Religion is the poison of Spirituality

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Simple_Jack]

Peace in the heart and mind will show themselves in the way you treat others. If someone upsets you to the point you can't be civil, then oftentimes it's best to just say nothing.

 

Aaron

Ok, yeah it was unnecessary, mean & snobbish for me to say that, sorry.

 

I agree, it would be great if there wasn't any need for religion: if people were more self-aware and in-tune with their potential to discover inner-truth and to live harmoniously based off of that....But, it's inevitable that people are going to flock to religion, for guiding principles on how to lead their life, as a refuge when life circumstances deal an unfavorable card or to find meaning in the daily rounds of everyday life.

 

That's why I think you should relax, let goooooooooooo....Why invest so much energy and effort in to keeping this grudge against people's faith in religion???

 

It doesn't have to be a bane to your existence or pose as a hindrance to free thinking....Religion has its relative use, no???

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[konchog uma]

Hehehe. Go ahead. Give it a try. You might be pleased with the thoughts you have all on your own!

 

oh im pleased with my own thoughts. i am also pleased with the thoughts of the sages, buddhas and bodhisattvas that i have chosen to follow. sometimes my thoughts are deluded, sometimes they are wrong. So i am pleased to have the compass and insights of those that have gone before me on my path. I find it of great benefit and I would not be where i am today on my own, thats for damn sure.

 

The irony is that another, more famous figure has been quoted as saying religion is poison: Chairman Mao. That kind of extreme point of view should be spoken out against in the name of all the good guidance and moral support (no pun intended) that religion, organized spirituality, mystical philosophies, and all the rest of it have given people over the ages. I consider myself honored to follow in the footsteps of the great practitioners of my tradition, and i wouldn't change a word of the dharma if i had the chance.

 

None of that because i can't or don't think for myself. On the contrary, i have analyzed my own mind ad nauseum and pored over the situation with logic and reason, and it precisely because of the time spent thinking about the subject for myself that i am grateful for the presence of the dharma in my life.

 

I think Aaron's point of view is born of the same shortsighted ignorance that razed daoist temples and buddhist monasteries in china to the ground, that invaded and subjugated Tibet, and that caused immeasurable harm to the spiritual traditions of once-great china. So i speak in disagreement.

 

Believe me i can think for myself

[skydog]

if one blasphemes the blasphemer out of blaspheming one becomes and feeds the blasphemes a bit more...

its like bulling the bully to stop the bulling... only makes one the bulling of bullies ... rather than directing oneself and others to play nice... yea I too used to believe that ' sometimes I think the negative moods also help growth' then realized that's just a schema the negative uses to keep me suffering in pain wanting to gain... NOW i rather play, dance and have fun while cultivating and gaining strength flexibility and much more... Sometimes I ignore the blasphemers and sometimes I recognize them ... whatever I do it's to show them a better way to be...

 

et thoughts I was being silly with the last line. You dont think you have learnt anything whilst suffering or that people dont draw boundaries in anger? Yeh you have a point that maybe this can be used as the egos unconscious desire to suffer, dont fully agree though.

 

peacccceeeeeeee

[Simple_Jack]

For me it has to do with the actual exposition of the truth... some hold a grudge against that which would exposes the farce they want to cultivate and hold as true... Dogmas in a way tell the truth without proving it... of course here I am assuming that the dogmatic statements happen to be incontrovertibly true because they happen to be incontrovertibly true based on what happens to be... evidently some statements presented as true are fictitious ... though some want to claim they are true... and sometimes its one way, those who agree get it right and those who disagree get it wrong... (the reverse would have a similar situation in reverse form. the case of what be wrong - those who agree get it wrong and those who disagree may get it right). of course there are those who seek to export the truth of the matter... the key question resides in what be the truth of the matter...

Hey, you know me man: I gotta keep the lie constantly chuggin along at a steady pace.

 

Though, I'm in agreement with this guy:

 

 

http://justdharmaquotes.wordpress.com/category/longchenpa/

 

Freedom attends reality:

Free at the core, any effort is wasted;

Timelessly free, no release is needed;

Free in itself, no corrective is possible;

Directly free, released in seeing;

Completely free, pure in nature;

Constantly free, familiarization is redundant;

And naturally free, freedom cannot be contrived.

 

Yet ‘freedom’ is just a verbal convention,

And who is ‘realized’ and who is not?

How could anyone be ‘liberated’?

How could anyone be lost in samsara?

Reality is free of all delimitation!

 

Freedom is timeless, so constantly present;

Freedom is natural, so unconditional;

Freedom is direct, so pure vision obtains;

Freedom is unbounded, so no identity possible;

Freedom is unitary, so multiplicity is consumed.

 

Conduct changes nothing – our lives are already free!

Meditation achieves nothing – our minds are already free!

The view realizes nothing – all dogma is freedom!

Fruition demands nothing – we are free as we are!

 

- Longchenpa

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[skydog]

Sure have learned stuff whilst suffering and drew boundaries in anger... stuff I could had learned much better by other means... say by being silly in a fun way... 'constantly chuggin along at a steady pace' the truth, and love...

