The Significance in height of of the upper thighs of Zhan Zhuang

[i am]

 

 

On the lower stance, I felt a tremendous stress on the upper and the lower legs. I only feel the stress on the knees if they were passed the toes. If I have to keep the back straight, at lower stance, I have to move my back backward to align with the vertical and bend my knees to go pass the toes and move the hands forward to keep myself in balance.

 

 

 

This was what my teacher in Wudang said "is going to be my issue" after seeing my difficulty with it. When beginning some forms, we were to sink down so that our legs were bent at 90 degrees, back straight, without the knees going past the toes. I could not do all those at once. But then I had never tried, before that time.

 

They seemed to have no issue with it.

[mYTHmAKER]

I feel he's not relaxed in his shoulders and neck either. Also, his elbows are not bent (which is probably why he is carrying tension in his shoulders and neck).

 

But just like you, what do I know?

 

Relaxing feeling the weight of the elbows would relax his shoulders and neck. Elbows are key in relaxing and dropping shoulders. But hey what do i know

[ChiDragon]

This was what my teacher in Wudang said "is going to be my issue" after seeing my difficulty with it. When beginning some forms, we were to sink down so that our legs were bent at 90 degrees, back straight, without the knees going past the toes. I could not do all those at once. But then I had never tried, before that time.

 

They seemed to have no issue with it.

 

We are only humans and start doing the practice in the later stage of our lives. The Wudang Taoists are super humans because they were practicing since they were young. If you can do the 90 degree stance right away at the school, then you would be as good as them and don't need to go there in the first place.

Edited November 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

dwai and mYTHmAKER......

I was wearing something black; one cannot see too good that my elbows were bent not which it was. I know you guys like to put more emphasis on relaxing the shoulders which is fine. However, IMO, the legs are more important to keep the body in place than the shoulders. When one run into a dangerous situation, one would rather be concerned about the strength of the legs more than the relaxing shoulders. Don't you think....???

[Aetherous]

...nah.

Edited November 30, 2012 by turtle shell

[Celestial]

Every week there seems to be a new thread that pops up regarding the following subjects:

• Zhan Zhuang
  
• Mo Pai
  
• Gary J. Clyman™
  

Each thread consists of the usual suspects arguing over said topic.

 

But hey, what do I know?

[ChiDragon]

dwai and mYTHmAKER......

I was wearing something black; one cannot see too good that my elbows were bent not which it was. I know you guys like to put more emphasis on relaxing the shoulders which is fine. However, IMO, the legs are more important to keep the body in place than the shoulders. When one run into a dangerous situation, one would rather be concerned about the strength of the legs more than the relaxing shoulders. Don't you think....???

 

Well, second thought, you guys are right about relaxing shoulders but it is only can be done at high zhuang. However, at the 45 degree stance, the body weight was shifted to the rear because the knees must kept behind the toes. In order to keep the body in balance, I have to extend my hands forward to counterbalance my body weight from falling off. That was why my shoulders were not relaxed even though my elbows were still bent.

[dwai]

dwai and mYTHmAKER......

I was wearing something black; one cannot see too good that my elbows were bent not which it was. I know you guys like to put more emphasis on relaxing the shoulders which is fine. However, IMO, the legs are more important to keep the body in place than the shoulders. When one run into a dangerous situation, one would rather be concerned about the strength of the legs more than the relaxing shoulders. Don't you think....???

 

) when you run into a dangerous situation, you get into zhang zuang?

 

[ChiDragon]

) when you run into a dangerous situation, you get into zhang zuang?

 

LOL.....

 

No, Zhan Zhuang will prepare you for a better physical shape to handle the most adverse situation that one might encounter. At least, ZZ will give one a better chance of survival.

 

ZZ is very important in balancing one's body. If one can do the 90 degree stance, then it will help to prevent one from falling off the edge of a cliff.

 

Let's assume that you are standing at the edge of a cliff for some reason. Somehow, your back was face outward due to a situation which causing you to fall. For most people, they will fall off due to their weights by gravity. However, for an ZZ practitioner, one can control the weights by Fa Jin to put all the strength on the legs to hold the body in place.

Edited November 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Ish]

Incorrect, simplistic and misleading, sorry. You need to look at correct alignment rather than height. Very clearly discussed in here by a student of Chen Xiaowang's son, Chen YJ who practices ZZ on an average of two hours a day (aside from his TJ practice).

 

Nice link Gerard, one for the bookmarks.

