapt to the stressfulness. You have too much emphasis on the sung. That was for the amateurs. The 90 degree cannot be done with the state of sung. Have you ever tried the 90 degree stance....???

 

Yes. When I used to practice Goju Ryu, we stood for significant amounts of time in kiba dachi...it is nothing like standing as done in taiji.Kiba dachi is a lot like what your idea of standing is...

 

I was in my late teens to early 20s back then. I know suffer from the damage I did to my body back then (like walking in zenkutsu dachi on asphalt in my bare feet, climbing the steps of a stadium on my hands with a training partner holding up my legs, knuckle, wrist and finger push-ups on concrete floors, etc) till date.

 

I didn't feel it then...I feel it now (after 2 decades).

[joeblast]

The 90 degree(low Zhuang, 低樁) is the ultimate stance only can be done by Shaolin monks.

 

90 degree stanceby Shaolin a monk while he is eating rather than meditating:

 

http://www.snowyy.co...rse-stance.html

Eating, sitting, standing, crapping...all exercising awareness and being fully present, for this guy

 

"The knees are at ~ 90 degrees because his butt is lowered (low stance). As sung increases, the stance will automatically become lower. That doesn't mean one has to fight through pain and physical damage to do that."

 

It was understood that one can do 90 degree stance, one had went through all the pain and torture from the practice in the earlier stage. His muscles are well adapt to the stressfulness. You have too much emphasis on the sung. That was for the amateurs. The 90 degree cannot be done with the state of sung. Have you ever tried the 90 degree stance....???

You've got people railing on your because your verbiage is authoritatively presented, but you miss very significant fundamental points. I'm not sure how long exactly I can do the 90 degree stance, but if it aint sung, you're not doing it correctly. Need to be as sung as possible in as many places as possible - that of course doesnt mean relax muscles that are needed to keep you in the stance. But man, 90 horse stance for me is 2 things: reverse breathing, and sung. I get those two things right (and mind my alignments) and that's it right there.

[Ish]

Master Feng Zhiqiang mentioned how excessively low stances causes chi to leak out of the perineum. He explains that this chi can not be felt like normal so one does not even know they are damaging their body.

 

 

Interesting parallel with "yin chi" from Mo Pai which supposedly can't be felt until a certain level of development.

[ChiDragon]

I will need to tell the Wudang master I met, and his disciple, that they are Shaolin monks and didn't even know it! They ought to be happy!

 

i am,,,

Please do...!!! I am sure that they don't mind for being Taoists. They probably get a good laugh out of it.....

 

Ohhh...

I forgot one more thing. Please tell them sorry for me that I excluded them.......

[ChiDragon]

You've got people railing on your because your verbiage is authoritatively presented, but you miss very significant fundamental points. I'm not sure how long exactly I can do the 90 degree stance, but if it aint sung, you're not doing it correctly. Need to be as sung as possible in as many places as possible - that of course doesnt mean relax muscles that are needed to keep you in the stance. But man, 90 horse stance for me is 2 things: reverse breathing, and sung. I get those two things right (and mind my alignments) and that's it right there.

 

When most people speaking about "sung", they did not include the phrases as indicated in bold. That was what threw me off. Anyway, if one can do the 90 degree stance, one already has all the tools to do it by all means. At that level, all the minor details are no longer significant. Thus it becomes natural to the practitioner.

 

 

PS....

Is there a real need to repeat all the amateur stuffs at a high level of discussion. All those are understood. Don't you think.....???

Edited November 29, 2012 by ChiDragon

[mYTHmAKER]

I can only do the 45 degree stance for a long period of time without any pain.

 

45 degree stance

 

Can we see YOU in a 45 degree stance not someone off the internet. Unless of course that is you I apologize

[ChiDragon]

Can we see YOU in a 45 degree stance not someone off the internet. Unless of course that is you I apologize

 

No, it is not me, but I will make a video of me for you as soon as the weather permits. It's a rainy day here right now....!!!

Edited November 29, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Bubbles]

Is there a real need to repeat all the amateur stuffs at a high level of discussion. All those are understood. Don't you think.....???

 

Where in this thread the "high level of dicussion" has taken place?

 

I wish you the best in your practice ChiDragon and I am happy that you have received some real health benefits from it.

 

I will try (sincerely) to avoid bothering you anymore with my comments.

Edited November 29, 2012 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

bubbles....

This thread may not be the "high level of discussion" has taken place. However, the 90 degree stance is certainly a high level of practice.....

 

You are welcome to bother me anytime....

Edited November 29, 2012 by ChiDragon

[mYTHmAKER]

No, it is not me, but I will make a video of me for you as soon as the weather permits. It's a rainy day here right now....!!!

Great

[Bubbles]

You are welcome to bother me anytime....

 

If my bothering contribution is welcome, that's a totally different story...

I may come back for more from time to time!

[ChiDragon]

mYTHmAKER.....

Here is my video done indoor. At the end, I showed balancing myself with one bent leg as the result from the practice.

 

Edited November 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[mYTHmAKER]

mYTHmAKER.....

Here is my video done indoor. At end, I showed balancing myself with one bent leg as the result from the practice.

 

Imho your back is excellent. In the lower stance you have too much stress on your knees as they project forward.

But what do I know

Thanks for the video.

[dwai]

Imho your back is excellent. In the lower stance you have too much stress on your knees as they project forward.

But what do I know

Thanks for the video.

I feel he's not relaxed in his shoulders and neck either. Also, his elbows are not bent (which is probably why he is carrying tension in his shoulders and neck).

 

But just like you, what do I know?

[ChiDragon]

Imho your back is excellent. In the lower stance you have too much stress on your knees as they project forward.

But what do I know

Thanks for the video.

 

Thanks. Here is what I am experiencing.

 

On the lower stance, I felt a tremendous stress on the upper and the lower legs. I only feel the stress on the knees if they were passed the toes. If I have to keep the back straight, at lower stance, I have to move my back backward to align with the vertical and bend my knees to go pass the toes and move the hands forward to keep myself in balance.

 

At the high Zhuang, there was less stress on the legs, almost none. Thus people can stand for hours and meditate if they wish. At 45 degrees, the stress is tolerable for some people with a good physical condition. They can stand for a limited of time. I think the 45 degrees stance has the best effect; some might have some moderate sore or pain in the muscles at the beginning. However, the muscles will adapt to the stress and getting less sore as the practice progresses.