 

At one time I used to want to be silly and funny using sarcasms ... then I learned that these where hidden aggressions and as MH said did discard that way of being rather than sought to falsly justify that way... (as just being silly and funny ways of being)...

 

You are right there good point....

 

Yes.. I agree.

 

Although I do find the word "blasphemy" so cultish, brainwashing, and stereotypical of dogma and ignorance as well as obnoxious and offensive that I much rather laugh at it than indulge in a worse form of negativity.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Marblehead]

Believe me i can think for myself

Okay. You convinced me. Actually, my question wasn't all that serious but you expressed your answer very well.

[Aaron]

According to spirituality, there is no such thing as poison: such a thing, ultimately, could only appear that way to the as yet ignorant.

 

Later on, what was "poison" would be recognised as a helper along the way out of ignorance.

 

Hmm... nice rhetoric, but no substance. You're using abstract notions that have no real meaning. The subtle jab that I was ignorant was very nice. Well played. I feel very insignificant now, the wounds to my self image may never heal... oh wait, no, I'm fine. Sorry, false alarm.

 

Aaron

[skydog]

sinansencer,

 

From what you wrote I believe you desire to cultivate the notions of ... right, good points...agreement... and share the notion of

' I much rather laugh at it than...' cultivate the notions associated to negativity... or to frame it in appositive way cultivate the notions associated to positives and laugh and play and dance and learn and a bunch of other good stuff... now for a bit of reality check I sort of edited out some of your words and left certain words you wrote (which 'you cultivate') ... I hold what follows may be a bit of a shocker to you... again its just a list of the notion within your post that you mentioned... I wonder if in fact those are the notions that you want to cultivate? Actually from what you wrote I believe you desire to cultivate other stuff and took the risk of doing this hoping it will have wonderful results... Personally I been working with this sort of thing for quite some time... in my own writing... working hard to bias towards the positive... recognizing the words for what they cultivate and rewriting what I state to actually be congruent in what I claim to desire and what I put forth... in practice what you posted indirectly 'cultivates':...

 

 

 

... in principle I believe you desire to cultivate something else and desired to share with you how one needs to be careful of what one cultivates... Even this post that includes those words cultivates them... I think I also included other better form of positive 'indulgences' in this post to bias it all towards the good and hopefully you will see it and say yea I get it... hope thats the case will wait to your response to see what happens next...

 

just be careful of over the top repressive positivity..theres a fine line between repressing and destroying your energies and flow and focusing on certain issues a bit more than others.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[oildrops]

According to spirituality, there is no such thing as poison: such a thing, ultimately, could only appear that way to the as yet ignorant.

 

Later on, what was "poison" would be recognised as a helper along the way out of ignorance.

 

I agree. I see this idea as part of a basic foundation for going deeper with anything. Fear and regret are both huge obstacles, and not tied with the present.

 

I could go to church Sunday morning, of a religion that I almost entirely disagree with, and I could learn something about myself, and the world.

 

While I see no reason to fear ideas, I do see reason to influence them and to let them influence me and challenge my perception.

[konchog uma]

Hmm... nice rhetoric, but no substance. You're using abstract notions that have no real meaning. The subtle jab that I was ignorant was very nice. Well played. I feel very insignificant now, the wounds to my self image may never heal... oh wait, no, I'm fine. Sorry, false alarm.

 

Aaron

 

"The basic principle of samaya (tantric vows) is to regard the world as sacred and to avoid falling into the degradation of conventional thoughts and judgements."

 

Reginald A. Ray Vajra Secret: The Tantric Buddhism of Tibet

 

just in case you actually believed that there is no substance behind the idea of a sacred or uplifted world. There has been so much written on the subject it would boggle your mind, might even un-degrade it lol, but i just happened to be reading that passage and thought i would quote it here since it was relevant. The fact that the principle cat cites is the basis for the very vajrayana path seems significant, maybe even "substantial".

 

And i dont think she was saying that some people are ignorant to make you feel insubstantial or butt-hurt. I think she was saying it because, believe it or dont, some people really are ignorant! lol

 

btw by "conventional" in the aforequoted passaged Ray is referring to dualistic or comparative thoughts and judgements.

Edited November 29, 2012 by anamatva

[konchog uma]

sectarian prejudice and spiritual elitism (my way is the best way!) is the poison of spirituality.

 

spiritual materialism, something well displayed in the OP, is the poison of spirituality.

 

religion just happens, its human nature, theres nothing anyone can do to stop it, and belittling it only shows ones own sectarian prejudice and spiritual elitism!

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Religion is fine until it becomes a false idol and people hold it in higher esteem that it's teachings and practice, sometimes causing them to become sociopathic hypocrites when they draw a circle around themselves and say "everyone outside of this line needs to be sacrificed for our ideals." This does not always happen, but when it does... that is what happened...

 

 

Edited to add that - pretty much any idea can do the same when held in the same esteem as some hold religion(s).