[Bubbles]

However, for an ZZ practitioner, one can control the weights by Fa Jin to put all the strength on the legs to hold the body in place.

 

Since you use zhan zhuang only to strengthen your leg muscles ( which is quite weird, should I remind you? ), can you explain why you prefer this method over other methods to build your leg strength?

 

Would you mind being more specific about how Fa Jin can save your life here?

Edited November 30, 2012 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

Fa Jin is the ability to have any individual muscle in the body to exert a force. I did not prefer this method. It was will known by the martial artists. If one goes to Kung Fu school, at least in China anyway, the first thing was asked by the Sifu to have the students to do zhan zhang before teaches them anything else. The Sifu will go to each student and give a push to check the ma bu(馬步) daily. If the student got pushed out of place, then the student failed the test. So, the ZZ continuous until the student passed the test.

 

Zhan Zhuang give a foundation for martial artists to anchor their feet to the ground for stability in balancing the body. Like I said before and I will say it again. Zhan Zhuang is to build up the muscle tone in the leg muscles. As soon one bends the legs, the leg muscles contract automatically. The amount of contraction depends on the bending angle of the knee, the smaller the angle the tighter the muscles. You can always try that yourself at anytime.

 

If you understand how the muscle works, you will know that when muscle contracts the biochemical energy, ATP, will be generated. The tighter the muscles the more ATP energy will be generated. In order to keep the ATP energy going, one must be continuously breathing in the oxygen to react with the glucose. If one does not understand this much about muscle contractions, then there is no longer to continue with this thread.

[Bubbles]

It is a tedious task to respond to all the statements which in my opinion have nothing to do with zhan zhuang. It has been done many times here at TTB, and as Celestial has said it, this topic pops up regularly with the same result.

 

I remember quite well what I learned in my biology courses but what you describe has not much to do with Fa Jin, it has to do with using brute force.

 

so, indeed, I find it reasonable to stop feeding this thread.

 

Your unlimited stubbornness and reluctance to question your own understanding is a great source of teaching for me. For this, at least, I thank you.

 

Good luck

[ChiDragon]

In order to Fa Jin (發勁), one has know what is 勁. Please tell me what you think that is instead of not what it is. Anybody want to try to give a good description. Please keep in mind, what is 勁??? Not how to Fa Jin.

 

Let's make this a higher level of discussion conducted in a more professional manner. I thank you in advance.

Edited November 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Celestial]

I train in both weight lifting and Zhan Zhuang. I do squats, lunges (with weights), calf raises, and stiff-leg dead lifts -- nothing works my legs more than a deep horse stance, or standing in a Zhan Zhuang posture for long periods of time.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZf4taeqht0

 

There are no subtitles in this video, but it's pretty self-explanatory. For those that don't know, the small asian man is Chen Xiaowang (as stated in the video's title). He was born and raised in the Chen Family Village and is a direct descendent to the great Grandmaster Chen Fake. http://en.wikipedia....i/Chen_Xiaowang

 

Xiaowang doesn't do any weight lifting legwork, instead he does extensive Qigong, and Zhan Zhuang. The proof - as they say - is in the pudding.

 

 

Notice how the knees are barely bent, as they do NOT pass over the toes. This is coming from a Grandmaster who knows more about this stuff than all of us combined. Please stop the ignorance. Thank you.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Celestial

[Bubbles]

Let's make this a higher level of discussion conducted in a more professional manner. I thank you in advance.

 

I am happy to say that I am not "professional" enough to sustain a high level discussion with people here.

 

I am also very happy that Celestial has posted a video of Chen Xiaowang. I am learning Chen Style and he is my model. Zhan Zhuang is not just about the legs, it works towards a perfect integration of body and mind. Without this, there is no Taijiquan, no Fa Jin, nothing. Having strong legs is not enough.

 

I am done here (and there) and I ask permission to retire.

[Celestial]

I am happy to say that I am not "professional" enough to sustain a high level discussion with people here.

 

I am also very happy that Celestial has posted a video of Chen Xiaowang. I am learning Chen Style and he is my model. Zhan Zhuang is not just about the legs, it works towards a perfect integration of body and mind. Without this, there is no Taijiquan, no Fa Jin, nothing. Having strong legs is not enough.

 

I am done here (and there) and I ask permission to retire.

 

Yeah, Xiaowang is great. Where are you learning Chen-style?

 

Nvm, you said you were done here. I'll just take this into a PM.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Celestial