Edited November 30, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Aaron]

Alright, for those who seem to believe that what I'm saying is poison, let me provide evidence, rather than supposition. Since this is supposed to be a Taoist forum, hence the name "Tao Bums", let me start with Lao Tzu...

 

Tao Te Ching

Chapter 38 (tr. John C. H. Wu)

 

 

HIGH Virtue is non-virtuous;

Therefore it has Virtue.

Low Virtue never frees itself from virtuousness;

Therefore it has no Virtue.

 

High Virtue makes no fuss and has no private ends

to serve:

Low Virtue not only fusses but has private ends to serve.

 

High humanity fusses but has no private ends to serve:

High morality not only fusses but has private ends

to serve.

High ceremony fusses but finds no response;

Then it tries to enforce itself with rolled-up sleeves.

 

Failing Tao, man resorts to Virtue.

Failing Virtue, man resorts to humanity.

Failing humanity, man resorts to morality.

Failing morality, man resorts to ceremony.

Now, ceremony is the merest husk of faith and loyalty;

It is the beginning of all confusion and disorder.

 

As to foreknowledge, it is only the flower of Tao,

And the beginning of folly.

 

Therefore, the full-grown man sets his heart upon

the substance rather than the husk;

Upon the fruit rather than the flower.

Truly, he prefers what is within to what is without.

 

Now it really shocks me that I have to explain this to Taoists, but the fact is Lao Tzu didn't believe in Taoism, he believed in learning through one's own experiences and relying, not on ceremony (prayers, rituals, dogma, etc.), or morality (a set code of religious conduct), but rather delving within ourselves to find the answer. Lao Tzu himself set down exactly what causes man to fail in achieving there connection with their true selves and it begins with one's reliance on religion, to fear what others have told you to fear, to not recognize the difference between "eh" and "Oh" because someone has told you there is no difference.

 

Those who are threatened by what I've said should examine their faith, for their lack of faith shows in their responses. A man of faith should read what I've said and simply shrug it off, but a man wavering in his faith will see what I've said as a threat to, not only his faith, but himself, for what is worse than being shown an inkling of the husk that they've allowed themselves to become?

 

Lao Tzu and Rumi both said this same thing, in fact it's plain as day, but the fact of the matter is most people are too afraid to examine reality on their own. They fear what they might find, or have been told they'll find, and rather than experience the truth, they accept lies, because the lies have flavor, taste, they are filled with rewards, while the truth is bland, tasteless, it's only reward is peace of mind and an awakening of the true you. The sad fact is most people are afraid because they confuse the true them with the them that they've been told they are.

 

How many times are people told they are evil at birth, or sinful. How many times have they been told that the urges they have should be repressed because they are wrong or sinful. How many times have they been told that their suffering is caused by their impure hearts? These are all lies.

 

Prayer, meditation, dancing, chanting, and anything else done in ceremony is worthless, it does not point towards the truth, but towards the ceremony itself. They are mere husks of spirituality, they lack any authenticity.

 

If you want authenticity, then you have to look beyond these things. If you're afraid or angry that someone might suggest you do so, ask yourself why? Because the truth is that the problem doesn't lie in what I've said, but in the fear you have of my words. Must you fear what others fear? What abysmal nonsense is this?

 

Aaron

[h.uriahr]

I think stupidity is the poison of pretty much everything.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Aaron]

sectarian prejudice and spiritual elitism (my way is the best way!) is the poison of spirituality.

 

spiritual materialism, something well displayed in the OP, is the poison of spirituality.

 

religion just happens, its human nature, theres nothing anyone can do to stop it, and belittling it only shows ones own sectarian prejudice and spiritual elitism!

 

I just wanted to respond real quickly, this is more rhetoric. You're using semantics to try and prove a point, with absolutely no real proof to back it up. You say spiritual materialism was displayed in the first post, can you pick out where I allude to that? Rather than argue like a politician and create evidence that doesn't exist, why don't you try and make a real argument based on real facts? From there we can actually have a discussion.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

Hi All,

 

I just want to say at this point that we should be careful so to not present anything that could be taken as a personal insult. Talking about religion is rather touchy because of the various beliefs people have regarding the religion they hold to.

 

I don't want to say anything at the moment that would be misunderstood as me taking one side or the other in this discussion.

 

Granted that I am an Atheist so we know where "I" stand in this discussion.

 

I think that a point being made here is the suggestion that the ceremony and dogma of religion gets in the way of our individual ability to experience our spiritual connection with the rest of the universe in our own natural way. And this is what I think true spirituality is - our individual, natural connection with all else.

 

Yes, I am still a Materialist too. Hehehe.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Isimsiz Biri]

Hmm.. i had always had the suspicion that the Marfia had some links with the muslim world.

 

There is a typing error, It is not marfia, it is marifa. You are making a nasty joke writing the letter "r" in small size, pretending it to be "Mafia" without "r". Not funny at all. Besides, we never make such jokes about Christianity because we show respect to faith of billions of people. Again the same topic. Where is your Adab? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adab_(Islam)) It seems it does not exist.